Undergraduate schools-Which are most commonly found at top Law Schools?

hawkette · April 17, 2007, 11:58am

Also Posted in College Search & Selection:

Matriculation to law schools has changed over the past decade or two as top law schools increasingly prefer that their students spend some time in the “real world.” Thus, many (most?) top law schools today have 33% or fewer of their students coming directly from undergraduate schools. This lessens the importance of the undergraduate institution in the law school admission process and, just as with graduate business school admissions, elevates the importance of time spent working after the undergraduate years.

Nonetheless, some students like to know the grad school placement record of a college and try to understand how their selection of an undergraduate school might affect their chances at law school acceptance. Law schools will insist that the undergraduate school is not that critical and it is the rigor of the curriculum and the student’s performance that will most determine the value of the four years spent in college.

In checking the websites of a number of top law schools, very few will fully post the undergraduate schools of their law students. However, Yale Law, Harvard Law, and Virginia Law do provide this information which allowed me to compile the following information on the top 50 “feeders” to these schools. While these results are not an exact statement of how each of the “feeder” schools fare at the entire universe of top law schools, it is probably a pretty good proxy. If anyone has matriculation data on any of the other top law schools (eg, NYU, Columbia, Georgetown, U Penn, Duke, Vanderbilt, U Texas, U Chicago, Northwestern, U Michigan, Stanford, UC Berkeley, UCLA, etc), would you please post it and I will try to add it to my analysis.

Based on Absolute Numbers at Yale Law, Harvard Law, and Virginia Law, following are the numbers of students from these undergraduate schools (*Note: numbers from Yale, Harvard and Virginia are likely to be comparatively inflated as those law schools likely give higher weight to students from their own school or have an in-state matriculation requirement).

<li>Harvard (339 graduates)</li>
<li>Yale (209) </li>
<li>Stanford (125)</li>
<li>Princeton (97)</li>
<li>U Penn (71)</li>
<li>U Virginia (69)</li>
<li>Columbia (69)</li>
<li>UC Berkeley (68)</li>
<li>Brown (66)</li>
<li>Duke (65)</li>
<li>Dartmouth (59)</li>
<li>Cornell (59)</li>
<li>UCLA (50)</li>
<li>Georgetown (45)</li>
<li>Brigham Young (41)</li>
<li>U Texas (36)</li>
<li>Notre Dame (35)</li>
<li>Amherst (33)</li>
<li>Williams (33)</li>
<li>Northwestern (30)</li>
<li>U Michigan (30)</li>
<li>NYU (26)</li>
<li>U North Carolina (26)</li>
<li>Emory (23)</li>
<li>Rice (21)</li>
<li>U Chicago (21)</li>
<li>Vanderbilt (20)</li>
<li>USC (20)</li>
<li>W&M (20)</li>
<li>Swarthmore (18)</li>
<li>MIT (17)</li>
<li>Brandeis (15)</li>
<li>U Washington (15)</li>
<li>Wash U (14)</li>
<li>Wesleyan (13)</li>
<li>Tufts (12)</li>
<li>Middlebury (11)</li>
<li>Boston College (11)</li>
<li>Pomona (11)</li>
<li>Wellesley (9)</li>
<li>U Wisconsin (9)</li>
<li>Carnegie Mellon (7)</li>
<li>Carleton (7)</li>
<li>Wake Forest (6)</li>
<li>Bowdoin (6)</li>
<li>Johns Hopkins (6)</li>
<li>Haverford (3)</li>
<li>Davidson (3)</li>
<li>Vassar (3)</li>
<li>Caltech (2)</li>
<li>U Rochester (2)</li>
<li>Lehigh (2)</li>
</ol>

Another, probably better, way to evaluate this is to consider the enrollment at each undergraduate school and calculate what % of its students find their way to the top law schools. These numbers reveal the great feeder strength of the LACs and expose the relative weakness of those schools with much larger student bodies. However, the percentages for some universities may be a bit understated because those schools also have good Law Schools that would likely accept higher than average numbers of students from their own undergraduate bodies and/or in order to meet in-state requirements. However, this phenomenon is widespread and likely would not dramatically change the results. Examples of undergraduate schools with high ranking Law Schools include NYU, Cornell, Georgetown, Columbia, Duke, Emory, Vanderbilt, W&M, U Texas, U Chicago, U Michigan, Northwestern, UC Berkeley, UCLA, Stanford. USC.

