Got into the reach school but choose the safety...if that's your kid I have a question for you!

Parents Forum
41

My oldest daughter was lured to her safety because of generous merit awards, but ended up transferring to her reach. While the honors program was okay, the school overall had a party atmosphere* which bled into everything. When she’d visit friends at more selective schools she was far happier – the caliber and sophistication of peers was night and day. She was eager to transfer out almost immediately. She learned there’s no such thing as free lunch.

EDIT: *To add, my daughter loathed being associated with the party-slacker-fraternity “brand” of the lower caliber college. No matter how terrific an honors program is, the overall rep of the university is the perfume you’ll wear for 50 years.

42

Again, it really depends on the kid. Some kids are more highly motivated in a rigorous and competitive environment; some are overwhelmed. Some kids thrive in deep waters, some kids really do better being the big fish in a small pond.

43

Reach? Rank? Fit? Safety? None of that jargon was in my kids’ vocabulary as they were applying to colleges. They weren’t looking at colleges’ reputations. But they had goals.

My son’s #1 Goal: “To attend a college where it’s okay to be a thinker, preferably in a major league city.” (Result: He attended the University of Chicago. Also accepted at Carleton, Williams, Reed, UMich, MSU.)

My daughter’s #1 Goal: “To attend a stand-alone art school, preferably in a real city in the east.” (Result: She attended Rhode Island School of Design – RISD. Also accepted at Carnegie Mellon University (CMU), Maryland Institute College of Art (MICA), Kansas City Art Institute, Savannah College of Art and Design.)

I took their goals, my knowledge of the kids’ talents and achievements (including grades, test scores, commendations and awards) plus my sense of the lay of the land of the national college scene and I put together lists. I was looking for “fit.” For me fit wasn’t primarily social; it was intellectual. I was looking for good academic environments, for top-notch undergraduate programs.

We wanted each to attend a college where they were comfortable socially, challenged intellectually, and engaged enough in the academic programs that they would learn a lot of things that they didn’t already know.

Neither kid wanted to spend a moment reading college guidebooks, Princeton Review, US News, and other rankings. But I looked at those sources as well as information on the web. As a college teacher I had a sense of the qualities of different institutions. Between us my wife and I had 5 college degrees. We knew how college worked.

They did what they needed to do for their applications. For my son, describe but also show what he could do in college based on what he was already doing in high school (EC’s: debate, journalism, and getting awards in these areas as well as in math competitions) while taking a challenging curriculum with lots of AP’s, and getting high test scores – NM Semifinalist). For my daughter, develop her skills as an artist, put together a winning portfolio, and communicate what it meant for her to make art.

My son did not want to visit any colleges and had no a priori 1st choice (he’d seen quite a few colleges but not through the lens of a prospective student). He first visited the University of Chicago on “accepted students’ day.” My daughter learned about different schools, and got a sense of what attending an art school might be like, by participating in the summer pre-college art program at the Art Institute of Chicago. After making a 10-day tour of 11 colleges in June after her junior year, she made RISD her #1 choice.

44

Depends entirely on the kid. D1 got into a reach school (Ivy) and chose it over a safety (small women’s LAC) she had fallen in love with, where she had gotten a great merit package, and I really wondered about the big fish/small fish issue. She was fortunate that cost was not an issue. She wasn’t premed, but may go to grad school. She really thrived there — was exposed to people who thought differently from her (this would not have been the case at her safety), did very well academically, and really enjoyed her classmates. And she found opportunities for summer by not chasing the same things as everyone else in the class. It was absolutely the right decision for her. However, it could easily be the wrong decision for someone who was constantly comparing herself to other students and feeling inadequate. If she had been premed, the safety might also have been more of a consideration. A cousin had a very different experience at an Ivy (partly his own fault bc he didn’t work hard) and had confidence badly shaken.

45

I think it depends… at least in part… on what the safety school is and what the student is looking for. One of my daughter’s safety schools was full tuition to a highly regarded honors college. She interviewed for room and board and came out saying that the students interviewing with her were brilliant and extremely accomplished ( some were already published etc). She ultimately chose a different school but I know that this is one safety that would have given her the peer group and academic opportunities that she wanted.

We still don’t know the schools that the OP is talking about.

46

Most times its finance related, I speak from experience. Even the in-state flagship COA was more than several of D’s acceptance schools.

47

Many times it is financial… I agree. I also think that despite finances… one can find a fit safety school if they craft the right list. This is really the most impt school to find.

