A tutoring client should have at least 1400 SATs, but he has a 3.2 GPA with no honors classes. We have done a lot of lessons, I am really good, he is smart but is interested in sports and has not been applying himself, and like some other athletes he is really good with the tricky questions. I am pretty sure he is good enough athletically for a D1 scholarship, but is not a prime recruit. His parents could afford and probably would pay tuition for an Ivy or D3 top LAC.
My question is what level of school could he get into academically if they want him for the team? I would think Ivies would want higher GPA with some AP classes and want subject test scores. Would he be acceptable academically for like Michigan or Georgia Tech?
First thing is that the answer to your question is going to depend almost entirely on skill level and the particular sport.
Virtually all of what we consider to be high academic schools outside of the Ivy cede a certain number of admissions slots to the athletic department that the AD can use how they choose, as long as the recruit hits certain objective benchmarks. I know this to be the case in the revenue sports, and I have heard conflicting things on whether it applies in the smaller sports as well. I am pretty confident that a 3.2 unweighted and a 1400 (assuming he meets other requirements like number of required credits, etc.) gets him in anywhere as a revenue sport recruit except possibly Stanford. Others will know better about the smaller sports and what is required, but my guess would be that his stats probably won’t shut him out of many places in most sports. Realize though that the athletic bar that needs to be crossed in most sports in D1 is really high.
For the Ivy, the concern would be the mismatch in scores/grades and a lack of rigor. As a top recruit in the Ivy in a revenue sport his stats should not be a bar. It is probably not an absolute bar in most if not all sports, assuming again that he is a top of the class type recruit. Of course, the farther away you get from top recruit, the bigger the problem his stats will pose. More importantly, one of the consistent problems we find with Ivy admissions is that the schools really don’t like mismatched stats, and HYP in particular do not like lack of rigor in the curriculum. Because the Ivy does not cede control of admissions slots to the AD, and each recruit must pass the admissions committee, I would think a kid like you describe would be sweating the likely letter review, and could not count on getting admitted.
I think the same issues apply with the high academic D3 schools as apply in the Ivy. Many here will tell you that the really high academic D3s can’t bend as far as the Ivys to take borderline academic recruits, which may very well be true and could impose additional problems. On the other hand, if the kid is a legit D1 prospect he is likely to be the superstar recruit in any NESCAC or other high D3 recruiting class and the coach may be willing to spend more capital on him than a coach at a higher level. So even assuming that the threshold to be recruited is higher at a D3 than an Ivy, if the kid crossed the threshold, he may have an easier time being admitted because of his athletic chops. It is all kind of inter related, if that makes sense.
Thanks.It is sort of a major sport, but not a revenue sport. I am pretty sure he is not a top recruit, but good enough for a scholarship, and probably a star at D3.
D3 is something that I will discuss with them, and is a good backup plan if for some reason he isn’t good enough athletically for a scholarship. I am not sure if they would want to shell out the $s if he can go to a decent D1 school for free. Plus it might be an adjustment for him with the preppy atmosphere and being below most students academically.
[quote[I am pretty sure he is not a top recruit, but good enough for a scholarship, and probably a star at D3.
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I think you are confusing a few things. There are no D3 scholarships. There are very very very few full D1 scholarships, only in football and basketball for men, and some kids do get a chunk of scholarship money in a few sports (hockey).
Many D3 players are good, and could have been D1 recruits but they decided on D3 for academic reasons, liked the size of the school, wanted more playing time. My daughter was recruited at all 3 levels and could have been a starter at some D3’s but not at others. Same with D1. No chance at any scholarship at all (or even making the team) at D1 teams in the top 10, but probably a lot of money and a starting position at teams ranked 50-75.
Your job is to get him the highest scores possible to get him into any school he wants to play for. In the end, he’ll have to weigh the academic rank against the athletic opportunities, but if he can’t get in academically, all the skill in the world won’t help him.
When my D sent her grades/test scores to one top D3 LAC for a preread, the coach responded back that my daughters few B’s may be a problem. Ended up the preread came back positive, My non playing S had a 2290 on the old SAT and a 3.4 GPA. Some schools gave him large amounts of merit, others gave him much less and some denied him admission. What I heard from the admissions folks was that he was labeled a kid who could (test scores) but one who didn’t (grades). I am sure at some schools support from the coach would help but would not push him to a rigorous college. If he isn’t doing the work in HS, why would that change in college?
I know there are no D3 scholarships. The client can afford tuition. I thought there were D1 scholarships for most sports, but the client doesn’t need a full scholarship. I am more concerned with whether he is recruitable for D1 than a scholarship.
Outside of D1 football and basketball which are “head count sports” – the other sports are “equivalency” sports, where the NCAA sets the maximum number of scholarships per team, based on the “equivalency” of full scholarship. Say a full scholarship is $70,000. Men’s D1 soccer gets the equivalent of 9.9 full scholarships so under $700,000 to distribute in scholarships among the team. With a roster often close to 30 guys (and a starting line of 11 guys), Men’s Soccer often has few, if any, full scholarships offered, with some guys getting 1/2 scholarships and most getting less.
For Ivy League, there are no athletic scholarships. In terms of academics required for Ivy League, google info on the AI – a formula generating a number which the Ivy League schools agree to use in determining admissions for recruited athletes. Or use the search function on this forum to pull up thread talking about AI and floors for various Ivy League sports.
We didn’t go through D1 recruiting with my kid, he knew he wanted small, so I defer to the more experienced D1 parents here. However, my understanding is that, if the goal is to use sports to get into an Ivy, then the student would have to be a major impact player on the team to make up for what is likely to be a lower AI with that gpa. If the goal is to use academics to get into a top school, since the student is not a top recruit, to bring up the team’s AI, it doesn’t sound like this student is going to have an AI which would significantly help the team.
