Gifted

<p>Emeraldkity, I am a school psychologist. Standardized, norm-referenced measures commonly used to assess processing speed inlcude the Woodcock Johnson Tests of Cognitive Abilities III and the Wechsler Intelligence Scale for Children 4th Edition (for kids 6 years-16-11 years old). Both instuments use multiple tests or subtests to make up the processing speed cluster (WJ III) and index (WISC-IV). The WJIII also has clusters that look at short-term memory and long-term retrival. The WISC-IV has some subtests that measure memory skills. These are but two instruments out there. There are many more.</p>

<p>When working with your assessment professional the more specific you can be in your concerns the better the assessment. For example, does your child have slow processing speed on tasks requiring a verbal or written response? Do long-term memory weaknesses show up when trying to retrieve verbally presented/auditory or visual information?</p>

<p>Good luck with your meeting.</p>

<p>calmom...So its more likely that my d's barrier is her perfectionism and attendant reluctance to use strategic short-cuts. Her best performance by far was on the verbal analogies, which of course are now removed from the test. </p>

<p>My d scored best in the analogies and as well as quantitive comparisons (95%) which was also removed. She also scored 100% on main idea but scored in the 25th percentile in CR (tone). This didn't surprise me at all. I have no doubt that she saw five correct answers.</p>

<p>She also has to better utilize the stategic short-cuts. </p>

<p>I am quite sure she is not dyslexic. But I do believe she has been able to compensate for her slow reading and she most likely has been compensating for quite some time, but we all have to compensate at some time. I also feel that when gifted children are in elementary school they learn they can still perform at very high levels with what I call "half listening". They can daydream, doodle, count the number of ceiling tiles etc....and still know exactly what the teacher is teaching. This becomes a habit. When they hit high school and the classes are more difficult it is a real shock when they can no longer "half listen. </p>

<p>I received a call this morning from the school psychologist and she met with my d teachers on Tuesday and they were in agreement that she is always the last one done and they all have allowed her extra time to finish tests. I knew the extra time was always given in elementary school because she was constantly out in the hall finishing her work and missed so much recess time. She has told me she is always the last one done on tests but I didn't realize she was given extra time by her high school teachers. The psychologish is going to sit down and talk with my d. on Monday. </p>

<p>My main concern is about her ability to keep up with the work load in college. Although our district is so, so challenging that I can't image college could be much more difficult in regards to work load. I have spoken to many of the graduates from our district and they are all in agreement when it comes to being prepared for college. Many of them feel that their Junior year in high school was much more difficult than their freshman year in college and they attended several of the top la schools. </p>

<p>Well I will close on that note. I have been given a wealth of advice. I don't believe I can "process" much more. lol (that is short for laugh out loud) I am going to take all of the suggestions and run with it. I will keep you posted on the results. I hope to be able to give back to some of you what you have given me.....I thank you from the bottom of my heart for listening...</p>

<p>Birdie -
glad that things are progressing. Best wishes to your & everyone else's kids in dealing with these nasty tests.</p>

<p>Birdie, my H and my S to some extent suffer from the same problems. My H is not a fast reader. He is a math wiz, truely. It's a joke at our house that Dad has read 5 books in the time we've been married, one of which is "The Indian in the Cupboard". If my H and I are reading an article together I finish so much faster than he does. The difference is that when he reads something he reads every word and I'll skim through parts. We process information differently. He can read directions once, follow them and preform very complicated tasks. I couldn't put together a bike for the life of me.</p>

<p>I am sure that my H would not do very well on todays SAT's. We went to college in the days when you took the ACT's once, picked a school and went. It was very different, no studying, no stress. My H is a very successful engineer with a Master's.</p>

<p>I hope that in today's very complicated college admissions, an adcom will be able to see past her SAT scores and see that she will be successful.</p>

<p>This thread has become very divided and I think that it has hurt feelings. I would like to comment on why. I think that people become very defensive when the word "gifted" comes into the equation.</p>

<p>I have very average children in a school system similar to Birdies. My SIL has chosen to put her kids in a TAG program in an inter-city. She is always saying (bragging!) about how her kids are so gifted and they just slide through school without any effort. Sometimes I think that it will take an act of God to get my oldest through HS. It is a lot of effort on his part and ours. My SIL also makes excuses all the time and blames the kids giftedness on how her children act. Rude-well Johnny is so gifted, he can't help it. Can't help out with chores-can't let Johnny do something so menial, he's gifted you know.</p>

