<p>Of course Allmusic. Your are totally correct. I shouldn’t have been so flip about something so serious.</p>
<p>And those of us who do have health insurance from our jobs will probably soon be asked to pay for it.</p>
<p>Kids do not have to go to an Ivy to succeed in life. There are many colleges and universities out there that do a great job. You can look at the profile of students of each years incoming class, the job placement rate after graduation, the acceptance rate of graduates into medical, law or graduate schools. The honors program at many schools gives talented kids a challenge. Also, many of the schools have merit money available to good students. High Schoolers and parents really need to do some research into more college choices.</p>
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<p>It has not been affordable for the middle to lower middle class for a few years(esp. if there is more than one child to educate), IMO. It has still been managable if there is one child to get through 4 years, but for that lower middle class/middle class family with more than one child, I have seen a change. My son has a hs friend who graduated hs 2 years ago. He comes from a middle class family with 3 children. He has yet to start his college/vocational experience. His older sister went to a 40k+ private college. Loans were taken out. They received little financial aid. They have had to sell their house and move into a less expensive part of the state. They are still paying off educational debt. Their second child was encouraged to go into a vocational program by parents bc of money. He was an average hs student who is capable of going to a 4 year college. Money is lacking and the family clearly does not want to go into more debt. They clearly want this kid in and out of a program, and then in the workforce. What has held up the works is when the parents discovered that culinary schools in our area will cost the same as the private college for the year (around 40k). My son’s friend has been washing dishes in a family owned restaurant for 2 years, waiting to get “the go ahead” from mom and dad. Six months of kitchen experience is required for admission, but he has been in limbo for 2 years. He is very unhappy with his current situation. He is most unhappy with his social situation. </p>
<p>Also, I don’t find the state schools in our state to be very affodable. Sure, one could begin at cc. I know a student who did just that. Her father lost his job in the spring before she was to begin at a private 4 year college. Her sister was in college at the time. Her father asked her to go to a cc for one year, until he was back on his feet. She commuted to cc, which required a car to get there, btw. At the end of one year of cc as a full time student, only one cc course transferred! I had read that regulations are now in place so that credits must be accepted by our state schools (which is where she ended up going) from our CCs, but they don’t need to accept classes taken at the CC towards a major.</p>
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This will be a MAJOR problem for anyone hoping to save $$ by earning a CC associates degree first followed by a transfer. I have several friends from h.s who went this route. They transfered into Rutgers and have all gone on to earn graduate degrees & are wildly successful. If that option is taken away, and CCs are only seen as places to earn terminal degrees in vocational type careers, there will be even more pressure to offer aid at four year schools.</p>
<p>SS, I agree. I read some article about NJ state schools needing to accept those CC credits, but not toward a major. I don’t recall where I read this. I have a BIL who attended a SUNY CC and every class transferred because he continued on at a 4 year SUNY school. He will suggest this route to NY state students. It was the least expensive way for him to get his 4 year degree.</p>
<p>With a few exceptions, the vast majority of the top students from our high school attend one of our state u’s. Those who don’t are usually ones whose families are not native to our state but transferred here from other parts of the country. Nobody in our town would think the class Val. was crazy to go to one of our big state u’s. </p>
<p>The kids who go private end up at small privates here in our state that would never be thought of as elite. The ones I know are there either because they wanted a much smaller environment than state u’s. or because they didn’t get into the big state u. they hoped to go to.</p>
<p>We are lucky to have a good CC system. Lots of kids choose the CC (even those who got accepted to 4 yr. colleges) to start off and then transfer.<br>
Our CC’s have specifc curricula for students planning to transfer. All the courses taken in the CC program are guaranteed to transfer to our state u’s.<br>
It is a great option for saving money or for those who don’t really know which direction they want to go in just yet.</p>