<li>Harvard (339 graduates, enrollment of 6649, 5.10% of its enrollment)</li>
<li>Yale (209, 5409, 3.86%)</li>
<li>Amherst (33, 1623, 2.03%)</li>
<li>Princeton (97, 4906, 1.98%)</li>
<li>Stanford (125, 6576, 1.90%)</li>
<li>Williams (33, 2017, 1.64%)</li>
<li>Dartmouth (59, 4110, 1.44%)</li>
<li>Swarthmore (18, 1479, 1.22%)</li>
<li>Brown (66, 6176, 1.07%)</li>
<li>Duke (65, 6534, 0.99%)</li>
<li>Columbia (69, 7319, 0.94%)</li>
<li>U Penn (71, 9841, 0.72%)</li>
<li>Pomona (11, 1533, 0.72%)</li>
<li>Georgetown (45, 6719, 0.67%)</li>
<li>Rice (21, 3185, 0.66%)</li>
<li>U Virginia (69, 14213, 0.49%)</li>
<li>Wesleyan (13, 2764, 0.47%)</li>
<li>Brandeis (15, 3267, 0.46%)</li>
<li>Middlebury (11, 2455, 0.45%)</li>
<li>U Chicago (21, 4671, 0.45%)</li>
<li>Cornell (59, 13,515, 0.44%)</li>
<li>MIT (17, 4066, 0.42%)</li>
<li>Notre Dame (35, 8275, 0.42%)</li>
<li>Wellesley (9, 2331, 0.39%)</li>
<li>Northwestern (30, 8023, 0.37%)</li>
<li>Emory (23, 6510, 0.35%)</li>
<li>W&M (20, 5594, 0.36%)</li>
<li>Bowdoin (6, 1666, 0.36%)</li>
<li>Carleton (7, 1959, 0.36%)</li>
<li>Vanderbilt (20, 6400, 0.31%)</li>
<li>UC Berkeley (68, 23482, 0.29%)</li>
<li>Haverford (3, 1168, 0.26%)</li>
<li>Tufts (12, 5078, 0.24%)</li>
<li>Caltech (2, 913, 0.22%)</li>
<li>UCLA (50, 24811, 0.20%)</li>
<li>Wash U (14, 7466, 0.19%)</li>
<li>Davidson (3, 1683, 0.18%)</li>
<li>U North Carolina (26, 16764, 0.16%)</li>
<li>Wake Forest (6, 4263, 0.14%)</li>
<li>NYU (26, 20,566, 0.13%)</li>
<li>Brigham Young (41, 30,798, 0.13%)</li>
<li>Vassar (3, 2378, 0.13%)</li>
<li>Boston College (11, 9019, 0.12%)</li>
<li>U Michigan (30, 25467, 0.12%)</li>
<li>USC (20, 16897, 0.12%)</li>
<li>Carnegie Mellon (7, 5623, 0.12%)</li>
<li>Johns Hopkins (6, 5678, 0.11%)</li>
<li>U Texas (36, 36878, 0.10%)</li>
<li>U Washington (15, 27488, 0.05%)</li>
<li>Lehigh (2, 4679, 0.04%)</li>
<li>U Rochester (2, 4696, 0.04%)</li>
<li>U Wisconsin (9, 30106, 0.03%)</li>
</ol>

trizkutt · April 17, 2007, 1:49pm

I don't think those #'s are correct. The University of Iowa matriculated 3 people to Harvard Law in the last 3 years, which means there are at 3 people least Harvard Law from Iowa. I'm sure Yale/Uva have at least one or two more.