<p>It drives me crazy. My kids are only average so I guess that I expect them to be polite, do chores and work hard. My H and I also comment that we must know all the vals in a 3 state area. Everybody else's kids are so perfect and ours are getting D's on their pre-calc quiz!</p>

<p>I hope that I am right when I say that I don't think that the attacks are directed towards Birdie. I just know that when I hear my SIL go on about her "gifted" children, it make me feel inadequate as a mother. That if only I had done something else maybe my kids would be gifted also. And if I am defensive about that, I'm sorry.</p>

<p>Birdie, I know what you mean about the "half listening".. I think my daughter definitely has that habit. What it leads to is jumping to conclusions before you have listened to the whole question... which can in turn be a pitfall on a test with deliberately misleading, "trick" questions and answers. In test jargon, they are called "distractors" -- a wrong answer deliberately tailored to look like it is probably right. </p>

<p>My son had the problem of always being the very last to be done with anything, including the very last kid to get his books put away in his backpack, and the last one out of the classroom each day. The problem went away after the intervention for dyslexia. I don't want to get hung up on labels -- "dyslexia" itself is a broad, generic term. The point is, what seemed like a personality trait (dawdler) - must have been due to something else. </p>

<p>If you don't get a label... or an easy fix ... for your daughter's characteristics, they should at least be taken into account in choosing a college. My guess is she would do best in a more flexible environment, emphasizing independent reading and research over in-class exams... unless that would be too open-ended for her. But there really is a wide range of choices for colleges, even in terms of the number of courses they expect students to take during their freshman year.</p>

<p>Birdie, it could also be that because your D has received some accomodation for her style of test taking that she has not felt pressured to speed it up which she may well have done if she were forced to do so. Maybe not, also, but what I am saying is that compensation for an issue can hinder improvement. I know that because my girls were such people pleasers and perfectionists in school, that some of their issues did not come to light until I put them in a rigorous private school. In the public school, the teachers had so much to deal with particularly with disruptive, needy kids, that quiet kids who took care of themselves and did their jobs were often rewarded but not carefully examined. It was not until they were not selected for the gifted program, that the flags went up. They did not score high enough on the screening test, and in fact, were not close, leaving the situation such that what do you do with kids who are at the top of the class with near perfect records who are not qualified for your gifted program? What do you tell those kids? The school had no good answers for us, so we pulled them out and put them in a school where most of the kids were academically oriented and the curriculum was more advanced. They were then able to climb as high as they could or wanted with no administrative obstacles. All of the kids who wanted to be treated as such were gifted at this independent school. And, lo and behold, these girls were still at the top of their class and excelled in all of the creative, gifted work as well. Both girls had sterling ECs, wonderful portfolios, but they did not test well. I am sure I could have raised those test scores by working with them on the test; that is what I do, after all, but they had so many other more worthwhile things to do than practicing filling in spaces on a sheet.</p>

<p>Calmom- thanks for responding.</p>

<p>calmom - you said "kids with extremely high IQ's or high levels of creativity in their thinking tend to mess up, because they out-think the test. They recognize the one wrinkle or exception that makes the "right" answer possibly "wrong" -- they find themselves mentally elimating every option. Or they read a passage and see something in it that others miss -- in English class their teacher is delighted at their profound observations, but on a standardized test, their thinking doesn't lead to the more prosaic answer the test-designers had in mind."</p>

<p>Thank you for this! Although my daughter is not a genius by any means, she is creative. We have been concerned about why her test scores did not match her GPA and other indicators. So my H and I went over some practice questions out loud with her to try to see what was happening. And what happened was exactly what you predicted - she analyzed every answer, and went over why certain answers could be right [but weren't]. And she went over certain exceptions for why the [right] answer might be wrong. What an eye-opener. Thanks so much! Not sure how to deal with this, but at least we have a lead on part of the problem.</p>

<p>An example that was given by a specialist in gifted education was the following. I'm sure it's apocryphal but it illustrates the gifted child's proclivity to think in different and unexpected ways.</p>

<p>The tester holds up his index finger and asks what's this? The choices on the tester's answer list are finger, index finger, number one, pointer. The child responds "a digit". And gets marked wrong.</p>

<p>momrath - interesting.</p>

<p>When my daughter was in first grade, the teacher called me and said my D had a problem, because when she did crayons in school, she sometimes colored people's faces green. I asked my daughter if she colored faces green. Yes, Mom. Why do you color faces green? Because they're pretty that way, Mom. Oh, I said. Okay, that's fine. Case closed (for us!) Our schools really are not digit-friendly!</p>

