Good List for BWR URM?

Parent Cafe
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<p>^^^Agree totally, JHS. Just wanted to be sure OP and other readers were aware that a business degree is not an undergraduate option at Stanford.

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I also thought JHU with the new B school could be a strong fit. I must confess to thinking about recent murders there and gritty campus issues. I would love opinions/knowledge on this.

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My son goes there. The campus is lovely and in a very nice part of Baltimore. Many people confuse it with the location of JHU Med School, which - in some people's opinions - is not in such a nice area. A couple of years ago, there was a murder just off campus of a JHU student. However, I think if one ruled out schools where there had been crime/violence/even murders .... it would leave out a lot of urban and rural campuses. A lot. Penn would be one of them.</p>

<p>For me, I don't use that, ergo, as a criterion. YMMV.</p>

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<p>If you consider a starting slot on Wall Street a good entry-level position for international business then she should consider Princeton - unless she's visited and didn't like the suburban location.</p>

<p>The Woodrow Wilson School is widely considered to be one of the top 5 departments in the country for politics, international included. Up there with Harvard's Kennedy School. It is competitive, you apply as as sophomore. <a href="http://wws.princeton.edu/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://wws.princeton.edu/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The ORFE department is in Engineering. You can get a certificate in Finance. At Princeton they don't have minors and you can't double major. So you get a certificate in addition to your major. I am pretty sure that you can be in the WW School and still get the certificate in Finance. ORFE stands for Operations Research and Financial Engineering. Princeton has astonishing connections to Wall Street - summer internships, first year out, all of it. It is as close as Princeton gets to having a "business" major. It's pretty quantitative. <a href="http://orfe.princeton.edu/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://orfe.princeton.edu/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I know you can major in ORFE and get a WW certificate. Just not sure about the other way around.</p>

<p>I am one, in business that is quite international LOL as we have almost all our people in China, who is a little uncomfortable hiring people with undergraduate business degrees. It's nice to hire kids who have taken a broad view.</p>

<p>Don't you love that we are recruiting you to "our" schools? Enjoy. Your daughter deserves the recognition for her achievements and talents.</p>

<p>As for diversity, my son is looking for a diverse school so I did some looking around. Here are the sheer racial diversity statistics. Stanford rules in this area.</p>

<p>Princeton
African-American 9%
Asian-American 13%
Hispanic 7%
Native American 1%
White 62%
International 9%</p>

<p>Harvard
African-American 8%
Asian-American 18%
Hispanic 8%
Native American 1%
White 56%
International 9%</p>

<p>Yale
African-American 8%
Asian-American 14%
Hispanic 7%
Native American 1%
White 62%
International 8%</p>

<p>Stanford
African-American 10%
Asian-American 24%
Hispanic 11%
Native American 2%
White 46%
International 6%</p>

<p>U Penn
African-American 7%
Asian-American 18%
Hispanic 6%
Native American 0%
White 60%
International 9%</p>

<p>Duke
African-American 11%
Asian-American 14%
Hispanic 7%
Native American 0%
White 63%
International 5%</p>

<p>Dartmouth
African-American 7%
Asian-American 14%
Hispanic 6%
Native American 3%
White 65%
International 5%</p>

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<p>I second, third, fourth what everyone says about your daughter's chances of acceptance and add Columbia into the mix. Columbia has a diverse, highly international population. Although it doesn't have a business school, it does have econ and IR and phenomenal internships and more campus life than NYU.</p>

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<p>I don't think Huntsman, or indeed Wharton, really has competition in the undergraduate business studies realm, if you can afford it. There are other high-quality undergraduate business programs and strong universities, of course, and some of them might be significantly cheaper with in-state tuition (Haas) or merit aid, or in a location someone might prefer to Penn's. But in terms of combining faculty quality, student quality, and external prestige, Wharton rules, and the Huntsman program is something of a gold standard.</p>