trizkutt · April 17, 2007, 1:56pm

G'town's 2002 incoming class profile

American University
7
Amherst College 3
Arizona State University 2
Baker University 1
Barnard College- Columbia 2
Barry University 1
Bates College 2
Baylor University 2
Bernard M. Baruch College - CUNY 1
Biola University 1
Bishop's University 1
Boston College 1
Boston University 2
Bowdoin College 3
Brigham Young University 6
Brooklyn College - CUNY 1
Brown University 14
Bucknell University 1
California Institute of Technology 1
California Lutheran University 1
California State University - Sacramento 1
Canisius College 1
Carnegie Mellon University 2
Case Western Reserve University 2
Catholic University of America 2
Claremont McKenna College 1
Colby College 1
College of Santa Fe 1
College of the Holy Cross 4
College of William and Mary 6
Columbia University SC ENG AP SCI NY 1
Columbia University SC GENL STUDY NY 1
Columbia University - Columbia College 8
Cornell University - NY 14
Dartmouth College 4
Davidson College 4
Dickinson College 1
Duke University 13
East China University of SCI & TECH 1
Eastman School of Music U R NY 1
Eckerd College 1
Emory University 6
Fairfield University 1
Florida College 1
Florida International University 2
Florida State University 2
Frostburg State University 1
Fudan University 1
Furman University 1
Gallatin SCH OF INDIV STUDY - New York UNV 1
George Mason University 1
George Washington University 9
Georgetown University 38
Georgia Institute of Technology 2
Georgia State University 2
Goddard College 1
Gonzaga University 1
Goucher College 2
Hamilton College 2
Hamline University 1
Hampton University 1
Harvard University 16
Haverford College 2
Houston Baptist University 1
Howard University 8
Hunter College - CUNY 1
Idaho State University 1
Indiana University - Bloomington 1
Ithaca College 1
Johns Hopkins University 3
Kalamazoo College 1
Kenyon College 2
Lancaster University - U.K. 1
Louisiana State University - Baton Rouge 2
Loyola Marymount University 1
Loyola University - Chicago 1 
Manhattan School Music - NY 1 
Massachusetts Institute of Technology 1
McGill University 2
Michigan State University 1
Middlebury College 5
Mississippi State University 1
Morehouse College 1
Mount Holyoke College 1
Mount Saint Mary's College and Seminary 1
NYU School of CONT & PROF STUDIES 1
Ner Israel Rabbinical College 2
New Mexico Inst. of Mining and Technology 1
New Mexico State University - University Park 1
New York University Tisch School of the Arts 2
New York University - College of Arts and Sciences 7
Norfolk State University 1
Northwestern University 10
Oberlin College 1
Ohio State University 1
Ohio Wesleyan University 1
Oklahoma State University - Stillwater 1
Otterbein College 1
Patrick Henry College 1
Pennsylvania State University - University Park 4
Portland State University 1
Princeton University 10
Providence College 1
Rabbinical Seminary of America 1
Reed College 1
Rice University 3
Rutgers State University - Rutgers College 2
Saint Mary's College of Maryland 2
Santa Clara University 1
Scripps College 1
Seattle University 1
Seoul National University 1
Smith College 3
Southern Methodist University 1
St. Petersburg State University - Russia 1
Stanford University 10
SUNY - Empire State College 1
SUNY - At Stonybrook Center 1 
Swarthmore College 3 
Syracuse University 2 
Temple University 1 
Texas A&M University - College Station 2
Touro College 1
Towson University 1
Trinity College 1
Tufts University 5
Tulane University 4
United States Air Force Academy 2
United States Military Academy 4
United States Naval Academy 5
University of Dublin Trinity College 1
University of Edinburgh - Scotland 1
University of Glasgow 1
University of Alabama 2
University of Arizona 1
University of Baltimore 1
University of California - Berkeley 16
University of California - Irvine 1
University of California - Los Angeles 16
University of California - San Diego 7
University of California - Santa Barbara 6
University of Chicago 3
University of Colorado - Boulder 5
University of Colorado - Denver 1
University of Delhi 1
University of Florida 12
University of Georgia 3
University of Illinois - Urbana 3
University of Iowa 1
University of Maryland - Baltimore County 1
University of Maryland - College Park 6
University of Michigan 9
University of Minnesota 1
University of Mississippi 1
University of Montana 1
University of Nebraska - Lincoln 1
University of New Hampshire 1
University of North Carolina - Chapel Hill 2
University of North Florida 2
University of Northern Colorado 1
University of Notre Dame 6
University of Oklahoma 4
University of Oregon 2
University of Pennsylvania 14
University of Richmond 1
University of San Diego 1
University of Sioux Falls 1
University of South Carolina - Columbia 2
University of Southern California 3
University of Technology, Sydney 1
University of Texas - Arlington 1
University of Texas - Austin 10
University of Utah 1
University of Vermont 2
University of Virginia 6
University of Washington 2
University of Wisconsin - Madison 3
Vanderbilt University 1
Vassar College 1
Wake Forest University 3
Warren Wilson College 1
Washington and Lee University 1
Washington University 4
Weber State University 1
Wellesley College 3
Wesleyan University 3
Western Oregon University 1
Western Washington University 1
Westmont College 1
Williams College 2
Yale University 25
Yeshiva University 3

