<p>Don't most people who are tops in entertainment do college as an afterthought if at all?? Sounds like a huge waste to me not to mention the low probabilty of earning enough to pay back a big loan..</p>
<p>Sometimes, putting all the numbers on spreadsheet doesn't tell the whole story. There are some kids that really should be in some programs - and it sounds as if this may be the case here. The one caveat I would follow would be to make sure you can get the plus loan paid off by retirement time. </p>
<p>If your d did scurry off to audition, I'll bet she does have the drive to succeed. As a mom, I would be furious at her, but back in a little corner of my head, where the younger me still exists, I would be smiling.</p>
<p>I don't think anyone doubts that Tisch is a fine, fine, fine school, perhaps the best of its kind, and perhaps uniquely so. I also don't think there is anyone who believes that school is the only way into a serious career in musical theatre. And I also don't think there is anyone who believes that it is likely that a Tisch grad is likely to be able to pay back anything really significant in the way of loans soon after graduation. (Could hit the jackpot of course; but then you could hit the jackpot without college at all.)</p>
<p>I agree with Sooz when she says "In my view, a college education is not measured in "worth" by what income you make when you get out." So my warning is that you just make sure, if you decide to go that route, you'll be able to hack it financially. Because, as you note, the NYU BFA is a "dream thing", not a life necessity, and, likely, not even a musical theater career necessity.</p>
<p>Put it another way - if the dream is really the career, as opposed to the degree, and you agreed to spend an additional $80k, would the two years at NYU be the best way to spend it? I can't answer that question; but I bet it's a good one to ask, especially since you already know how talented your d. is. What are the alternative uses of $80k in pursuing an MT career?</p>
<p>Barrons,
To go into musical theater, one must very trained and talented in three areas....singing, acting, and dancing. One can obtain training outside of a college setting. But training is a must. It is a very difficult to field to make it in.</p>
<p>I do not view a college degree's worth by how much money one can earn due to getting the degree. The degree is not a ticket to a job. The degree is an EDUCATION. My D may never make it on stage (though I hope she will), but that doesn't matter. She will have a degree from NYU (that includes liberal arts....you can even minor or a few double major which is extemely difficult)...and she will be educated and able to do many different things other than performing if she doesn't make it on stage (though is going for it). She is a superb writer. She already writes shows, directs them, musical directs them, choregraphs, is an accompanist for pay, teaches, is a songwriter, can play in a piano bar, and more. I don't worry about her any more than I would a child with any college degree.</p>
<p>Nobody's college degree is a guarantee of a particular job. But it is an education. In terms of a BFA degree, there is the added intensive training in three skill areas that are necessary to be skilled at in order to stand a chancne in the HIGHLY competitive audition circuit in NYC. While a BFA is not the only path to a career in MT, it is considered a very good path. And it is also a college degree which is always a good thing to have in life, both for the education itself but also because in the general job market, a college degree helps. Someone can try to make it in theater with no college but if she doesn't make it on stage, she has no college degree with regard to other jobs. Someone with a BFA may make it on stage but if not, still has an education that will proove useful on a resume when looking for work overall. </p>
<p>Susan</p>
<p>Mini, one of the alternate ways if her D does not do a BFA is to just take classes/lessons and audition. But while that may get her work in the field, it also may not. Someone with a BFA also may not get work in shows either, but if not, still has a college degree which is beneficial in the work world. </p>
<p>In terms of how much the kid can make at her job when she graduates to pay back loans, SOME of us who took out loans to finance our kids' educations are planning to pay for their educations ourselves but simply do not have the money to pay for it outright. The loans will be ours to pay so her income potential is irrelevant in our decision. We wanted our child to get a college education and she wanted one too. There was never any question if she would ever go to college even if there are alternatives to college. We value the education and so does she. Her income has no bearing on the paying back of loans in our case. Not everyone on financial aid is planning on the child paying it back.</p>
