<p>Good job Bern700... you are really proving Wharton to be God's gift to banking... what else is it God's gift for? Can you train your **** not to stink with a degree from Wharton?</p>
<p>No, you'd have to go to Harvard to learn how to do that.</p>
<p>I've never implied that wharton is gods gift to banking...just the nature of the people that go to wharton (greedy,competitive,etc.) leads a good majority of each class to go into banking...most of these kids have been into banking since h.s. without really knowing what it is (like many here on CC)...the OP wanted to know what kind of job you could have 5-10 yrs down the line with just a BA/BS and I was merely informing him that at my school very few end up doing an MBA and still end up being successful because they are well prepared and don't have to take time out of their career to go and get an advanced degree...which sadly most UG business programs don't provide the kinds of opportunities that wharton does especially the banking & consulting opportunities. If a person does want to go into one of these fields he or she has a greater opportunity to a job going to wharton just because banks/consulting firms recruit more students from wharton than from any other school...pretty much every banking or consulting presentation/interview/etc i've gone to tell me that the school the hire the largest # of people from is wharton.</p>
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If a person does want to go into one of these fields he or she has a greater opportunity to a job going to wharton just because banks/consulting firms recruit more students from wharton than from any other school
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<p>What about this from Bain.com:</p>
<p>"In fact we hire more Associate Consultants from Harvard each year than from any other school."</p>
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just because banks/consulting firms recruit more students from wharton than from any other school...pretty much every banking or consulting presentation/interview/etc i've gone to tell me that the school the hire the largest # of people from is wharton.
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<p>I also believe McKinsey has stated that they hire more undergrads out of Harvard than from any other school, including Penn/Wharton.</p>
<p>obviously not every company out there is going to have more wharton students than any other...but many do, especially in banking (consulting, to some extent, although the interest for this field is much much smaller at penn). sakky from the mckinsey presentation i went to they said that so i just took it to be true...i guess the guy doesnt know that much about his firm. :)</p>
<p>Well, let me put it to you this way. According to the Wharton career data, about 5-7 Wharton BS undergrads are reported to join McKinsey every year. Now, I am going to make the * highly biased * assumption that the same rate of "Mckinsey-joinage" is true throughout all of the rest of both the Wharton grads who chose not to report where they went, and, more importantly, is also true throughout the rest of the UPenn undergrad programs. Obviously this is an extremely biased assumption because I doubt that the rate of Mckinsey hiring is not going to be the same through the rest of Penn as it is through just Wharton (for example, I would surmise that very few of Penn's graduates of the School of Nursing are going to McKinsey). That means that using this highly biased assumption, about 50-70 Penn undergrads will go to McKinsey. I strongly suspect that more than 50-70 Harvard undergrads go to McKinsey.</p>
<p>probably a good assumption...I agree! One of the guys that came to speak for them (a yale grad i think) stated that wharton/penn was largest which surprised me...although now that I think about it I don't really remember if he said they gave the largest number of offers or the most hires...I might believe the offers part as I constantly hear of lots of people turning down major consulting firms, like mckinsey, for banking offers. oh well whatever the guy meant doesn't really matter he could have just lied to give people more confidence...i dont know :)</p>
<p>sakky, I think you might be a little optimistic of those numbers. I doubt Mckinsey hires 1.6%-2.3% of their total workforce from <em>two</em> schools each year. If McKinsey had a 10% churn rate then we are talking about Penn & Harvard supplying up to 25% of their new hires each year. And even then, new hires with virtually no experience? That is a <em>huge</em> risk for Kinsey.</p>
<p>Well, to those who know, or think they might have a hunch:</p>
<p>I'd be interested to know approximately what number of students McKinsey hires from HYPSM. I doubt anybody here would know definite numbers, but estimates might be interesting.</p>
<p>you could work for the government as many positions dont even rquire a degree, though it could help if you had one an dyou'd likely start off at a higher pay grade.</p>
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sakky, I think you might be a little optimistic of those numbers. I doubt Mckinsey hires 1.6%-2.3% of their total workforce from <em>two</em> schools each year.
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<p>I agree that my numbers are highly optimistic. In fact, that's the whole point. I highly doubt that there are really 50-70 Penn grads going to McKinsey (simply because some of the undergrad schools at Penn, like the Nursing School, probably don't produce any McKinsey employees). </p>
<p>My point is that I find it hard to believe that Penn produces more McKinsey analysts than does Harvard. Whatever the actual numbers happen to be is simply tangential to my point. </p>
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If McKinsey had a 10% churn rate then we are talking about Penn & Harvard supplying up to 25% of their new hires each year. And even then, new hires with virtually no experience? That is a <em>huge</em> risk for Kinsey.