coolguyusa123 · April 17, 2007, 5:17pm

In fact, the absolute best way to calculate these percentages would be to find the total number of people who applied to law school from each of those undergraduate schools, and find the percentage of them who got into or attend top law schools. This effectively compares comparable populations, while your calculation of percentage includes all undergraduates. At some schools, like JHU or MIT, the percentage of law school applicants per undergraduate population is considerably smaller than at, say, Harvard. In fact, I know (only because I go there) that JHU has something like 100 law school applicants a year. And around a third to a half get into top (i.e. t14) law schools. it's only one example of many.

Greybeard · April 17, 2007, 6:12pm

Individual undergraduate institutions have information on the subject as well. Here are some stats from Princeton's pre-law site:

LAW SCHOOL STATISTICS - 2004-05
School # Applicants # Admitted
AMERICAN 33 22
BOSTON COLLEGE 62 26
BOSTON UNIVERSITY 65 30
COLUMBIA 179 47
DUKE 79 23
FORDHAM 52 20
GEORGETOWN 182 81
GEORGE WASHINGTON 94 40
HARVARD 162 35
NYU 162 58
NORTHWESTERN 50 19
STANFORD 112 17
TEMPLE 23 15
TULANE 8 6
UC BERKELEY 96 17
UCLA 50 14
U of CHICAGO 81 22
U of MICHIGAN 79 29
U of PENN 165 32
UVA 122 38
VANDERBILT 31 12
WILLIAM & MARY 39 18
YALE 90 16

trizkutt · April 17, 2007, 6:42pm

also, when people say "well, the publics/lower tier schools are not that well represented and therefore Law Schools MUST look at the quality/ranking of the UG institution" are missing the point. People that go to those school are for the most part the creme de la creme of high school students, geniuses in their own right already. Their smarts alone (motivation aside) will inherently result in much higher LSAT scores than your average state U student.

By the way, I go to an "average" State U.

lskinner · April 17, 2007, 8:04pm

[quote]
also, when people say "well, the publics/lower tier schools are not that well represented and therefore Law Schools MUST look at the quality/ranking of the UG institution" are missing the point. People that go to those school are for the most part the creme de la creme of high school students, geniuses in their own right already. Their smarts alone (motivation aside) will inherently result in much higher LSAT scores than your average state U student.

[/quote]

I agree. I went to a top law school in the NYC area, and the majority of the kids were from ivy league schools or top liberal arts colleges. However, there were plenty of students from Rutgers and SUNY. My instinct is that a smart, hard-working Princeton graduate would have only a small advantage (in terms of law school admissions) over a similar student who went to Rutgers.

I would also predict that this advantage will deteriorate in the coming years as more and more smart kids from the middle class are locked out of the Ivy League due to high tuitions and low financial aid.

college2go · April 18, 2007, 1:32pm

"I would also predict that this advantage will deteriorate in the coming years as more and more smart kids from the middle class are locked out of the Ivy League due to high tuitions and low financial aid."

You can go to HYP for free if your parents income is less than 60K and pay 40K in Berkeley or Michigan as outstate student.

Americanski · April 18, 2007, 1:50pm

[quote]
Nonetheless, some students like to know the grad school placement record of a college and try to understand how their selection of an undergraduate school might affect their chances at law school acceptance.