A D1 recruit who is a serious prospect is usually getting serious interest from coaches at tournaments, camps etc. by this time in junior year. If an athlete is finishing sophomore year, they should be strategizing about camps or tournament play for this summer, depending on the sport, to get seen by D1 coaches. If that is not on the family’s wavelength, search this board for info on the specific sport.
I think you are asking if a recruited athlete can have a lower gpa/test scores than a non-hooked applicant. Yes, he can. The next question has to be how much lower. That will depend on the level of the athletic ability and the school, and how good the other recruits are.
We have a friend who was the best lacrosse player in the state. He attended a top college prep school, but he was not a top student. That really limited his options for colleges. The Ivies were out. Stanford and the PAC 12 don’t have men’s lacrosse. He probably could have gone to ND or Duke, but that would have taken a lot of coach’s support. He knew those schools weren’t academic fits for him. Instead, he picked a mid-level academic school.
If he wasn’t the best lacrosse player in the state, he’d have had fewer choices for college. He would have needed coach’s support to get in academically, and it might not have been there for an average player.
Just wondering whether this is the same student whose family was considering the private college in England for soccer?
If this kid is playing Academy soccer, then he should be able to get good recruiting advice from his club about what level program he should look at – often players will be told things like “top D1” or “mid to lower D1” or “top D3.” This is the time to get informed advice from his club coaches who know his play and where he fits for recruiting.
He thinks mid D1, but I will tell him to ask his coaches. I don’t think a half scholarship or whatever is a big issue as far as money. I was more interested in what level of school he could get into academically. His parents would pay for Ivy if he could get in, but I doubt he qualifies academically.
The challenge is – to use athletic contribution to as a way into an Ivy League school, you generally have to be really really good at your sport, which it doesn’t sound like this guy is. Or, you have to be very good, and an exceptional student who could help the AI, which doesn’t sound like this guy either, since that unweighted gpa is going to hurt the AI. If you broaden the search, schools that may be considered peers of some of the Ivy League schools, such as Duke, often field stronger teams than the Ivy League, at least in soccer.
Looking at Massey ranking, which is one independent ranking system for college soccer, there are about 200 D1 programs. If you look at schools between 100-150, you have schools like BU, Princeton, Northwestern. Between 150-200, you have Yale and American. When my kid was beginning recruiting, we looked at the rosters of various schools to see the bios of players and even Yale, which then was something like #200 out of 201 D1 teams at that point, had Academy players who had been on teams which won major national tournaments or guys who were all state, state and regional champions who went to nationals etc.
I will also tell him to look at the Massey rankings. I was advising him that I thought he might have a shot at D1 schools that are like to 100 academically, but the GPA might stand in the way for like top 50 schools. I guess he will find out more from coaches. I am partly interested in helping the student, but also I thought this might generate some interesting discussion that might help other students.
Not a top recruit…not top grades…coaches and AdComs feel high test scores and mediocre grades mean “lazy” and possibly likely to get into academic trouble, so not highly desirable.
Don’t bother with Ivies or NESCACs. It’s easier to called yourself a “poor test taker”.
That’s OK, it is better than 3.2 no honors with 1000 SATs. That’s why we put the work into it. Parents would be happy with a top 150 academically D1 school. He should be able to do better than that.
My athlete daughter had good gpa, okay ACT, and is in one of those top 150 academic schools, and yes, I was happy with it. She didn’t like the LACs and some of those recruiting her were in the top 50. Just didn’t like the schools or the teams.
It worked out academically as she is graduating and has a job (my favorite part!). It worked out athletically as she’s won a lot of honors and will go to the NCAA tournament for the second year. A higher ranking athletically or academically doesn’t mean the school is a better fit for the student.
Don’t let the USNWR rankings control your decisions.
If the parents are fine with a D1 school ranked in terms of academics to 150, then he can probably find a school where he can play and be admitted. But that doesn’t mean he will get partial athletic scholarship, let alone one that will make much of a difference at a $70,000. a year school.
It sounds as though the parents can pay full price, but are only willing to do so for Ivy League and top D3s, so are counting on athletic award to reduce cost of attendance elsewhere. It doesn’t sound like they understand how limited Men’s Soccer scholarships are at the D1 level unless someone is truly a top national recruit, which he doesn’t sound like he is. I would encourage the family to do some reading here on this board about D1 and D2 Men’s Soccer scholarships and about D1, D2 and D3 recruiting.
If he is going into his junior year, he should be deciding which recruiting camps to go to this summer, emailing coaches with his soccer resume and academic info in advance of attendance. Same approach if his club team is playing state cup or significant regional tournaments where college coaches will be watching. At tournaments, coaches don’t wander around watching games and stumble on someone they are intrigued by. They go to specific matches to watch a player who has contacted them, given them their match schedule field number, jersey number etc. The coach may appear for a short amount of time to see if they are interested in the player.
There are some (not many) D3 public schools, usually directional or state schools. Given his grades, your client might find a better fit with one of those, depending on where he lives and if the school has a swim team. There’s more to D3 athletics than the Ivies and NESCAC LACs for an average-to-good student, should the D1 “top 150s” prove unsuitable for whatever reason. I totally agree with whoever upthread said not to let USNWR rankings have more influence than they should. Are D2 schools off the table? I know next-to-nothing about them.
The NCAA website has a map of member institutions that can be filtered by sport, division, conference, state, and public/private/HBCU. It might bring other options to light. Good luck!