I realize that this may be different for individual schools, but worth asking. This popped up as a side topic on another thread and thought it deserves a thread on its own.
The question is: For conservatories that are attached to universities, do the GPA / SAT ‘requirement’ for admission to the university in general apply for music majors.
Specifically, my D is planning on applying to Rice (Shepherd), Johns Hopkins (Peabody), USC (Thorton), BU, UMich. She’s also applying to stand-alone conservatories where this would be a largely moot issue.
ClarinetDad had pointed out that Rice’s student profile is : “Bottom 25% have a 33 ACT or 1440 SAT M/CR” I looked up the average and its 1550 (SAT) and 4.08 (GPA). My D is not anywhere near that. I think she has 1380 and 3.9 or something close to that. (I know, I should know it by heart. But, she being interested in music, I have certainly taken my eyes off them.
So, will Rice and others Univ. on her list require the same GPA/SAT profile for students applying to the conservatory attached to them?
I have this question, too, so I’m glad you asked. I also wonder to what extent, if any, a stellar GPA/ SAT profile can help a student with borderline conservatory-level musical talent?
A stellar GPA/SAT with borderline talent may not get you an admit.
Stellar talent with borderline grades can get you an admit.
Talent is king.
This assumes you hit the basic academic requirements for the music school.
Now you can enter the hazy world of “I heard”, “I knew a kid that” and “a certain school does” AND yes it is probably all true. But the above is a general rule to keep in mind. Typically the audition matters most. If the talent part is not there, the school may never get around to considering the grades bc you didn’t pass the audition. Again in a borderline situation it could possibly help but my guess is they will be considering things like voice type, growth potential etc more than grades.
To understand the academic requirements for MUSIC schools/conservatories within universities, CALL the music dept and ask. They will give you the needed stats. Some other parents know this process better…but my understanding is the stats are often time LESS than the general academic stats needed for the school.
We visited Peabody and Oberlin Conservatory last year. They both said test scores and GPA are not as critical to admission as talent is. However, in speaking with a professor at Jacobs School of music at IU, they ideally are looking for both. I guess it depends on the school.
The grades and scores will make a difference for academic merit money from USC and Michigan, which stacks with music merit. Generally the universities are more forgiving with the grades/scores for admission if the audition is great. But they do require a certain base level which assures them the student will not struggle in the general ed classes. Your daughter should be fine for admission - but may miss out on some academic merit money, which can be very helpful for the bottom line at universities like USC, BU and Michigan.
Peabody functions like an independent conservatory with its own admissions process. The only reason to focus on JHU’s standards is if you are looking at a double degree program with JHU. This page may be helpful: http://www.peabody.jhu.edu/conservatory/admissions/faq.html
Michigan publishes their minimum standards, too, and they are much lower than you might expect http://www.music.umich.edu/prospective_students/admissions/ug/app_proc/acad_prep.htm
It sounds like UM Admissions evaluates the file to be sure the student can handle the academics at UM and if so, then the SMTD makes the decisions from that point to whom they will offer auditions and admission.
Those are the two from your list that I know anything about. It certainly sounds like your daughter’s stats will pass muster at most, if not all schools.
@SpiritManager, thanks for the info wrt merit $$. Her grades and test scores are what they are at this point. I just wanted to avoid going through the application process when she has no chance. I guess it’s really about Rice since she is close to average or above for the others on the list. @UniformMom, thanks for mentioning IU (Jacobs). I forgot momentarily that my D is planning to apply there.
Did little Googling and found that Johns Hopkins and Peabody separately publish the average test scores and GPA stats. They are quite different. I believe out of the ones on her list, JH/Peabody is the pair that is known to be the least integrated. They are actually physically separated.
Johns Hopkins: 1470 / 3.74
Peabody: 1290 / 3.66
Also, from admission page of BU indicates that SAT/ACT score are not needed to apply to College of Fine Arts.
As a general rule, bridgenail is correct in my experience, an academic superstar who is not that great in terms of playing likely will not get in. I have heard supposedly that some schools, if the kid is on the borderline for admit to the music school after their audition, that strong grades and scores will give them an edge, but there is one thing that makes me dubious about that. At many or most schools, you can pass the audition and still not get admitted, because a teacher didn’t want to teach you, and if the kid is mediocre enough musically to be on the edge, it is prob a lot more likely a teacher wouldn’t stand up for them so the grades would be meaningless (and remember, just my thoughts).
It is why if you are heading for a music performance degree, the first priority has to be the level of playing, pure and simple, you can’t count on academics bailing you out (at a conservatory, even more so), it is very unlikely IMO it will. That said, having a strong GPA and test scores isn’t going to hurt you, and with academic merit aid it might very much help you for schools within universities. What I usually recommend is to keep the course load such that you can show strong academics (in case of merit aid) but where you minimize the impact on the playing, if skipping the AP class circus allows you more time to practice, that is better IMO.
Thanks @musicprnt. My D, with my support has made some conscious choice in terms of scaling back academic rigor in order for her to concentrate on music. It has included taking honors instead of AP, not spending time on SAT prep, choosing to prepare for music competition instead of studying for upcoming finals, etc. She’s done quite well at school still. I am amazed at a couple of her peers in her youth orchestra who are valedictorian’ish and also incredible musicians. I’ve found that these types generally choose an Ivy unless they can get into Harvard-NEC joint program.
EstherDad,
I do not know your child or you, but I commend you for supporting your child in choosing practice over SAT prep. I can assure you that in the long run the time she spent with her music will be better for her brain and her mental health.
One thing you can do if you feel your daughter’s scores are low for the programs she is applying to is have somebody who knows her write a letter explaining how she made a decision to focus on music instead of doing SAT prep programs which might have raised her score.
