<p>I'm curious whether others who are Vandy students or are Vandy parents feel that Vandy practices grade deflation. My sophomore D is feeling frustrated that she is getting what she feels are mediocre grades despite hard work, while her friends at some other schools--particularly state schools--are making straight As. Many of her friends who started at Vandy in science, economics, or engineering majors have given up and chosen majors that they think will get them better grades. How does grade deflation at Vandy affect the students' ability to get into grad schools or to find jobs?</p>
<p>Grade deflation happens at Vandy, but it also depends on your major. I know that the math department has a required class average that cannot exceed 3.2 and most teachers go below that to be safe. It’s dumb and extremely frustrating and it also increases competition among classmates to cut-throat status, but you get used to it or you get out. I look at it like a firing process and feel that each semester you become stronger by going through it if you can stick it out. </p>
<p>It’s also clear that grade deflation goes on by looking at who is graduating with honors at graduation. I was at the most recent graduation and almost everybody in Peabody was graduating with honors while three or four math and cs majors were graduating with honors. But even though grade deflation happens, all my friends in engineering (mostly cs and math majors) are not having any difficulty finding decent paying jobs (+75k) and often have multiple job offers. I even have a friend who was offered a 140k package to start which is freaking insane! But some people I know who switched out of engineering because it was too hard regret it to this day because their new major isn’t as marketable. If your daughter likes the difficult major at all I’d encourage her to stick it out and just work harder, focus, and constantly look for ways to improve.</p>
<p>There absolutely is grade deflation, but I disagree that it creates a cut-throat environment. I have always felt camaraderie amongst my classmates, particularly when a course is kicking our butts.</p>
<p>It’s most felt in the School of Engineering. People majoring in Maths or Sciences feel it more as well. Mostly nonexistent in Peabody. Such is life as a Commodore. </p>
<p>As a student, there’s nothing I can say about it affecting job/grad school prospects but I can certainly say it is affecting my potential to earn a fellowship or research based internship as GPA is paramount.</p>
<p>As a general rule students from elite national and top LAC work their butt off and those from public flagship party their butts off. I would love to hear from grad school AdCom’s on this issue. I suspect a 3.0 at elite universities should be worth a 4.0 at most flagships.<br>
Should a pre med go to an elite school and risk being “weeded out” or to his flagship and graduate with a 4.0 with half his brain tied behind his back?<br>
Bell curves were designed for the general population not for the Vandy “subset” of students who are in the top 1% of test takers in the world. Logic suggests most of these students should earn an A in their classes.<br>
Agree with pancaked post.</p>
<p>My S is a senior this year and I would say that grade deflation is a reality at Vandy. He would probably say that it has gotten even worse the past few years with the university becoming even more competitive for admissions and the test scores of those applicants going through the roof. Of course, that is just his opinion. </p>
<p>He is also a very academic kid who handles stress very well, so he just deals with it. He has had a great experience but he would certainly say that maintaining his grades and having an active social life has been a formula for MANY all-nighters and days without sleep! Crazy and not something I enjoyed hearing about the last 3 1/2 years!</p>
<p>I would agree that his Engineer and Math/Science major friends complain about it the most. The only negative I heard this fall (I was there for family weekend when many of the Seniors were starting the job interview process) was that some employers required a certain GPA to even consider a kid for an interview. Many of his friends were frustrated that at Vandy that GPA was very difficult to obtain but had they gone to a state school it would have been much easier and their quality of life would have been much different.</p>
<p>Having said all that, I do believe the kids I know have loved their time at Vandy and accept the difficulty of the academics and the hard work that it requires. Although, I don’t think it is for everyone as it can be quite the pressure cooker.</p>
<p>My sophomore daughter is very worried that she’ll have difficulty getting into grad school or finding a job if she decides not to go to grad school. Is it kosher to leave the GPA off the resume?</p>
<p>^^ I know for internships you usually have to include your GPA somewhere on the application, so they’re going to find out eventually if you don’t include it on the resume. If not, then how would they compare you with other applicants? But I would use that worried feeling as motivation to do better. I had a bad semester and told myself I wouldn’t let it happen again and I stopped going out as much and studied harder than I thought was possible, and guess what, I did a lot better the next semester. </p>
<p>Everybody at Vandy is smart and capable of doing very well if they put in the right amount of effort in my opinion. Just look at the average stats of a Vandy incoming freshman, so everybody’s smart its just some are more disciplined and willing to put in a little more work than others. That’s why international students usually kick US students asses in the classroom and its because they have their priorities straight. </p>