<p>hayden...That reminds me of a story about a 5 year old that colored everything black. The teacher became concerned and called the parents, then the psychologist entered the picture and the testing began and so on and so on. To make a long story short someone finally took the time to ask the 5 year old why he colored everything black. He said, " By the time I get to the crayon box, that is the only color left". I am in agreement with your d....green faces are pretty.</p>

<p>Birdie - LOL. As I was sitting here, worried about my d taking her SAT II's right now, you really gave me a laugh. Thanks!</p>

<p>Birdie, LOL from here too. One of mine would always color everything in one color His reason was that he did not want to bother changing crayons. Coloring, art, were not his areas of interest and that really literally "colored" his teachers' perspectives and appraisals of him when he was younger and when coloring was an importan activity. When he got into highschool, it became a total non issue.</p>

<p>If all else fails you could consider including documentation of her high scores on the untimed tests in her application as a supplement.</p>

<p>I have stayed out of this fracas because, as many have noted, there can be some strong opinions on either side and, yes, I agree, people have been more contentious on CC lately. (Someone on another thread suggested that we all collectively take a day off from posting... maybe thats not a bad idea).</p>

<p>Those who have read some of my past posts know what I do for a living, and know that I feel that testing certainly has its appropriate place in understanding how we learn, and if we learn differently (I prefer the term "learning differences" to "learning disabilities" to help people understand the process of learning). </p>

<p>Testing IS appropriate to rule in or rule out a problem, or to identify learnng styles. However, I would NOT put it off, as some have suggested. Things do take time. If you are going to have your child tested privately, it takes time to get on their schedule for an appointment, to get the testing completed, scored, written up, reviewed in a follow-up appointment, etc. If it is felt that the child has learning issues that may support accomodations at school, you will next have to meet with the school LD specialist. In some states, they do not have to accept an outside psych/neuropsych eval. So when you (and by "you" I am speaking to the collective group here, not to any one person) meet with your school, it is best to go in with the attitude that you are all on the same team trying to problem-solve together. I would strongly recommend not going in with an adversarial tone. That will not get you very far. </p>

<p>While technically what the above school psych said is true, that the guidelines in the schools are that a student may qualify for accomodations if they are not performing on their academic level, there is also a lot of wiggle room to assess the "potential vs performance" discrepancy. That is, if you can demonstrate a significant difference between a students potential (as based on some tests) vs their performance (on academic or cognitive measures) you can document a disability. Keep in mind, however, that School Psychologists are very overloaded these days. Between budget cutbacks cutting back staff and administrative help, the psychologists are on overload. Add to that the fact that many, if not most health insurance policies will no longer cover any testing for "developmental or learning issues", they are refusing to pay for diagnostic testing, and are trying to push it back into the school system. The poor school psycholgists get even more burdened. Then, add to it the fact that many places are now requiring that a child be tested in the school within 6 weeks of the referral for testing (and the referral can in many places be made by the parent), and WHEW, the poor school psychologist. No wonder they might be disinclined to do testing they felt might not be warranted.</p>

<p>Here's they important thing. Since Collegeboared removed the * from their score reporting (that used to indicate that a test was taken in a non-standardized fashion), yes, many have tried to see if they can qualify for accomodations. Whether or not they are "gaming" the system is an opinion. Some preferred in the past not to take nonstandardized tests because they feared the * would stigmatize them when adcoms were reviewing files. So now more people are comfortable taking nonstandardized tests because it won't be flagged on their record. However, in response, Collegeboard and ACT have tightened up their criteria to qualify for accomodations.</p>

<p>With The Collegeboard, you have to have qualified for the accomodation(s) in your home school and have USED them for at least 4 months before you can get then on the SATs. That is, these accomodations have to have been in place for your child and used by them for 4 mos before they will be considered by Collegeboard. ACT seems to be even tighter with their policies. I have seen many requests sent to ACT for accomodations kicked back to the parent for further documentation of the duration and pervasiveness of the disability in order for them to consider it. This is not an easy process. It takes a long time these days. If your child does qualify, if you are patient and can provide the satisfactory documentation, you can get it. Those that do not qualify will be screened out. It is unfair to assume that anyone who asks for accomodations will easily get them and is therefore "gaming" the system. the "system" is not foolish. Give them a little credit.</p>