<p>If I valued how much income potential vis a vis the tuition, I'd have to look inward. I went to Tufts for undergrad and Harvard for grad school and my field is VERY low pay....education, including having been a teacher. My education was worth it. My parents valued it and I was fortunate of this opportunity and thus have passed it on to my children, even though it is a hardship. We never discussed the worth of it vis a vis her income potential as a musical theater actress. </p>
<p>So far, after one year at Tisch/CAP21, and she is heading home tomorrow, my D has learned SO much and grown so much and has had wonderful training and opportunities. It has been priceless.'</p>
<p>PS...Tisch is a fine program and well regarded in the field, Mini, but I cannot claim it is the best. It is one of many very good programs.</p>
<p>Susan - tried to PM you ('nother topic) but your box is full.</p>
<p>I don't disagree with ANYTHING you wrote. (Actually, I agree with all of it.) But the college degree can be had much more cheaply, even in New York. Go to New York, get residency, finish at City College, and have $70k left over. Or any number of other options (Empire State; New School, etc.) I would definitely want my kid to have a degree. I would also want her to have the chance to follow her MT dream. And I think Tisch would be a great option, a WONDERFUL option, if you could afford it. But there are other options, and with $80k backing you, probably some pretty wonderful ones as well.</p>
<p>Mini, you mentioned about my PM box being full the other day when I was out of town on another thread. Perhaps you did not see my reply there (was on the MT forum where you left me a message), but my PM box fills up daily. I cannot keep up with it. I much prefer emails. Please feel free to email me and I will try to get back to you, though owe about 25 emails right now! :eek:</p>
<p>We turned down Tisch ($40K loans per year for 4 years) for a near-full ride at Vassar. Kid wanted Tisch, big time, but in his case the acceptance was to the dramatic writing program. He is not even sure he really wants to be a screenwriter --it is a lot of money to pay for someone still undecided and I think it is more appropriate for graduate school in his case. In fact I thought the program gave him little space to change his mind --it was very scripted for all four years in every sense. Is Tisch more prestigious than Vassar? Who knows --it is a level of debt i could not justify when he could go to Vassar for $10K a year. </p>
<p>But if he still feels he wants Tisch four years later, for grad school, i would try to help him. When he is 22, i will have better confidence I am paying for professional training he really plans to use. For my kid it felt like a whim --not a true commitment to a future he was absolutely sure of-- and as I said, not just expensive but restrictive. (Last descriptor is mine not his.) It's a big price just to 'explore' when you have other, excellent and far less-costly options.</p>
<p>I agree two years is less than four years --but $80K of debt for undergrad is pushing it. If it were my kid, I might agree if she assumed half the value of the plus loan herself. I would take $40 and let her take $40 --I would not take it all myself.</p>
<p>If she wants this I think some of the financial burden should go to her --especially in your situation with all those other kids.</p>
<p>What an incredibly thought vast array of advice! Your comments are very insightful and much appreciated; there's lots for us to think about. Daughter has just arrived home today for the summer, we have 2 weeks to get back to NYU with the SIR. Since this is breaking news, nobody at her current college knows about her possible defection so she hasn't burned any bridges there yet. She has a summer job (25-30 hours/week) and will take 2 gen ed classes at the local JC summer session which will fulfull requirements at NYU as well as her current college.</p>
<p>So NYU IS notoriously stingy with aid?!?! I know my daughter didn't think she would get in and if she did, she expected a much more generous package. When we crunch the numbers she may be sobered by reality payback time will bring. This year's FAFSA does not reflect my impending divorce; ASAP I will have daughter appeal the financial aid package at NYU with those details.</p>
<p>Yes, she went to NYC on the train for an audition, in mid-March. I knew she was going to NY for spring break, she left out the detail of the audition! She said she was extremely disappointed with her performance, felt under-prepared, and was sure she had bombed out!</p>
<p>I forgot to mention that she applied to NYU as a freshman and was rejected. (Our financial situation was not as precarious 2 years ago.)</p>
<p>I am not a pushover---I wouldn't have a problem saying NO WAY to exorbitant tuition for my other 3 kids (who aren't exceptionally talented or focused.) But this child is truly special...and I will deny I ever said that since her sibs would howl in protest!</p>
