<p>Let's mention the rise in applications. I view that as a recruiting tool. The perception is the more aps. the more people who would like to attend. Maybe... but, at $50-$80 a throw some folks are not going to apply to two dozen schiools. However, if the application is "free" as some top notch schools offer ie., Mount Holyoke, Colby, well than why not toss one in. Now, next year those schools who offer certain "no fee" applications will claim applications are up again, without mentioning how many thousands of kids were enticed by the no-fee policy Also in the perverbial search for merit aid which is tied to the incredible rising cost of college, many people are fishing for merit and that means more aps also. Today there is a bumper crop of applicants due the boomer's kids. Once that crop thins out in the next four or five years you may see colleges who survived by tossing merit aid and meeting finaid at high rates start to go under. The Ivies will not because they've got billions, many more have hundreds of millions, but for those smaller colleges who lured people with generous offers to climb the USNWR ladder the bill will come due, and if the applicants are not there and the money has dried up, it may be tough to survive, never mind stay competitive. Also, someone mentioned an entire class of people for whom an Ivy League education is out of reach. I'm thinking those folks are upper middle class (120-200k) a year and can't get enough finaid, but also can't afford 50K a year either. Unfortunately these folks can be excluded because nobody is shedding many tears for folks making that kind of money, but on the other hand, if the Ivies and other top 20 are filled will low income kids and the S and D's of milionaires, how is that a cross section of society which in theory adds to diversity?</p>
<p>The assumptions are incorrect. There are plenty of wealthy kids going to the Ivies and other very selective privates. There are also plenty in the middleclass and upper middle. There are plenty of families willing to sacrifice and borrow in order to send their kids to top colleges. For others the cost is not worth it or feasible. There is nothing new about that. In another few months, when the acceptances and financial offers start to come in, this forum will be full of threads focused on: Is is worth it? As always, that will be an individual decision. </p>
<p>I am always somewhat surprised about the success of the mid ranked privates. Many are very expensive and not very good, but they seem to find enough applicants who will pay. Some of these colleges may fall on real hard times in a few years if the number of applicants starts to drop. I am not convinced that will happen. There may be a smaller number of college aged kids, but a higher percentage are likely to go to college.</p>
<p>You have to wonder if the housing crunch will play into this. It is possible that more middle class parents will not be willing to borrow to send the kids to private schools as they watch their house value fall and the economy slow. I think the cheaper Publics and the Privates that offer significant aid will do well but the privates that don't meet need or offer substantial merit aid may very well see a significant decline.</p>
<p>Time will tell I guess.</p>
<p>I see more and more of my community college students heading off to privates and not SUNY's. NYU is the most popular, but one told me she was applying to Barnard as a transfer. I have sent kids to Wellesley, Amherst, heck we even sent one to Yale. Many want to transfer into Wharton; they are reactng just as their peers right out of high school. They used to go to either SUNY's or the not very good local privates. Now it's a whole new ball game. And with two years out of the way the price tag for two years, not four, looks a whole lot more manageable.</p>
<p>The only kids in my S's or D's group that went to SUNY's are the children of foreign born physicists at Brookhaven Labs. This kids go off to Stony Brook Honors College (free tuition) and continue research they were already doing in high school (it's four miles away from our high school.) They're probably laughing themselves sick at us stupid Americans.</p>
<p>In my area, there are plenty of families who can afford to pay "full freight" with some belt-tightening, but instead opt for bigger homes, a pool, expensive new cars, while bragging about how little they are paying for college by sending DS or DD to in-state second or third tier university (or to local community college).</p>
<p>This is an interesting thread as I know it's something my H, D, and I will have to mull over for the next 1.5 years and then again when S reaches this age. We chose to move to the hometown of our alma mater, IU, several years ago after living in a neighboring state for many years. (It's not our "hometown," but we love it here.) We would happily let D live on campus, etc. if she chooses to go to school here. We've already told her that we'll find it hard to pay for most OOS public schools, not necessarily financially but logically, as we know the programs offered at one of our state schools can generally meet whatever is offered elsewhere. We're fortunate to live in a state in which the 2 big schools have decent/great reputations in a variety of areas. I know there are others out there in the same situation. The difficult decison will be paying for a private school that may or may not have a better ranking. We're realistic enough to know that she'll probably not get into a top 10 university and are all fine with that. The hard decision will be if she was admitted to a top 25 or 30 school with great name recognition. Since we don't know what kind of merit aid she might receive we have to ask the extra $20-30,000 be worth the name? Would spending the extra $20,-30,000 make her experience better? Would she be better off in the long run going to state U for her undergrad degree so mom and dad can chip in for the grad degree? I don't know, but we've already thought of it quite a bit. I sure we'll continue to think about it until the day we send in the first tuition payment.</p>
<p>A note to dbwes- instate students pay a "fraction of the price" because their parents are paying the taxes to support the school. Remember, not all Big Ten schools are the same, for most it may not matter, but some want the different atmosphere or academics. IU parents, and others living in a college town, don't be surprised if your child wants to go anywhere but the local U, no matter how good/affordable... Very often grad students get money not available to undergrads.</p>
<p>Regarding private versus public- why pay more for a lesser school just because it's private? The best fit for a top student who doesn't get one of the limited spots at an elite school they like (if they won't apply to elite X the finances don't matter) is often a public flagship U.</p>
<p>And while some public universities may give bum deals to out-of-state students, others are lining up to attract them. I know several schools here in the southeast who are looking to raise the geographic diversity as well as the academic profile of their student body and are actively looking for talented OOS students. Thus even if the in-state public isn't the right fit, there are certainly other, perhaps "lesser ranked" public schools out there willing to take them. </p>