48

It really comes down to “right fit” relative to cost. Financial aid packages vary widely from school to school and parents often find that the “dream school” is not as generous with financial aid as they like to boast. Personally, I think a scholarship should be a no-brainer. It’s really a win-win for everyone. Also, sometimes location plays a huge factor. Notre Dame might offer a good business program, but SMU is right in the middle of Dallas where internships and job opportunities are more readily available.

49

Some of the state school’s honors programs are pretty strong. But, I think the tradeoffs depend in part on the field you go into.

For some fields like medicine and dentistry (maybe law, but not so sure about this), getting top grades at a safety school may well be better than getting decent grades at the reach school. That said, if you are going to have a 3.95 GPA in either case, getting it from the reach will usually be better. A 3.95 from Princeton will probably beat 3.95 from UMich or UGA Honors Colleges, but the 3.95 will probably be harder to get at Princeton. In STEM, it generally doesn’t matter where you go (in terms of expected income) except if you want to be a tech entrepreneur or a professor. For prospective entrepreneurs, Stanford is unsurpassed (the ecosystem of students, connections, VCs, incubators integrated with the university is extraordinary.) Other Bay Area schools also probably strong plus MIT, CMU and a few others, but Stanford is probably in a class by itself. If you want to go into management consulting (McKinsey, Bain, BCG), investment banking or private equity, the prestige of the school will give you an edge.

My daughter became a nurse practitioner – prestige of school doesn’t really help in getting jobs. She went to a school that was less selective than others and was always at the top of her class. It was actually very good for her self-confidence. My son, who never lacked intellectual self-confidence, went to one of the more prestigious schools he got into, and for him, having great grades and great recs from a prestigious school has helped when he was applying to grad school and in other ways (he raised venture capital to start a company during his senior year in college).

Going to the top Ivies offers the opportunity to have extraordinary connections. From undergraduate days, I know university presidents, senior private equity folks, famous scientists, a Fortune 100 CEO, some well-known architects, a Supreme Court justice, investment bankers, a couple of very senior government officials, etc. plus doctors, lawyers and management consultants out the wazoo. You are unlikely to meet the same folks, even at a top honors college. But, not everyone actually networks or takes advantage of those connections down the road. I’ve also been somewhat surprised that many years after college and grad school, people thinking of hiring my firm still notice the three prestigious schools I went to.

Malcolm Gladwell is interesting but my obseration is that in his more recent books, he starts with ideological conclusions and then finds social sciences studies to support his preconceived beliefs. In earlier books, I think he actually started from the social science studies to reach his conclusions. So, I pay less attention to the conclusions he draws, but he does still tell interesting stories.

50

^^^^ makes great observations. Chosen field has a lot to do with it. The example of Stanford being a tech entrepreneur incubator is spot on. It’s simply better. Doesn’t mean others are bad, but Stanford is better at that, end of story. In the world of finance and consulting, major advantage of attending a list of about 30 schools. Outside of those schools, your only shot is to network your butt off (which most won’t do - or even know how to do at their age). The ecosystem certainly matters. It’s not just the quality of professors / teaching or strength of student pool, but rather a combination of that and the expectation (not entitlement but goal driven focus) of entering the market paired with powerful alumni.

In essence you have really smart kids who want to do well who are taught by really good profs from a school with really successful alumni who want to help those really smart kids. It’s a success loop. You can break in to the loop if you’re super motivated. That same level of motivation gives you a great launching pad from within the loop. Just about activating it. That’s a BIG difference.

51

@STF4717

Back in the day, I chose Rutgers over a top 10 LAC because of cost. After two weeks on campus, I had no regrets. The Honors Program was modeled after U Chicago’s core and top professors vied to teach in it. I found other intellectually curious and driven kids. I found faculty mentors and like-minded friends. I was accepted to top graduate programs with fellowship support.

Data point of 1. As others have mentioned, it really depends on your kid. I doubt your child got into reach school on luck alone. Reach schools admit people that they think can do well. What is more important is whether your kid thinks he can thrive and be happy in that environment. For some “imposter syndrome” fades quickly, for others it can become internalized. How resilient is your kid? What does your child envision after college? If med school or vet school is an option, saving money at the undergraduate level becomes more imperative.

I would give your child space to think this over. With time to reflect, the choice may become clearer. It sounds like there are two viable options on the table. Good for them!

52

I am so happy to see this thread. As the parent, I’m the one wondering about prestige, reaches, and if my son should be aiming higher. Truth is, S19 could care less about prestige and reaches. He is all about fit and what reduces anxiety for him. Offering his desired major (English/writing, it’s everywhere), distance from home, school size, and the ability to participate in music without being a music major are his primary concerns. And I’ve followed his lead.