<p>Our options: She toughs it out on her free ride. She can do a paid-for study abroad and hopefully can graduate early in 3 more semesters which would cut down her time on campus. Then go to NY and seek her fortune. Maybe get a year-long deferral so she can work fulltime and save. Or after careful consideration and some kind of accountancy that guarantees my retirement is in peril, we bite the big debt bullet and send her to NYU in the fall.</p>
<p>Yes, I have read all the messages on the Tisch/NYU boards; I am beginning to comprehend how selective this program is, there may be no other equivalent. As I was walking past Caltech this eve I thought the same thing a poster stated: perhaps Tisch is to musical theather as Caltech is to physics.</p>
<p>My daughter would be furious if she knew I was asking for advice on a message board! So I shall try to memorize all your sage POVs when we further discuss this. </p>
<p>THANK YOU for taking the time to post such thoughtful answers. I will report back!</p>
<p>My D is going to Tisch in the fall for dance - just thought I'd throw this out- your D will make contacts through this program that would be very difficult to make in others besides Juilliard. Unless someone has a child in a BFA - it is very difficult for them to understand the difference and the very few options performing kids have. When my D looked into programs and options, she was given this advice from a working professional - do not go to college for a
BA - don't go to college at all unless it is a top conservatory program like Tisch or Juilliard - unless teaching is the goal. There are a few girls from this area who went to other NYC colleges for dance - they got BA's - they are dancing for companies BUT they do not get paid. My daughter-in-law has a BA in Theatre from a nice LAC - She admits that she does not have the training to pack up and move to NYC without paying tons of $$ for private classes. So...while you may be between a rock and a hard place - a performer has to have the training today - they are competing with others who have that training in at least one of the areas of MT - Secondly, as with any profession, it is often who you know rather than what you know - Finally - the arts and $$ can never be balanced - my husband and I will be paying a tremendous amount for our D's education and training - we probably will be paying for her passion the rest of our lives LOL - still the joy her art gives us and so many others cannot be measures in dollars (sounds like a Mastercard commercial) Does it makes sound financial sense - not at all - I can feel your anxiety and feel it myself in private moments - however I also feel so proud to know that my D will receive excellent training and an excellent education..I wish you the best - and congratulations to you and your daughter</p>
<p>Mini, the reason to go to Tisch is to get a BFA, not to "go to NYC." That can be had for way less. Saying she could go to City College, New College or Empire State reflects the point I was trying to make. It is not Tisch vs. City College. She has to decide if she wants a BA degree or a specialized BFA in Musical Theater. She cannot train in MT at the colleges you mentioned. They do not have a BFA in MT. IF she is going for a BFA degree, then weigh what Tisch costs (after the FA award) to what another BFA costs, say Emerson (oops, they do not allow transfers) or say OCU. That's apples to apples. But if she is just going to do a BA, she may as well stay where she is at. </p>
<p>Now, new information was shared. Eloise's D applied/auditioned for Tisch as a freshman and did not get in. It is obvious to me now that she has WANTED a BFA in MT all along. She now has been given a second chance. There are some parents/students on the MT Forum whose kids did not get in the first time but have subsequently gotten into top BFA programs on second tries. That is what this case is now. The decision for this girl is BFA or BA. IF she is set on a BFA for certain (this does not sound like a whim as it was a second try two years later), then her opportunity awaits. If she is content with a BA path, then figure out if she will stay where she is at or transfer elsewhere (though it does not sound like she put in for a transfer to any other BA schools). </p>
<p>Eloise, I can't answer about the FA package your D got. If her financial circumstances are going to change, document that and appeal with new information. However, her father's income may still be considered. You'll have to see but it can't hurt to try. I don't know if the odds with FA differ for transfers or not. My D got a Trustee scholarship (not counting the loan package) of $20,000/year but I don't think transfers are elgible for it. Still, YOUR D's BFA degree is going to cost way less than a kid who goes four years to Tisch. </p>