<p>The real competition is not doing undergraduate business studies per se at all. First, even a Wharton undergraduate degree is not a substitute for an MBA in the business-world sectors where an MBA matters. And HYPS do not lack for strong students who will be pursuing careers in business. Studying economics, or international relations, or Latin American studies, or whatever at HYPS or equivalent schools, and pursuing the opportunities those schools afford for business internships and networking, and making certain to take a few key economics/finance courses if you're not majoring in economics or a few key courses in other fields if you are -- that's a perfectly good path to take, too, and you may even wind up ahead after the MBA dust has settled. There are other benefits, too. At Stanford, for instance, it's almost impossible not to hang out with engineers, at least socially, and that's probably as important a boost to one's international business career as anything Wharton offers. So is its Pacific Rim focus. Alumother makes a great case for the Wilson School. I think Latin American studies at Harvard is stronger than at Penn.</p>

<p>So if your daughter is dead-set on studying "business", then Wharton and Huntsman probably ought to be a clear first choice. (If she doesn't clutch up at jmmom's suggestion she might be murdered there. Puh-lease!) But whether she really ought to be dead-set on studying business is a much tougher question, even if she's dead-set on a business career.</p>

<p>Anyway, none of these schools entails any real risk. They're all wonderful. Even if she decides after a year or two that she'd rather be Mother Teresa than Meg Whitman, she'll be in a great place. She shouldn't stress too much about subtle differences in the fabulous opportunities she's likely to have, and just prepare herself to suck all the juice out of whichever one she picks.</p>

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<p>I'm surprised that the diversity statistics posted by Alumother are all the same! Are the classes racially constructed so rigidly to the exclusion of other qualifying criteria? I mean, what are the chances that the proportions would be so similar?</p>

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<p>I would much rather see daughter get a liberal arts undergrad education. She is a strong willed child with firm ideas of her own!</p>

<p>DD has the idea that an MBA will not be as essential coming from Wharton. She has spoken to some women working on Wall Street that suggested the Wharton route might be better for someone who may have kids before she's 40. May give her more challenging assignments/opportunities young so she's better positioned early if she wants to take a few years off. As one who has struggled with the balance I liked that she was thinking about it, but is this true?</p>

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<p>
[quote]
what are the chances that the proportions would be so similar

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</p>

<p>Given that the schools' applicant pools are essentially identical, and that their admissions criteria are essentially identical, too, I would say that the chances their proportions would be similar are sky high. Stanford's are a little bit different because its applicant pool and admissions criteria are both a little different (more Californiacentric in both cases), but not very much, and Dartmouth has more Native Americans than the other East Coast schools because it works hard at that to honor its history.</p>

<p>Their tuitions and fees are remarkably similar too! Does anyone find that surprising? They are direct competitors -- you should expect them to be much more similar than they are different.</p>

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<p>Yes, I guess you are right JHS. Not so surprising after all given the same applicants and the same criteria.</p>

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<p>Given the popularity of business careers for this generation, it's surprising Wharton has no real competition! Would Stern be second overall given it's NYC advantages?</p>

<p>Anything else similar to Huntsman?</p>

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<p>If you look at the statistics carefully I believe actually they will have a big impact. Dartmouth, 65% white. Stanford, 46% white. That feels substantively different IMO. Will the difference between as one of the non-white categories make a difference? Princeton, 13% Asian, Harvard 18% Asian. Think of how it feels perhaps to have a more than 1/3 increase in your particular group. I can't speak to that from personal experience however.</p>

<p>I'm not sure that UCgradmary's D is too focused on this aspect however. It was just something my son has focused on.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Harvard: The best brand in the world, a lot of international students and contacts, a wonderful location, great economics, great area studies. What's not to love?