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<p>But here I would have to disagree with you. First off, the McKinsey churn rate is FAR FAR more than 10% a year. Consulting is infamous for extremely high churn rates. That's because most people rightly don't see consulting as a long-term career. Instead, they are simply using consulting as a means to obtain exposure to lots of different industries so that they can jump to the job they really want. It is widely understood that this is what most people who join consulting firms are really doing. In fact, this is why the big consulting firms actually have "alumni" groups that are actually supported by the company - basically, a way for former employees at the consultancy to keep in touch with each other and with current employees at the consultancy.</p>
<p>How many other companies out there actually devote a part of their website to former employees? Let's face it. Most companies don't even want to acknowledge the existence of former employees. However, McKinsey (like other consulting companies) actually encourages former employees to maintain contact with them. </p>
<p>I also have to disagree that hiring people with no experience is a huge risk for McKinsey. The major consulting firms hire LOTS of people right out of undergrad with no work experience. In fact, they have an entire employment category devoted to that. It's the "business analyst" track, in which almost everybody who is hired is a recent college grad with minimal (usually zero) experience.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.mckinsey.com/aboutus/careers/undergraduates/index.asp%5B/url%5D">http://www.mckinsey.com/aboutus/careers/undergraduates/index.asp</a>
<a href="http://www.mckinsey.com/aboutus/careers/profdevelopment/developmentpath/index.asp%5B/url%5D">http://www.mckinsey.com/aboutus/careers/profdevelopment/developmentpath/index.asp</a></p>
<p>Whether you think it is a huge risk for these consulting firms or not, I suppose, is a matter of opinion. I would argue that it is not, otherwise, they wouldn't keep doing it. From what I have seen from many people I know who are former McKinsey analysts, I think it is a highly risk-free way for McKinsey to hire people. As an analyst, your job will basically be to support the "real" lead consultants, basically by doing a lot of their grunt work while developing experience in working on various business problems. It is that lead consultant that is going to be the point of contact between the client and McKinsey and he is going to be in charge of running the project. Your job as an analyst is to support him/her. Presuming that the lead consultant is competent (and I think all of them at McKinsey are highly competent), I don't see much risk for McKinsey in hiring all these new college grads to be analysts. It seems like an excellent deal for everybody. The analyst gets top-flight experience, a golden name for the resume, and good pay. The firm gets access to highly talented and hard working individuals. Hence, I think the risk is highly manageable for McKinsey and all of the other major consulting firms. </p>
<p>Like I said, if it really was so risky to hire new undergrads, then I doubt that these consulting firms would create and maintain an entire career category just for these new undergrads.</p>
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One of the guys that came to speak for them (a yale grad i think) stated that wharton/penn was largest which surprised me...although now that I think about it I don't really remember if he said they gave the largest number of offers or the most hires...I might believe the offers part as I constantly hear of lots of people turning down major consulting firms, like mckinsey, for banking offers. oh well whatever the guy meant doesn't really matter he could have just lied to give people more confidence...i dont know
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<p>I can believe that McKinsey hires more BS Wharton grads than undergrads out of any other undergrad business school. This is VERY believeable, and in fact, I would be surprised if it wasn't true. After all, not only is Wharton obviously top-notch, but it is also one of the most populous undergrad business schools in the country. </p>
<p>But when it gets down to most offers, it's hard for me to believe that Harvard loses on this respect, considering the huge slew of Harvard grads who head off to McKinsey.</p>
<p>Sakky - Thank you for your post. Cleared up a few things.</p>
<p>How would one go about becoming a teach (in business) after he goes to a university, graduates, then becomes an ibanker, etc.?</p>
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But when it gets down to most offers, it's hard for me to believe that Harvard loses on this respect, considering the huge slew of Harvard grads who head off to McKinsey.
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<p>I can vouch for the truthfulness of Sakkys post. I know of two recent Harvard Grads who got recruited by I-bankers; one guy now in Goldman Sachs (BA degree in history), the other in McKinsey (Math). The McKinsey guy got double degree (BA/MA Combined in Four Years), so he must be brilliant :p Bottom Line - If you have a deg. from Harvard with high GPAs and whatnots, I-banker will come and snatch you!!!</p>
<p>question, other than the big mc firms, are there any legitimate boutique consulting firms? is there a stigma to staying with a consulting firm all the way and not just leaving in 2-8 years? is the pay for the boutique firms similar to the top firms or still higher than working for a fortune 500? i cant seem to find the answers to the questions im asking through my own research so it would help if you older people help me with some info. thanks</p>
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question, other than the big mc firms, are there any legitimate boutique consulting firms?