<p>Clover....you and I have talked of course. It is different for dramatic writing because one can go into that from a liberal arts background as well as can go to grad school (such as Tisch) for it later on. For MT, there are not majors in it per se in a liberal arts BA degree though some study straight theater. As well, you make a very good point why a BA made sense for your son (besides the cost differential) because he was not 100% certain of this major and also wanted breadth/options. A BFA is not for everyone. A BFA is a commitment before entering. A BFA program in MT is very intensive and a lot of the coursework is set for you, and then at NYU, there are also liberal arts requirements (not all BFA programs have those but my D was attracted to NYU because it included liberal arts as well as professional training in her field.) The hours are very long. One should only enter into such a program if 100% sure this is the only thing they can see themselves doing and can't imagine NOT doing it. It is not for all people. </p>
<p>I can tell you that whether one goes to a BFA program or not, one needs training to make it on the audition circuit at the highest levels. My D has been to many of these auditions. Training can be gotten many ways but one great way is in a BFA program. As well, many BFA programs end with Senior Showcases before top agents and casting directors, sometimes launching some seniors into opportunities. </p>
<p>I am not prepared to give details at the moment, but in a couple of cases of casting jobs my D has either been offered or considered for, including one with a Tony winning Broadway director who has met with her several times, did not originally stem from her being at Tisch, but have had a connection to her at Tisch at some point in the process. Her being at Tisch/CAP21 had SOMETHING to do with the opportunities she was given to audition and be cast in both situations. Sorry to not be more forthcoming, but until everything is all signed, sealed and delivered, that's all I will say. My point is that she has met with many in her field by virtue of being at Tisch.</p>
<p>First of all, a note on financial aid: NYU does NOT promise to meet full need; it does NOT consider the father's income - - it looks only at the FAFSA; and an appeal will result in at most an additional $2000 in grant money. Cloverdale can confirm this -- this is simply the way NYU works. We and many others have gone through the NYU financial aid appeals process, getting the same results, and have moved on. </p>
<p>Secondly -- while I respect and understand what you are saying Soozievt -- not all parents have the financial ability to underwrite their child's pursuit of their dreams. I <em>get</em> the performing arts thing -- my daughter is a dancer. It is wonderful to watch one's child perform on stage and certainly gives parents much joy. If money is not a problem, it certainly makes sense to spend it on the child's training. </p>
<p>But I'm a single parent with limited resources and I don't want to be a burden to my kids in my old age. Eloise is a soon-to-be single parent with 4 kids, 3 of whom are in college. She has come here asking for help. I appreciate the value of support and encouragement -- but I don't think it will help to inadvertantly lay a guilt trip on her if the answer must be no. No matter how wonderful Tisch is, it is not worth her sacrificing her own financial security. </p>
<p>We can all rationalize why a particular program is best for our kid's career aspirations. But not all young adults have the luxury of following their heart's desire. I happen to feel better having set limits and parenting independent and self-sufficient kids. Life doesn't always go the way we plan.</p>
<p>I have a feeling that Eloise's d. is willing to take more responsibility for this issue than the thread suggests -- so perhaps the best solution is for Eloise to hold back and give her daugher a chance to come up with a proposed plan for financing. Or ... as hard as it may seem ... allow her daughter to decide to turn down the Tisch offer without parental pressure one way or another -- not all young adults are comfortable with the idea of having their parents pay more than they can afford for their educations.</p>
<p>Excellent, down to earth advice from Calmom.</p>
<p>Calmom, I fully undersstand what you are saying. I had suggested that if this is financially not feasible for the mom to fund with loans, that she have a heart to heart with her D and see what, if anything, her D was willing to sacrifice if she wanted this, such as financing a large part herself, plus summer jobs, etc. At one time, the family had considered NYU. Also, the financial circumstances are changing with divorce and sometimes when there is a change, FA is adjusted. </p>
<p>I certainly didn't mean for a guilt trip. I was responding to various points that other posters brought up. I also shared my personal story but surely don't mean that others should have similar views or make similar choices. I am fully aware that some parents have their students pay for their own education, etc. My D's best friend at home....her parents said they'd pay NOTHING. Actually, the D is not even going to college. She was going to and had gotten in, however. Each family must make decisions that work for them. I surely pass no judgement on what others decide. </p>