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</p>

<p>
[quote]
Econ major with secondary concentration, depending on her interests, e.g., #2 from the Dept. of Government here <a href="http://www.gov.harvard.edu/pub/under...oncentrations/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.gov.harvard.edu/pub/under...oncentrations/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>-Superb liberal arts, including languages</p>

<p>-Change of coast from Cali for a broader perspective</p>

<p>-Lots of international students and contacts (bears repeating)

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It is everything JHS and Mudder's Mudder said, but if it doesn't float your boat, it just doesn't :)</p>

<p>Still, S just today received a postcard from a classmate in Beijing, one of a horde of Havard students spending the summer there on Harvard's dime. There is also a student outfit called HPAIR that organizes very high profile conferences in Asia. They've managed to line up some really big names to attend those conferences and to get themselves to Asia.</p>

<p>I agree with those who say that a strong econ major combined with area studies is a terrific background for a business career. If women's colleges appeal, Wellesley has a great econ department and a great Asian studies department. Your D could also consider MIT's Sloan school.</p>

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<p>On the MBA issue:</p>

<p>In part of the business world -- the toney, investment banking, billion-dollar financial, etc. part -- an MBA is indispensible for advancement, and a Wharton undergrad degree is not a substitute. (Partly, the networking and social contacts of the MBA program are a significant part of what people get out of it.) In this sector, it hardly matters whether you actually learn anything in an MBA program; you simply aren't a candidate for any meaningful job without one.</p>

<p>In lots of the business world, an MBA isn't necessary at all, unless there are specific skills you don't have that you could learn in an MBA program more easily than on the job. No one asked Bill Gates whether he had an MBA. (He did, however, hire Steve Ballmer pretty early on.)</p>

<p>If you are working your way up from the bottom in a smooth, organic way, and performing excellently at each level, you may never need an MBA. Performance always counts more than credentials if people are really able to judge performance. The problem, however, comes when you want to change jobs or change companies before you have a clear track record that is plain to see. That's where the MBA credential and socialization is really useful. </p>

<p>I don't know enough about people's real career paths in big business to know how to answer the babies question, but I would urge your daughter to look really carefully. She might get off to a faster start with just a Wharton undergrad degree, but it might take longer to get to the point where her performance credentials were solid enough to let her step back for a while and be confident of her ability to return at a high level. I would be interested to hear people's real-world experiences.</p>

<p>I have two semi-relevant examples. My sister has the kind of job MBAs die for, and all she has is a BA in Spanish from Stanford (plus some professional accreditation she got along the way). But it took her into her 40s before it stopped mattering to her compensation and job opportunities that she didn't have the MBA. Well into her late 30s she was working for relatively small organizations, under the radar, and when she finally got her big break it was because she created something new within her company and nurtured it from nothing to something. Had she ever taken a year or two off, her career would have come to a juddering halt (and probably she would have had to get an MBA to restart it).</p>

<p>My wife has the "wrong" credential for her work, and she probably could have done just fine without it. She changed careers, though, after she had her children (when our younger child was 15 months old and she was just 32), and nothing she did after that was remotely mommy-tracked. She worked like a dog for five years to establish her bona-fides, and with the exception of a couple years in a dead-end job (albeit one that changed her focus a lot and provided really invaluable contacts) she has worked harder every year since as more and better opportunities have come her way. If she were to give advice, she would say use the comparative leisure and flexibility of graduate school to have your kids.</p>

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<p>I have found that the combination of an undergrad in Comp Lit from a name brand U combined with an MBA from a top 10 business school gave me enormous flexibility around taking time off to have children, going back consulting/part-time, hiring in at 40 to an industry where I had little experience just because of the degrees etc. My advice is to go that route - but that's just because of my own anecdotal experience. No statistics, in other words, to support my approach. I only wish I had had the flexibility not to work at all haha, but that's another story.</p>

<p>I had my first child at 30 and my second and last at 33. I took 4 years off to stay home, and did not go back to work fulltime until I was 40. I was promoted to managerial responsibilities very quickly, despite having had no management experience before I left to have my kids (good sales track record though), and at one point had something like 25 people working for me. Now I am still a VP, but in a startup and so no staff.</p>

<p>My career had I wanted to do more, if I had the stern stuff for it, could have been quite something. My kids, of course, are:).</p>