<p>Packmom, Your state is exceptionally wonderful. If we lived in NC, I would let my kiddo know that I expect him to attend a public in NC, unless a private college would match the COA. People in our area would give anything to attend UNC-Chapel Hill! Total cost for instate at Chapel Hill is under 16k and that includes travel, books, and personal expenses, so the complete COA. What a great deal!</p>
<p>We live in Florida, and my kids have gone to public high schools. Because of a zoning change, each has been in a different high school. And the thing that I’ve noticed, especially relating to my D who has a 4.0 u.w. GPA, (who’ll probably graduate with 10 AP’s (all 5’s, thus far), and excellent standardized test scores is that no one at school has pulled her aside to discuss any option other than the state schools. We’ve talked to her about options, as we’ve said with your stellar stats you have a “chance” at so many schools … but she hasn’t even considered them. I think that would be different if her friends were talking about options outside the state. For her, she’s looking at UF as her reach school. We’re taking her to UNC-Chapel HIll this summer because it’s the only OSS school that she’s really expressed any interest in, but even then … I have to admit, unless she could get in with exceptional merit aid, it would be difficult for us to justify (for our family) the added expense, knowing both our kids are going for post-graduate degrees, which we could help pay for if they keep the undergrad expenses down. My S, who’s a freshman in one of our huge state universities, is loving their honors program and the “perks” he gets with it, as well as the small LAC feel for his classes. The fit has been perfect for him and the cost has been perfect for us. I’d be very suprised if the majority of the top 10 in her graduating class go anywhere besides a state school.</p>
<p>zebes</p>
<p>Northeast, the crazy part about comparing those “olden” days is the out-of-control rise in college costs. I graduated from h.s. in 1976 & paid more for a Catholic h.s. tuition than the cost of state college. I received the NJ State Scholarship, which was up to $1,000 per year, and it covered my entire tuition at NJIT and Rutgers – about $600 per year! Today that tuition is about $10,600. Yet the state scholarship, now called the Bloustein, is still $1,000.</p>
<p>Friends who went to the community colleges paid about $300 per year. In large, Catholic families, that $300 cost savings was significant. No r&b costs, either. My friends went in knowing every credit would be accepted by the state universities, even those needed for the major. What a shame it will be if this low cost alternative for middle class families is lost.</p>
<p>SS, I agree with you. NJ currently has the Star Program, but I am not aware of one person in our hs who used it. I know one student is at a lower economic and inferior public HS who was able to make great use of it. It is a shame that not everyone who needs this program can get it. I wish it were open to any B student from any public hs, not just the top % of students. In our HS the top % go to Ivies, and schools like Johns Hopkins, NYU, etc. They are not taking advantage of this program anyway. In the meantime middle class B kids are struggling to figure out how to pay for Rutgers, Montclair, Ramapo, and the others. It is a shame. If they could only use that STAR program they would have an easier time going to CC (they need a car and auto insurance to make it happen in our area- a male NJ driver has a hefty insurance bill). My mother went to CUNY for free and did not need a car to get there. Her parents were immigrants who did not speak English, and worked minimum waged jobs. My mother ended up with a postgraduate degree. I have a friend who is a middle class parent of a 10th grader. He told me that he will pay for instate tuition. He is in a place of employment where one perk is that tuition is in PRE-tax dollars! He will not pay the room and board. I am watching to see how this plays out. The son can’t get a loan for room and board unless papa cosigns. I doubt that will happen. He will not have a car, and he lives too far from Rutgers to commute anyway.</p>
<p>Yes, the car can sure be an issue in NJ with the outrageous insurance rates. I took the bus, or walked, but NJ public transportation isn’t great.</p>
<p>I just checked on the STAR program. Am I correct in assuming every kid in the top 20% of his class will get free tuition at a community college, regardless of income? That sounds great for middle class kids, but almost too good to be true. Am I misunderstanding something? Of course, if the state universities then refuse to accept the credits, it’s not such a great deal…</p>
<p>SS, I think that is the deal. I did not remember if it was top 20% or 15%, but I assume you read correctly. Still, kids in top 20% of our hs do not take advantage of it. I wish the real average kid in our district could take advantage of the program. It would be a big help to middle class NJ families.</p>