He is also fully aware of our finances and what we can offer him. And wants to work within the financial parameters to not take on debt. The CTCL type of schools (bring on the merit!) are at the top of his list and he would be totally happy attending financial safeties such as West Chester or Millersville if it means no debt. Can’t really argue with that.

@MaineLonghorn Really appreciate your feedback on Susquehanna. I took S19 to Creative Writing Day back in the fall and during the final presentation, he whispered to me “oh, I could go here.” Heck, I’m a professional copywriter and I wanted to go there. The creative writing profs and students were so passionate about the craft.

I keep reminding myself that while he has the stats to “aim higher,” he is being extremely clear about what feels right for him. I need to encourage and support him in making decisions that are right for him. A super happy kid at Goucher or Ursinus is better than a miserable, anxiety-ridden kid at Villanova or George Washington.

53

After reading some of the recent responses (especially #49), I realize that satisfaction with choosing the safety may be higher for those that intend to go to graduate school. The lack of debt, higher potential to be among the top of the class, and possibly higher GPA would all be big benefits to choosing the safety if grad school is the next goal.

An advanced degree will make my DD’s career goals more attainable. An advanced degree from one of the top programs will be even better. She knows that alumni of her current school have had students get accepted to some of the top grad programs, so it wasn’t like she was killing her dream by going to the safety. However, if she’d gone to her first choice reach school, she would have graduated with serious debt and likely would have had to work for quite some time before being able to finance grad school. That made the decision easier for sure.

54

@mamaedefamilia I’m glad to hear about your experience at Rutgers. My son is trying to make this decision now. He was accepted into Rutgers Mechanical/Aerospace Engineering (along with USF, FSU, and UDel). He was accepted as exploratory at UMD and we are waiting to hear from UF. We loved UMD, but it’s off the table because of cost. We haven’t heard from UDel regarding possible scholarships, but that will likely be off the table as well. He’s not sure he wants to go so far out of state, so Florida schools might be out too.

It’s beginning to look like Rutgers might be the best choice for him. It’s at his level (not a safety, not a reach) and he was admitted right into his chosen field, so he doesn’t have to worry about competing after exploratory and we can afford it.

55

There’s nothing wrong with an elite school, but it’s not the panacea that smart high school kids think that they’re going to get. What they’re getting is a bachelor’s degree, no more, no less. I’m seeing too many kids fantasizing about their “dream school” so much that they don’t understand what dreams really are. A dream is something that can be converted into a tangible accomplishment later. College is merely a tool to do that. It’s not a dream. Instead of going through the motions to get top grades, they need to reach inside of themselves and try to find a passion they can really dream about. At that point, the school really won’t matter much.

56

I agree with this from trackmbe3. We are encouraging our children to all go to a more reasonably priced University for their Undergrad degrees, save the tuition money and crazy cost of living expenses that come with the more “elite” schools, and then decide if they still have a desire for one of those schools for their Masters, etc.

The school they are all looking at isn’t elite, but they aren’t the Community College either. There are very good institutions of higher education that have very rigorous academics, that also don’t come with the exorbitant price tag of the Harvard’s and Yale’s of the country.

57

I think it depends on what schools you are talking about. A safety for one person may be a reach for another. Sometimes in these discussions we are talking about 2 excellent schools. Up thread someone mentioned NC vs Yale — um, NC is an excellent school- it’s not like directional state vs Yale. One of my kids chose UIUC engineering over several excellent schools - for example- ND. Life has turned out great for him. So, OP I think it really depends on which 2 schools you are talking about.

I don’t necessarily agree that it doesn’t matter where you go to undergrad. I just think a lot of the time we are splitting hairs over which excellent school is better.

58

@My3Kiddos I agree, but I would add that for students intending to get a PhD as a terminal degree, the rest of their education will be free, albeit a long process. As our daughter’s alumni mentor says, “If you pay for anything beyond your undergraduate degree, you’ve done life wrong”.

59

As our daughter’s alumni mentor says, “If you pay for anything beyond your undergraduate degree, you’ve done life wrong”…
Really, how do get MD, JD, MBAs etc for free?

60

@jzducol Specific focus is Pharma, an industry that requires a PHD (university funded with stipend) for research or an MBA (company funded) on a management track.

MD or JD, that’s another game to play. I’d much rather get a diagnosis or a procedure done from a physician with a deep background in problem solving as opposed to an undergraduate degree aimed at the highest GPA.