Sometimes children, like my son, have a learning disability which causes a mis-match between their scores on these types of tests and their abilities. In my son’s case having a letter in his file explaining this was helpful for some schools (although not all). If a school did not take the letter into account than chances are the school was not going to be a good placement for our son.
I was just going to also write to say I think you have a great attitude. Honestly, good for you for not having your eye on stats!! Your daughter is a lucky musician.
StacJip’s suggestion to have a letter in the file, either written by the guidance counselor or by you at the guidance counselor’s request (since most don’t know much about music studies), is a good one. We actually did that too for both a musician and a dancer in the family. In each case, course selections and missed school needed an explanation, which also provided an opportunity to describe music involvement.
My S graduated this past spring and just started his freshman year at a conservatory. I had the same question last year and the advice I received to simply call each of the music admissions office was spot on. It took very little time and everyone I talked to was very forthcoming with the information.
My S was only interested in conservatories and universities with a separate music school (e.g. Michigan, Northwestern, Rochester, Miami.) For the latter group, I think they all required admission by both the university and the music school. He had good grades (3.8) but not stellar test scores (ACT 26). His school does not offer AP classes. Literally every single admissions officer I spoke to said that these stats would not be the reason why he would not be accepted IF the music school wished to extend him an acceptance. Note the careful wording. Yes, it means that the audition is key, but it also means that the music school has the prerogative to consider grades/scores if they wish to.
In the end, Michigan and USC were the only academically strong schools he decided to apply to. He was accepted to both with these stats. His essays were not memorable. He had strong music recommendations and a good music resume.
Honestly, it’s not worth worrying – just call the music school admissions and ask if they have academic requirements and what it is.
@musicprnt from post #8, I hope this is not too much of a thread derailment, but this comment is something that I have been intrigued by for quite a while, and it has just now crystallized “and if the kid is mediocre enough musically to be on the edge”. In my early days of CC reading, I had this impression (call it Type A) that for however many spots (N) there might be for an instrument at a college for a particular year, there might be N+K truly qualified applicant, or whom K would be turned away. I still imagine this is true at, say, Curtis. As I went on a few visits to various places, I got more of the impression that there could be a wide range of talents who were admitted to a music program, where some admits are just clearly “doing better” than some other admits, which seems to match the comment I quoted above (call this Type B). I would guess that a Type B program would very rarely turn away a reasonably substantial talent.Are there many Type A programs out there, where a truly nicely-developed talent will definitely be blocked out of admission by enough admits also of high talent, such that the audition panel will truly feel sad to turn away so many good applicants.
I got an e-mail reply back from Shepherd admissions.
“Thank you for checking with me. Thankfully, the same standards do not apply because the music students put so much energy, time and devotion into their music. The Audition has the biggest emphasis and then Rice Admissions is looking for a predictor of success. … She is taking 2 subject tests, right? No subject test scores are definitely a deal breaker for Rice University.”
@GoForth I have a son who graduated this past spring from a top conservatory. The sort of place that you expect accepts only the top applicants for their program. Every January after his freshman year he played on auditions. He had the opportunity to listen as the faculty discussed the various applicants. What I have taken away from listening to our son talk about this process is that judging potential talent in musicians is not a black and white process and can involve everything from personality, recommendations, attitude, poise, dedication and academic ability. The same can be said about academic applicants as well. If colleges just used grades and scores for admission then the honest thing for them to do would be to place all qualified students into a bucket and randomly draw the class from that group. But they do not do that. Schools look at the whole package and pretend they can figure out how to look at resumes and predict who that person will become.
When my son was first admitted to conservatories I remember talking to the guy who would be our son’s private teacher if he attended MSM. When I asked him about our son’s potential and my concern with our son choosing this path, he told me how in his years of teaching he has seen kids admitted who are “AMAZING…better than any student he has ever had.” But then those students burn out or flat-line or fail to improve or develop. Then he said he has accepted students who he feels are somewhat average on a hunch and watched as they have blossomed and grown into the most amazing musicians and talent.
What does this mean for parents about to embark on this process? Relax. Let your student work hard and practice and study and enjoy life. Have faith your student will do well where ever they go and be proud of them and all they are accomplishing.
To clarify as to Oberlin - one can apply to the conservatory only without applying to the College. You will still take courses in the college to satisfy the liberal arts requirements. Grade requirements and test scores matter but not to the degree than if you had applied to the dual degree program which does require meeting the entrance requirements of the college. but for either option whether conservatory or dual degree, a not up to the required standard audition will not be saved by grades. But if you applied for dual degree and had an inadequate audition, you could still be accepted into the college but not the conservatory. Separate admissions office are maintained.
@compdad I hope I’m not hijacking the thread. Please forgive me if I am, but I have 2 related questions.
Do you know anything about the fluctuations in conservatory admissions, especially at Oberlin? For example: is it true that the violin studios are fuller in some years than in others making it more (less) difficult to get in?
Given the weight of the audition and the performance level in the whole conservatory admissions equation, how does applying as a double-degree candidate function? Does it send the ‘wrong message,’ i.e. suggest a lack of ‘musical focus’? In case of a rough tie between candidates, would the conservatory choose the one who won’t be “distracted” by the double-degree?
"2) Given the weight of the audition and the performance level in the whole conservatory admissions equation, how does applying as a double-degree candidate function? Does it send the ‘wrong message,’ i.e. suggest a lack of ‘musical focus’? In case of a rough tie between candidates, would the conservatory choose the one who won’t be “distracted” by the double-degree? "
I consider CMU’s School of Music as a conservatory within an academic university. My D applied and in fact indicated to the prof that she would be doing a double-major during the audition. She was told it’s fine and was admitted based on her audition plus academic scholarships. So she is now a freshman doing flute performance and humanities as a double-major.