<p>Editing this to add, just like you did not much about it, I never heard of it before I found out about it through the young lady who took advantage of it. I have never heard about this program in our hs. CC would not be encouraged for the top 20% of our hs graduates. In fact, I don’t find it encouraged for most of our hs graduates. Only a couple of students go onto a CC from our hs each year (at the most).</p>
<p>Any student in Missouri who stays out of disciplinary trouble, gets a 2.5 and does 50 hours of tutoring (broadly defined) during 4 years of high school can go to any cc free of charge. Also, participation in this program (called the A+ program) now will gain students fee waivers of a thousand or two per year to a variety of other state colleges for freshman and sophomore years.</p>
<p>The drawback: many of our cc, particularly in the less populated parts of the state, are not really on a par with the other public colleges. As a result, some of the colleges and universities do not accept certain courses that are essential for certain majors. In general, though, courses transfer.</p>
<p>My 10th grade daughter is considering signing up for the tutoring part of the program. She has no interest in cc, but is considering a “public LAC” that offers a program of interest to her, and which recently announced it will recognize the program with a small tuition waiver.</p>
<p>StickerShock, the program in Missouri requires that the high school sign up to be part of the program, so many students in privates (and even in some low-income publics!) do not qualify for this deal. Hard to believe that some publics are so bad they can’t be bothered to administer a program that would allow many of their low-income students to attend cc for free.</p>
<p>BTW: car insurance is relatively inexpensive in MO, even for young males.</p>
<p>Midmo, the fact that some publics are so clueless is really tragic. CCs offer some wonderful vocational programs, like dental hygiene, medical office assistant, or medical billing. Some of the Associate degrees can lead to very solid jobs. These are great programs for a big slice of the population. Imagine how getting a foot in the door of a real career can turn around the family circumstances of kids in tough circumstances.</p>
<p>D’s h.s sends 100% of the girls to four year colleges, so STAR was never mentioned in any college counseling presentations.</p>
<p>Sticker, I think it should be mentioned in all NJ public HSs. The high schools should also highlight some strengths about the local CCs. In our hs a student would be “ashamed” to say that they are attending a CC. That should not be the case. Not everyone can afford our instate public Us for 4 years. I think that all high school students should be shown an alternative. The rest should be a family decision.</p>
<p>Midmo, I wonder what the point is to have classes running that cannot be used toward a 4 year degree (unless it is a certificate type of program like a vocational program that leads to job placement).</p>
<p>^^^It isn’t the case that classes cannot be transferred at all. For example, an economics class might be used to satisfy a general social science requirement for many majors, but might not be accepted as a required course for an economics major at some of the larger universities.</p>
<p>I have a relative who flunked intro. economics, a required course for her major, which was unrelated to economics, at the public flagship. Over the summer she took intro econ at a cc and got an A. It transferred for her major, but would not have been accepted as a required class for an economics major.</p>
<p>Midmo thanks, I understand now.</p>
<p>On the websites for our CC’s and our state u’s, you can easily find the transfer equivalancies. While the CC’s offer a variety of Eng. classes, the student can easily look up the equivalant class that transfers to the state u. as Eng.101. </p>
<p>That’s so sad to hear that students would be ashamed to say they are attending a CC. Lots of kids here do it (and we live in an upper middle class suburb). Some transfer to a 4yr. school and some get an associates degree in a vocation they can easily find jobs in making good salaries. No stigma attached here. S’s friend did the automotive program. He’s starting out at our local GM dealership making $30 an hour.</p>
<p>packmom- the NC system is the best I found at providing information- they do not seem to hide much. In NJ some schools require a password to look at the data.The instate cost in NJ is very similar to the oos cost to the NC schools- I mean coa. If you are willing to go to the midwest/west/south NJ instate compares to the oos coa. (Montana and Kansas are 2 my D looked at.) I believe she would have liked both but she decided not to apply.</p>
<p>tom, I agree that some OOS publics are not much more than instate. That spread between instate and OOS can change every year. Has your D decided to apply to a few NC schools? As you may remember, we really liked NC-W. My son is a couple of years away yet, so it might really not make financial sense for him to apply there. We’ll have to wait and see. I have been following your posts. Good luck to your D.</p>