[/quote]

It won't affect their chances. Other than curiosity, there's no real reason to even bother looking at the numbers.

hawkette · April 18, 2007, 4:12pm

Greybeard,
Another interesting way to look at your Princeton data is by which are the most popular schools for Princeton students to apply to. Here’s the list:

<ol>
<li> GEORGETOWN 182 81 (Acceptance Rate of 45%)</li>
<li> COLUMBIA 179 47 (26%)</li>
<li> U of PENN 165 32 (19%)</li>
<li> HARVARD 162 35 (22%)</li>
<li> NYU 162 58 (36%)</li>
<li> UVA 122 38 (31%)</li>
<li> STANFORD 112 17 (15%) </li>
<li> UC BERKELEY 96 17 (18%)</li>
<li> GEORGE WASHINGTON 94 40 (43%)</li>
<li>YALE 90 16 (18%)</li>
<li>U of CHICAGO 81 22 (27%)</li>
<li>DUKE 79 23 (29%)</li>
<li>U of MICHIGAN 79 29 (37%)</li>
<li>BOSTON UNIVERSITY 65 30 (46%)</li>
<li>BOSTON COLLEGE 62 26 (42%)</li>
<li>FORDHAM 52 20 (38%)</li>
<li>NORTHWESTERN 50 19 (38%)</li>
<li>UCLA 50 14 (28%)</li>
<li>WILLIAM & MARY 39 18 (46%)</li>
<li>AMERICAN 33 22 (67%)</li>
<li>VANDERBILT 31 12 (39%)</li>
<li>TEMPLE 23 15 (65%)</li>
<li>TULANE 8 6 (75%)</li>
</ol>

Also, I wonder how many overlaps there were. According to this data, there were 2016 applications and 637 acceptances (32%).

Student615 · April 18, 2007, 4:18pm

Grad school placement might not affect chances, but it could affect campus climate. If a school is sending a huge percentage of students to law school, then odds are good that they'll have strong pre-law advisors, active common-interest groups, etc., which may or may not be of interest.

Greybeard · April 18, 2007, 5:44pm

Hawkette,

There's substantial overlap. People aiming for the top tier of law schools typically apply to a significant number of them.

Here are the stats for Georgetown undergraduates:

<a href="http://www3.georgetown.edu/career_center/prelaw/applying/29900.html%5B/url%5D">http://www3.georgetown.edu/career_center/prelaw/applying/29900.html</a>

Law School

Number of Georgetown Applicants
Number of Georgetown Applicants Admitted
% of Georgetown Applicants Admitted
2006 Mean LSAT/GPA of Admitted Georgetown Applicants
2005 Mean LSAT/GPA of Admitted Georgetown Applicants