<p>As to getting into grad schools, I know that most grad schools look at how your grades have evolved over time and take that into consideration. For example, if you started out pulling straight C’s your first semester and you get better and better until by the end of your second year your pulling straight A’s they respect that. So I wouldn’t worry as long as things start to turn around and they see the progress she’s made.</p>
<p>You can definitely leave GPA off your resume-- in fact, Vandy’s career center recommends leaving off any GPA under 3.0 . Grad schools will definitely be asking for transcripts though, as will fellowships. I found internships during college career to not really care though.</p>
<p>It is possible to get good grades (my D graduated with a 3.82), but it really takes a lot of work - and it seems that it is harder to get good grades in engineering or the sciences than it might be at other schools - at least my D thinks so, based on what she saw (graduated in 2011). The education is excellent, though. </p>
<p>A young woman we know graduated this year with a degree one might think would get her nowhere without a grad degree. Her grades weren’t so hot - she started out in biochem but switched to an English-type major because of them. She got a good job with a major corporation, just the same. I imagine that if she decides to go to grad school in a couple years, she will be fine.</p>
<p>Grades tend to be pretty inflated in most of the classes I’ve taken at Vandy (but this seems consistent with the historical trend - see [A</a> History of College Grade Inflation - NYTimes.com](<a href=“http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/07/14/the-history-of-college-grade-inflation/]A”>A History of College Grade Inflation - The New York Times)). Averages in my classes are usually a B/B+ by design, with medians an A- or so (instead of, say, a C), and I’ve had a good few classes with A-/A averages (and some, I’m pretty sure, where nobody got less than an A; eg. studio art). I’m not much fond of it, personally – when half the class gets an A your A is strongly devalued, and the low ceiling makes it harder to distinguish yourself. I tell myself grades don’t matter to get over it – and indeed, after your first post-college job or two (or after grad school) nobody seems to care.</p>
<p>Grad schools, afaik, care much more about experience, research productivity, and initiative than grades.</p>
<p>Moodrets, I’m curious to know what you major is, because that has not be the exerpience of my D or her friends.</p>
<p>It was not the experience of my D, either. The class average in many of her classes was lower than what you cite, Moodrets.</p>
<p>I’m doing geology/biology (2nd semester senior now, so essentially done with both). Courses in both departments seem to run averages around B+/A-. Courses where everybody got As were things like “Pop culture in modern Japan” and “Drawing/Composition” (taken for international and humanities axle credits, respectively), seminars (writing or otherwise), and philosophy (another three classes there, all for axle). Some courses have had absurdly high averages as a fluke (eg, calc 3 had a high A average, but I think that’s because the prof was new – friends in the math department have told me it’s usually lower).</p>
<p>I don’t think I’ve had a class with lower than a B average (orgo and earth materials were around a B, maybe B- iirc, but for both it largely depends on which professor you get).</p>
<p>I just checked - 75th percentile GPA at Vandy for A&S for the last year was a 3.692 ([Honors</a> | College of Arts and Science | Vanderbilt University](<a href=“http://as.vanderbilt.edu/registrar/academicpolicies/honors/]Honors”>http://as.vanderbilt.edu/registrar/academicpolicies/honors/)), which is on the higher end according to a small smattering of cum laude cutoffs I just looked at (they seem to range from 3.5-3.7, though some schools do calculate it differently). Still, 25% of students having an A- or an A average seems high to me.</p>
<p>Moodret I can understand expecting a higher class average in geology courses, but biology too! That seems a little out there to me. I’ve heard a lot of horror stories about bio, especially the intro classes and genetics where people say their test averages were close to 50%. I know the teachers curve it at the end, but I can’t imagine them curving it to a B+ unless your extremely lucky. Then again it does depend on the teacher a little.</p>
<p>I’m in EEOB, though, so perhaps the molecular people have it a bit rougher. It’s been a few years since intro classes and genetics, but I remember people complaining about the former being a “weeder” class (though I’m fairly certain the curve was generous – somewhere in the Bs). Don’t remember what the genetics curve was, but the class itself was super easy (3 or 4 tests and a 3 or 4 20 minute HW assignments and that’s it! All the notes were available online too!).</p>
<p>hey guys, I’m going to be a freshman next fall (admitted ED), and I have some concerns about how a potentially deflated GPA will affect my grad school (med) chances. I’m planning to major in Political Science, minor in Biological Sciences, and stay on the pre med track to take the prerequisite courses for med school. I’m willing to work as hard as possible to keep my GPA high (big deal for med school) and score well on the MCAT, but I’m afraid that ending up with about a 3.5 GPA will keep me out from good med schools. Do grad schools realize that a Vandy GPA is not comparable to that of a state-flagship school? Do they take into account the fact that there is grade deflation? Would I have been better off just going to UCLA or UCB and getting a little higher GPA?</p>