<p>My other D's very close friend got into NYU/Stern as a Stern Scholar. Cost too much after the FA, so he is heading to Georgetown. Many families would not make the choices we have, in similar financial situations to us (can't afford college). We have taken on years of paying it back but it was a choice we were willing to make but did not have to make and our children would have been OK! </p>
<p>I also was explaining that musical theater is a different kind of major than other majors, even dance. One can major in dance at many colleges, not so with musical theater. Most parents on this thread do not have a child in this field which is why I suggested taking the question to the MT thread where many there have had to deal with this situation. </p>
<p>Eloise's D surely could continue at the BA school she is at and still puruse her dream of MT. If she doesn't go to CAP, her dreams are NOT thwarted. She'll reach her goals another way. She also can stop college and train, though that is not free like her current college is but it is not as much as college tuition. Another thought that even Eloise had was that her D has had two years for free and so the cost of NYU for two years after the grant, is way cheaper for a BFA than it normally would cost. I am not sure what they were prepared to spend two years ago when she applied to attend NYU/Tisch for four years and what their situtation is now. It may be that this is NOT an option at all now. It may be that she can pay some and D will have to pay some if she wants it so badly. Only they can decide. </p>
<p>Susan</p>
<p>Slightly off topic, but we also know a student who is being asked to fund 4 years of college herself. Her parents took out parent loans for year one, but they expect their D to pay back every dime. This is not for Tisch, but for Podunk U. In the end, she will be asked to pay over 90,000 back to her parents (if she makes it out in 4 years).</p>
<p>This is the part of the OP's thread start that called to me:
[quote]
I am 90% sure we are going to plunge ahead and do it. I guess I am looking for some encourgagement as I am feeling a lot of anxiety!
[/quote]
I am sure the OP is interested in all thoughtful feedback but is particularly appreciative of any support for what is a somewhat unconventional choice.</p>
<p>In the spirit of Jem's post, I will add my two cents:</p>
<p>Many years ago, I was attending an LAC I was not happy at, feeling that the creative writing program offered was not at all as good as described, and that the students there were on the whole very lackluster about academics and ideas in general--I didn't fit in at all, but they offered me a lot of merit money, so I went there. My mom was a widow, and things were tight.</p>
<p>Eventually, I decided, partly for personal reasons, and partly for academics, that I'd like to transfer to UMichigan. My Mom at first was skeptical; she thought of it as just another cow college in the midwest. Then she saw some kind of ranking which placed its English department in the top five, and began to realize how good a school it was. So, she let me go. Then we got the financial aid award--no money at all. I think it was because I received Social SEcurity, which the school assumed would go to tuition, when actually it was covering the mortgage at home. Also, I was a transfer, and low on the totem pole--they didn't promise full need. I took out the max loan (2500 was a lot at that time!) and she took out a PLUS loan. I lived in the coop dorm where we did all the cooking and cleaning for reduced fees; I also worked any other odd jobs I could get, during the year, and of course full time in the summers. I did so well the first year that I was given an academic scholarship the second year and another for a summer program I wanted to do. I still took out the max loan the second year, but mom didn't have to take out as much. </p>
<p>I was admitted directly into the Honors English program, which was an intense, incredible academic experience which challenged me every day. I took writing classes with major, world-class poets. I was fortunate to win a couple Hopwood Awards. A year after I graduated, I entered Michigan's PHd program. None of this would have happened if I'd stayed at the first school--I just didn't get what was possible for me.</p>
<p>Every day, I appreciate what my Mom did for me, and I've tried to do the best for my kids.</p>
<p>I hope all works out great for you and your daughter, Eloise.</p>
<p>I find it amazing that your daughter plunged ahead with a transfer application without telling you. She should have had the courtesy to do that given the possible financial consequences to her, you and the rest of the family.</p>