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<p>Sure, lots. The problem is that few of them hire anybody straight from undergrad. For example, I know a few extremely high-end boutique consulting firms that could easily be said to be far more high-end than McKinsey is. The problem is, everybody who is working there is basically a tenured university professor (usually at Harvard, Wharton, or MIT). </p>
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is there a stigma to staying with a consulting firm all the way and not just leaving in 2-8 years?
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<p>There's no 'stigma' and in fact it's quite impressive if you manage to make it that far. </p>
<p>The issue is that for most people, consulting isn't what they really want to do long-term. I would argue that the vast majority of people who enter consulting know full well that it's just a temporary gig. The fact is, once you've made it to the senior level or higher, you can probably make far more money by going into industry. </p>
<p>As a case in point, Ray Lane was a former senior partner at Booz Allen Hamilton. However, he was enticed to leave BAH to become President of Oracle because of the earning potential. Basically, Oracle offered Lane a stock option package that could potentially make him far far more money than he would ever make at BAH. Lane eventually became a billionaire at Oracle from his stock options. There is no way in hell he would ever have made that kind of money at BAH.</p>
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is the pay for the boutique firms similar to the top firms or still higher than working for a fortune 500?
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<p>Like I said, the truth is, you can make far more money in senior management in industry than you can as a consultant. Most of this compensation will be in the form of stock options or other such equity or bonus-based compensation. Nevertheless, the point is, if you obtain a senior management position at a regular company and that company does well, you will do very very well provided you have negotiated your compensation package well. </p>
<p>However, I would shy away from terms like "Fortune 500". The truth is, the Fortune 500 is filled with a lot of dogs. The Fortune 500 simply means a publicly traded company that is among the top 500 in sales revenue. But just because a company has lots of sales revenue doesn't mean that it's a good company for talented people to work at. For example, GM is a Fortune 500 company (I think #3). But considering their financial woes, honestly, who really wants to work for them? GM is being legitimately threatened with possible bankruptcy in the next 5 years, having lost $10 billion in 2005. Honestly, who really wants to work for a company that might go bankrupt in the near future? Or take Delphi Automotive, which is #63 on the Fortune 500, and is ACTUALLY bankrupt right now (filed for Chapter 11 in Oct, 2005). </p>
<p>The point is, I think the real key is a 'good industry company', not necessarily a Fortune 500 company. A lot of Fortune 500 companies are ossified and frankly just don't offer good opportunities. I'd much rather work for a small company that has lots of potential than work for a large but dying company like Delphi.</p>
<p>although I don't think there is a stigma with staying in consulting for a long term the only problem is that when you do want to make a switch over into industry it might be hard to find a job as you might be considered too much of a generalist and not an expert in the industry like the firms are looking for. A friend of mine, a partner at texas pacific group, told me that when he left bain after staying there 8 years he couldn't really find a job in industry because of this reason. So he took a job as the operating partner for TPG...but he still wants to move into industry and finds it increasingly hard. He says that if you really want to go into industry consulting is a good stepping stone but you need to leave after 4 years so that you can get a good job almost at management level and then move up in the next few years to management.</p>
<p>Bern700, I agree with this partially. However, I still marvel at the high levels of success that high level consulting partners have in making the transition to industry. For example, as I pointed out, Ray Lane left a senior partner position at BAH to become President of Oracle. Lou Gerstner left a senior position at McKinsey to become President of American Express (and then CEO of RJR Nabisco, and then CEO of IBM). Kevin Rollins left a partner position at Bain to become President and later CEO of Dell. Meg Whitman became VP of Bain before jumping to a high level position at Disney (and then eventually becoming CEO of eBay). And of course, perhaps most infamously, Jeff Skilling worked for McKinsey for 13 years before being named to lead a division at Enron (and then eventually becoming CEO of Enron and now headed for jail). </p>
<p>From what I've seen, the problem is not that they can't get an industry job. The real problem is that they can't get an industry job that they think is worthy of them. Hence, their attitude is often that if they can't get a really high level industry position, they'll just stay in consulting. This is similar to the phenomenom of unemployed Harvard MBA's. It's not that they can't get a job, because they obviously can. It's that these guys are looking for a stellar job, and would rather take no job at all rather than take a job that they feel is beneath them.</p>