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<p>Two male friends that my family hanged around with in the 80s, both had undergraduate degree from Wharton, both very agressive. I think they were making half a million when I knew them, however, when the banks they worked on downsized they both got laid off, one as director of a bank. I lost track of them since, so don't know where they landed . I agree with the poster who said that the career path from the BA to MBA is a better route, I think more flexible.
For example, I even know one that went to San Jose State for undergraduate and got an MBA from UCLA(not top business school), last time I heard she was making 7-digit salary overseas. Those were just a few data points for your D to consider.</p>

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<p>Sidebar: <a href="If%20she%20doesn't%20clutch%20up%20at%20jmmom's%20suggestion%20she%20might%20be%20murdered%20there%20%5Bat%20UPenn%5D.%20Puh-lease!">quote</a>

[/quote]
I must have done a really poor piece of writing in my post above on the "danger" factor at some campuses. I certainly NEVER meant to imply that one should worry about being murdered at Penn. On the contrary, in responding to a worry that JHU might be a scary choice because someone had been murdered near that campus, what I was trying to say is that .... one would have to rule out a lot of truly excellent schools if one was going to rule out any school where dangerous crimes (even murders) had occurred in recent memory. Sadly, these things happen at many, many campuses - or near them.</p>

<p>I </p>

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<p>What an unusual list of colleges your daughter has, UCGRADMARY. Did she really see these colleges in session? Did she take a close look at the students? If she likes schools like Wake Forest or Duke, Smith and NYU might be a poor fit. Personally, I think that the very best education for a businesswoman is undergraduate liberal arts, followed by 3-5 years of working, and then Harvard, Stanford or Wharton for an MBA. Vanderbilt or USC might give your daughter merit aid, but they might not be the best fit for your daughter. One optional safety is to apply regular decision to U Michigan very early in the fall. It is rolling decision, and I believe all the early decision/ restricted early action schools allow public university regular decision applications. I think that your daughter will definitely get in. By the way, Yale is the most popular undergraduate school on the east coast for women. Women like the residential college system.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
By the way, Yale is the most popular undergraduate school on the east coast for women. Women like the residential college system.

[/quote]
??? ??? ?</p>

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<p>GWU and American are too far down the list for your kiddo with her stats, private schooling and terms abroad. Fine for freshman year but not enough challenge for junior and senior year.</p>

<p>If you don't believe me, be SURE you meet with high-performing kids from her private school at either of those schools before you sign up. It's tough to get your courses at one, therefore tough to get your major, therefore tough to get your Study Abroad. One of the stellar students from my son's class is a women's studies major because she couldn't get enough courses in English. Look at the catalogues. Check the depth of offerings at the 300, 400 and 500 levels.</p>

<p>The other school has a huge percentage of commuters. </p>

<p>Tufts is a better safety. Good economics department. Good IR dept.</p>

<p>Georgetown is better.</p>

<p>What kind of environment does she want? Rah-rah? City? Cutthroat? I think you've mentioned that she doesn't need aid?</p>

<p>Wake Forest seems like the curve ball to me.</p>

<p>What sort of International Business? PM momrath for advice on International Business careers...</p>

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<p>DD has not seen all in session but does know the basic character of each school. I don't question that she would be happy most places.</p>

<p>Any thoughts on safeties?</p>

<p>Cheers, Tufts a safety? Really? I am also afraid DD will get bored at small schools. She has been out there and has had the good fortune of a liberal arts HS education where they actually cover lots of the core at Columbia.</p>

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<p>Tufts is a realistic match/safety for your D--with her stats. Don't forget they have TWO rounds of ED. I f she gets rejected from her ED (ain't gonna happen), she can always apply 2nd ED to Tufts.</p>

<p>What do her GCs say? Where is she on your school scattergrams?</p>

<p>One of 150? Holy cow! I owuld have loved those odds!</p>

<p>Sorry Tufts--but in this one instance--it's true. ;)</p>

<p>GWU isn't small but getting the challenge out of it....that's tough for a kid who already has a LAC education. btw...I know exactly what you're talking about when you say that she's already done the core.</p>

<p>I went to undergrad with kids from Harkness table private schools--and those kids were bored by freshman year. They had already done it. In high school. Make sure the school and the CITY have enough matter in them to keep a spoon-fed child hungry.</p>