<p>Another thing that should be looked into is how many of her credits will transfer to NYU. A friend's son transfered from Syracuse to Tisch in their film or photography program and about half of his credits did not transfer. If the same hold true for your daughter she stands to loose a year of credits which is a big financial blow.</p>
<p>Another fact of life in the performing arts is that there is a horrible glut of wonderful performers out there. I would guess that there might be a 25% chance that your daughter will be able to support herself through performing. And because beginning performers go to many auditions it is not possible to hold a 9-5 job. Who is going to pay off loans exceeding $80,000.</p>
<p>If she really wants to be a performer perhaps an alternative route is best. Place college on the back burner for a few years, move to NYC and see what happens. There she can hire some private coaches who have connections in the local theater scene, live more cheaply than she could as an NYU student and devote 24/7 to audition after audition. BTW, many of the Tisch profs also have many connections in the local arts scene too. After about 18 months she will have a lot of first hand experience in the theatre and know if she has what it takes to succeed. And even if she does it needs to be coupled with a hefty amout of luck.</p>
<p>And realize one other thing about the theatre. A very high percentage of performance gigs pay nothing, nada. I have a friend whose 3 daughters are performers and though they have been on stage a number of times, most have paid nothing. The productions they performed in with the theatre company below were nonpaying and this is(was?) a relatively important avant garde company in the NYC theatre. And yes one of the daughters is a Tisch alum, having transfered from a small lac in the south. I am not sure how many of her credits transfered though.
<a href="http://home.earthlink.net/%7Ealannamedlock/wow/whatwedid.html%5B/url%5D">http://home.earthlink.net/~alannamedlock/wow/whatwedid.html</a></p>
<p>Eloise, I sympathize. Nobody wants to crush their kids dreams.</p>
<p>I have no advice for you, but I would like to encourage you to view this situation from the perspective of your other kids. I have first cousins with a dynamic similar to yours.... a talented artist-child, surrounded by less talented siblings. Parents of modest means broke the bank for the talented one.... the others more or less made it on their own.</p>
<p>Fast forward.... the sibs are all middle-aged; parents are elderly and in poor health. You'd be surprised how many expenses crop up that are not covered by medicare/medicaid. Talented artist has achieved some measure of glory in chosen field, but income is erratic (and that's in a good year) with no job security and does not contribute to parental upkeep. Not-so-special kids share the burden of mom and dad from their very ordinary jobs in insurance, teaching, industrial components, etc. Not too glamorous, but they've got 401K's and health insurance unlike successful, talented sib so they pick up the tab.</p>
<p>Bottom line-- much resentment all around. I do not predict that the sibling relationship will last past mom and dad. Too many old axes to grind; too much financial sacrifice for one kid at the expense of the others; too many burdens being felt disproportionately. These are nice people (sounds like yours are too) who are doing the right thing for parents who didn't plan well for their own retirement, but who seethe inside.</p>
<p>Just make sure your other kids needs are attended to, even if their talents aren't as obvious as the performers. What if one of them decides to go to medical school and wants a career in public health-- does the family throw their support behind that decision as well? What if one decides to become an aid-worker or missionary....you get my drift.</p>
<p>I know you'll make a good decision here, but just consider that to the siblings their own hopes and dreams matter to them as much as your daughters dreams of making it big on broadway. If they all decide to become Investment Bankers so they can pay back their own loans, you're in good shape. On the off-chance that one of them picks another path..... just make sure you've built that into your planning.</p>
<p>And a sidebar-- is your daugher's relationship with her dad as fractured as yours is? Sometimes a divorcing parent is quick to lump the kids in with the spouse.... but if she's had a good relationship with him up until now, he may reconsider paying her tuition.... or at least assuming some of her loans for the first few years while she establishes herself professionally.</p>
<p>Eloise, I know very little about Tisch in particular, but I can tell you that one of my S's HS classmates is now starring on Broadway in a major musical. She attended a state college's music conservatory. If your D is miserable where she is now, is it too late for her to consider that route?</p>