<p>The whole distinction between "public" and "private" is somewhat overrated; on average, most publics will be larger and on average most privates will be more expensive, but so much depends on the school itself. If cost is the primary concern, and with the rising tuition rates at many privates (and some publics) like one poster mentioned before, the "plus" of saving money at a public outweighs whatever minor negatives there may be. Too often the biggest negative for publics is a "perception" of inferiority, which I hope continues to decline in the future.</p>
<p>The choice is usually made even more difficult when State U. will give top students some major perks that they might not get as easily at top schools.</p>
<p>Not one of the top students at our high school has ended up at our state U, at least in the past few years since I have been paying attention. Not a one. Even the kids who end up in the honor's college there, are solid above average kids, but not the top students (and this is not a group of 1 or 2, but I am thinking of the top 20-30). </p>
<p>So this might be state dependent too.</p>
<p>wis75 -- I understand that completely and didn't mean to imply that there was anything unfair about in-state tuition. I thought I made it clear that, strictly in my own family's situation and given the reputation/value/programs at UIUC, I was finding it increasingly hard in my own mind to imagine paying OOS at other state schools. I never meant to imply that it was the wrong choice for everyone. And I am well aware there is a difference between state schools in the Big Ten. I just am not sure there is enough difference FOR ME, even between Illinois and Michigan, say, to justify Michigan's substantial OOS tuition. Michigan is as expensive as a private for OOS but doesn't give the kind of merit aid that privates might. Michigan doesn't need to "court" OOS students, either.</p>
<p>I do know kids who go to Truman State, University of Kansas, and other schools where OOS is actually less than in-state at UIUC, but again people could argue those are "lesser" schools.</p>
<p>And by the way, eadad, mythmom, and wis -- what criteria are you using when you call mid-ranked or local privates "not very good" or "lesser?" Median ACT scores? Rankings? Acceptance rates? Some sort of graduate outcome report? I'm not always comfortable when value judgments like that are thrown out and not explained. Many small private schools occupy an important niche in their communities and very ably serve their populations. They might offer services for LD. They might have a stellar program in one or two areas.</p>
<p>With some students, it's gotten to the point that the flagship is the "reach". Some of the private colleges in our region are far less selective than the flagship, and most/all are less selective than the flagship honors program.</p>
<p>Doubleplay, I think almost EVERY private in NJ (excluding Princeton) is far less selective than Rutgers. Even a state school like Ramapo is increasingly tougher to get into. Recently the 1600 val from our town h.s. went to Montclair State because, among other reasons, she went for free & was guaranteed admissions into the UMDNJ -- our state med school.</p>
<p>Years ago, lots of bright kids went to CCNY (now CUNY, part of SUNY) in New York City -many, many famous alums from forties, fifties, sixties! For barely any cost. Hopefully, New York is seeing a return to the days when intelligent students unable to afford private school can take advantage of the opportunities at home. Because so many upper middle class families I know are sending their kids to SUNY I don't have to feel guilty if my kid goes that route as well.</p>
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And while some public universities may give bum deals to out-of-state students, others are lining up to attract them. I know several schools here in the southeast who are looking to raise the geographic diversity as well as the academic profile
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<p>Vig, could you either list these schools here, or send a PM to me listing them? Thanks.</p>
<p>Muffy, that is how my mother got her college degree. It did not cost her or her parents a dime. She has always said that she got a wonderful education through CCNY.</p>
<p>dbwes: I am not talking about mid-ranked schools. I am talking about third and fourth tier schools that I have taught at and found less rigorous than the community college. There's no doubt that they serve local populations, but I have taught these kids in both settings, and they are capable of more. The schools I have in mind are beautiful campuses, but the academics are really weak. Don't want to use names and offend people who actually attend, have children attend etc. </p>
<p>This is not true of all schools in area; we do have small "niche" schools. One school I have in mind is a country club with wealthy students who are capable of so much more. I know this because I have taught there.</p>
<p>In the past, this is what the community college students aspired to when they left after two years; now they are setting their sights on strong acadeic programs.</p>
<p>
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I see more and more of my community college students heading off to privates and not SUNY's... ...to Barnard as a transfer. I have sent kids to Wellesley, Amherst, heck we even sent one to Yale. Many want to transfer into Wharton...
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<p>mythmom, do you know how these kids fare once they attend the strong schools? I ask because I'm trying to gauge the strength of CCs. I have a PhD friend who teaches at the local CC who is extremely unimpressed with the caliber of students there, and in some cases unimpressed with his peers. He, however, is very competent and I'd have no problem professors like him teaching my kid.</p>
<p>If not by student stats, then how do we ascertain the quality of instruction at these schools? I'd be very disappointed if my kid went to the country club you mention.</p>
<p>mythmom, Couldn't students find challenging courses at the 3rd and 4th tier schools if they wanted them?</p>
<p>I have also taught at both community college and a very low tier school, and found pretty unimpressive students in both. And to answer NEMom, I don't think there were any (that I knew of) challenging courses (and if there were, there were very few, if any, higher caliber students) in the private college at which I taught. The writing skills I witnessed were positively horrific, and I don't use that term in the slightest lightly.</p>
<p>At least at State U, one is sure to find both a range of courses, and a range of students.</p>
<p>I also worry about the ability to transfer into better schools from CC. I know a woman whose son was one of a grand total of nine kids accepted for transfer into computer science at UIUC. Nine. His situation was truly unique and he was, because of poor health, completely unable to begin his college work at an away school.</p>