<p>Four short years ago S2 was accepted to Vanderbilt EDII after being deferred by Duke EDI. I think Vanderbilt has been a perfect fit for him. Since my S is now a senior, I feel a bit qualified to address the grade deflation issue. Like most, I would say it depends. First, it depends on your school. Others have noted that the engineering school is the hardest school in which to earn an A, while Peabody students seem to have the easiest time getting A’s, in general. Second, it depends on your major: some majors in the college of Arts and Science are harder than others. I think all agree the math major is very tough. Third, it depends on when you get those pesky weeder classes out of the way, as well as when those fun electives kick in. One facet that I don’t think anyone has discussed is the difference in the grades between your freshman and sophomore years and your junior and senior years. Your first two years are taken up with weeder classes and classes to fulfill AXLE credits that you never would have taken on your own. For example, S really didn’t love his French classes his freshman year, and he didn’t do stellarly in them. The beginning calculus classes are no fun at Vandy–even if you are smart enough to eschew the dreaded 150 and go for 155 or higher. All of these take place your first two years. I would like to qualify that statement, though, by saying some of those AXLE credit classes have delighted him–like his writing classes (W classes)–and his common app essay was a humorous (yet serious) look at how much he detested writing! He would have NEVER taken a W class without its being a requirement. S’s lowest GPA was second semester freshman year, and that was probably because he was pledging and all that entails while taking calculus and French. Starting junior year, however, he started taking some stimulating classes that he had been trying to get since he got there, but of course, upperclassmen get “firsties.” As a junior he could get Country Music, already mentioned by kelsmom, and as a senior he got a Rennhoff economics class, as well as Vrooman’s Sports Economics. (These are all coveted classes.) Last semester he took Soul Food in Text taught by writer-in-residence Alice Randall, from whom he learned to be a better writer and a better cook! He received an A in all these classes His political science classes are always rigorous, taught by renowned lecturers but often graded by TAs. Sure, he still had the grade deflation in the poli sci classes, but those grades are offset by the A’s in the aforementioned coveted classes. He has tried to get a good P class all 7 semesters, and finally his last semester he will be fullfilling that AXLE credit. To lenny2 and her D, I say don’t despair. It gets better.</p>
<p>persiandad and lenny2: I wish I could address your questions about grades and grad school, but it’s too soon for me. Let me get back with you in March on whether getting into grad school is a problem. S is a double major in econ and poli sci and is applying to grad schools over the break. He plans to get his Master’s in Public Policy (MPP), which I realize is not the same as med school,persiandad, but perhaps I’ll be able to answer the grad school questions in general in time. His GPA is a bit over 3.6, which is good, not great. His GRE scores are good, not great. He is applying to Duke (Yeah, still not over Duke…), Georgetown, and some schools recommended by his favorite poli sci professor. We shall see.</p>
<p>vandycentremom, thank you for the response. So you’re S is a poli sci major, and that’s what I think I will end up doing. How tough is the poli sci program at Vandy? Are A’s attainable?</p>
<p>@persiandad med school is HUGE undertaking at vanderbilt and just about every freshman in arts @ sciences starts out as pre-med, but drop it after the first two semesters. If you go into school focused and don’t get caught up in all the fun Commons stuff/greek life you should be all right though. As to your question, I don’t think med schools care too much about you coming from Vanderbilt as an excuse for a low GPA, plus the people you’re competing with will undoubtedly have a high GPA. </p>
<p>From the few friends I have who remained pre-med they say one of the most important things you can do is do well on the MCAT. If your MCAT score isn’t phenomenal your chances of going to a top program are slim. I actually did research with a professor on the admissions committee for Vandy Med and he told me that the people who apply and are accepted to Vanderbilt Med are pretty much from a different planet (ie research publications, wrote a book, 4.0 GPA, perfect MCAT scores, started a health related organization, etc). But Vanderbilt’s med school program is one of the best in the country so it might not be as challenging to go to a lesser known school. </p>
<p>My only advice would be to stay as focused as possible and remember why your at university when all the fun stuff starts. Also, build relationships with your professors and attend office hours. There have been many cases where I was on the edge of a grade and the teacher gave me the benefit of the doubt and gave me the higher of the two and I attribute it to going to office hours and building that relationship.</p>