<p>Do not wait until the last minute. It may take several weeks minimum to get an appointment with a private psychologist/neuropsychologist and you then do not want to tell them that you need the finished report in a week. It takes time to gather records (whatever you can bring with you to the appointments will be very helpful-- previous testing, school work samples, medical records etc may all be important-- ask the Dr. what they want and do the legwork for them), to score the tests, to write the report, get it back from the transcriptioninst, make corrections, etc. Remember, you are working as a team. If you inadvertently come across as unreasunable or demanding, whether it be with the psychologist or with the school, it will not likely work well for you. This is a process that can take time and patience. You might be asked by ACT or Collegeboard for additional testing. Then you have to get back to the psychologist for some additional testing. And round and round it goes. So please, plan ahead. After all, isn't much of this about not running out of time???</p>

<p>jym626,
thanks heads-up on the time constraints - my son was down to the wire last year with just the SAT's and II's and a couple of retakes.</p>

<p>ohio_mom-
You are most welcome! By the way, and totally off-topic, does anyone else find it amusing/entertaining that speckledegg and birdie are conversing back and forth on this thread?? Especially at mothers day? How cute.</p>

<p>jym626 </p>

<p>Thanks so much for the information. I am assuming you are a psychologist? It was never my intention to ask for more time on the SAT. I believe someone made the suggestion. I just wanted to be sure if there was a problem, we would catch it before my d went off to college.</p>

<p>Or it can just be a condition called TEST WHAMMY? I found that to be such a great way to describe what might be happening to my d and many others during their Junior year. I think the term came from ohio_mom. </p>

<p>jym626
"I agree, people have been more contentious on CC lately. (Someone on another thread suggested that we all collectively take a day off from posting... maybe thats not a bad idea)."</p>

<p>I was presently surprised to receive so many pm's from ccer's who apologized for some of the comments that were posted. Many also shared your same thought. The pm's proves they are alot of good people here. Thanks to all of you for the pm's, you are my kind of people.......you care! </p>

<p>jym26
...... my d was referred to as "my lil chick" lol</p>

<p>Happy Mothers Day to all of you!</p>

<p>Hi Birdie-
Yes I am a psychologist (specialty in neuropsychology- hence the shameless plug). As Robyrm said earlier (and I am rephrasing it), there can be a lot of overlap between issues associated with giftedness, test anxiety, perfectionism, learning differences (such as processing speed), etc. Bear with me as I try to describe this, but I often feel that really bright kids, when they are formulating answers in their head, have a lot more "file drawers" of information in their head to sift through. They have a lot of thoughts, knowledge, information, ideas, etc. and it takes time to wade through all this in their heads. They may think of multiple ways to answer a question or to go about calculating a math problem. Is this a processing speed issue? Sure can be. It has to do with the automaticity of processing. The buzz words in the field these days are cognitive fluency and cognitive efficiency. This is not OCD. Perfectionism can be one trait of an obsessive-compulsive PERSONALITY style or even personality disorder, but that is diagnostically very different from an obsessive-compulsive DISORDER. Lets not go there. Thats a topic for a different discussion.</p>

<p>At any rate, I am taking your term "test whammy" to mean test anxiety. Is that how you mean it??? Could you clarify it so I can respond more appropriately to what you see happening for your daughter? And by the way, if she qualifies for and deserves extended time on the SAT, she should apply of it. There is nothing wrong with that. The only issue, as people have mentioned, is that these poor kids will be taking the SAT II for a gazillion hours!!! Hope they throw some food at them during breaks!</p>

<p>Jym -- what's your opinion of the tests themselves?</p>

<p>My daughter's experience with AP's appears totally different than the SAT/ACT. Of course we don't have scores back yet, but she feels very calm and comfortable with studying, and confident of her abilities. But I think that's because the APs are tied to very concrete subject areas -- you know what is going to be on those tests. To my daughter, the SAT seems like a series of trick questions.</p>

<p>As a psychologist, do you think the SAT has validity for what it purportedly tests for? And what do you think it is supposed to test for? Does it have a cultural bias? Would you feel that knowing SAT results would be helpful if you were called upon to assess a teenager for possible learning problems? </p>

<p>I'm not a psychologist, but I was a lawyer, which is why I am so good at bombarding experts with questions. ;)</p>

<p>Seriously, I don't mean to put you on the spot if you don't feel like getting into this debate ... I just would value your insights.</p>