American
136
48
35%
162/3.42
162/3.49

Boston College
105
29
28%
164/3.60
164/3.66

Boston U.
76
27
36%
166/3.69
166/3.65

Brooklyn
45
25
56%
160/3.33
162/3.43

Cardozo
31
8
26%
160/3.35
165/3.53

Catholic
61
37
61%
158/3.28
160/3.33

Columbia
148
29
20%
172/3.68
171/3.74

Cornell
63
13
21%
163/3.62
166/3.64

Duke
74
8
11%
168/3.72
168/3.73

Emory
45
17
38%
163/3.57
165/3.50

Fordham
133
45
34%
164/3.55
165/3.55

George Mason
71
14
20%
165/3.28
165/3.53

George Wash. U.
190
48
25%
165/3.64
166/3.61

Georgetown
344
78
23%
167/3.58
167/3.64

Harvard
110
12
11%
173/3.81
172/3.82

Hofstra University
19
14
74%
158/3.35
161/3.40

Howard U.
16
8
50%
155/3.34
N/A

Loyola-LA
25
8
32%
161/3.53
162/3.36

Loyola-Chicago
25
6
24%
163/3.38
160/3.42

NYLS
30
24
80%
158/3.37
156/3.31

NYU
140
32
23%
172/3.73
170/3.75

Northeastern
19
9
47%
162/3.32
162/3.38

Northwestern
91
27
30%
168/3.56
168/3.63

Pepperdine
20
7
35%
161/3.39
159/3.62

Rutgers-Newark
23
14
61%
160/3.48
161/3.33

St. John's
29
15
52%
161/3.48
159/3.31

Santa Clara
19
14
74%
160/3.45
161/3.51

Seton Hall
20
16
80%
158/3.32
157/3.30

Stanford
74
5
7%
170/3.79
172/3.90

Suffolk
21
13
62%
157/3.32
155/3.49

Temple
40
24
60%
162/3.40
164/3.43

Tulane
23
12
52%
161/3.44
162/3.47

UC-Berkeley
101
9
9%
167/3.82
169/3.74

UC-Davis
16
7
44%
165/3.54
163/3.65

UC-Hastings
42
14
33%
164/3.53
165/3.57

UCLA
80
15
19%
169/3.60
169/3.72

U. Chicago
76
11
14%
172/3.71
170/3.72

U. Colorado
16
4
25%
N/A
162/3.55

U. Florida
19
13
68%
160/3.58
158/3.35

U. Illinois
23
6
26%
167/3.69
N/A

U. Maryland
40
8
20%
162/3.55
163/3.40

U. Miami
48
30
63%
160/3.43
159/3.37

U. Michigan
88
21
24%
168/3.63
168/3.70

U. Minnesota
18
9
50%
164/3.53
166/3.62

U. North Carolina
29
10
34%
165/3.65
N/A

U. Notre Dame
47
10
21%
165/3.55
166/3.64

U. Pennsylvania
100
16
16%
171/3.64
169/3.63

U. Pittsburgh
17
9
53%
161/3.47
158/3.41

U. San Diego
20
12
60%
163/3.36
163/3.47

U. San Francisco
16
8
50%
161/3.36
158/3.43

USC
69
14
20%
167/3.61
166/3.58

U. Texas
55
12
22%
166/3.59
168/3.59

UVA
101
22
22%
169/3.61
170/3.62

U. Wisconsin
17
8
47%
162/3.68
164/3.53

Vanderbilt
51
14
27%
165/3.70
167/3.69

Villanova
37
21
57%
161/3.44
162/3.44

Wake Forest U.
17
5
29%
163/3.65
N/A

Washington & Lee
35
10
29%
165/3.59
165/3.62

Wash. U. St. Louis
44
16
36%
166/3.55
167/3.65

William & Mary
57
18
32%
167/3.63
164/3.65

Yale
49
1
2%
N/A
N/A

<a href="http://www3.georgetown.edu/career_center/prelaw/applying/29900.html%5B/url%5D">http://www3.georgetown.edu/career_center/prelaw/applying/29900.html</a>

trizkutt · April 18, 2007, 5:46pm

a 2% acceptance rate @ yale...wow.

Greybeard · April 18, 2007, 6:06pm

That 2% at Yale is a bit of a shocker. One acceptance out of 49 applications. Overall, Yale Law School accepted 6.8% of its applicants on average the last three years.

The Georgetown graduates did considerably better at Stanford (7%) and Harvard (11%), probably the second and third most selective schools in the country.

lskinner · April 18, 2007, 8:18pm

[quote]
You can go to HYP for free if your parents income is less than 60K and pay 40K in Berkeley or Michigan as outstate student.

[/quote]

So what? In state tuition is a lot lower. And most middle class kids ain't getting a free ride a Harvard. Check out the financial aid board.

hawkette · April 19, 2007, 7:52am

Does anybody know what the required in-state percentages are for the more prominent public university Law Schools, eg, UC Berkeley, U Michigan, U Virginia, UCLA, U Texas, U Minnesota, U Wisconsin, U Iowa, I Illinois, U Washington, W&M, U Georgia, U Florida, etc? Please post if you know about any of these.

tyr · April 19, 2007, 10:08am

I am not aware of any "required" in-state percentages for the following schools, but the following is the percentage of in-state students (based on information on the schools' respective sites):

Michigan - 24%
Virginia - 40%
UCLA - 72%
Georgia - 83%
Florida - 85%

Texas has a maximum non-resident enrollment of 35%.

hubbellgardner · April 19, 2007, 10:41am

From Thomas Sowell's book "Choosing the right College":

"When little-known Davidson College is ranked among the top dozen in the country by law school deans for the quality of its students who go on to law school, the deans probably know what they are talking about-and this is valuable information about the college, even if you have no intention of going to law school. Similarly, it is probably a well-informed judgment when the deans of graduate schools of engineering include Rose-Hulman Institute and Harvey Mudd College among the top 15 institutions in the quality of their engineering graduates. Their assessment may be particularly valuable if you have never heard of either of these schools before."

tyr · April 19, 2007, 10:53am

^Your point?

hubbellgardner · April 19, 2007, 11:04am

the point being that if you want to go to law school there are many factors to be considered other than 'schools represented at top law schools' as that is more a function of total number of undergraduate students than anything else.

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Undergraduate schools-Which are most commonly found at top Law Schools?

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Undergraduate schools-Which are most commonly found at top Law Schools?

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