Grade retention in 8th grade

Parents Forum
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<p>The OP’s kid is already on track to take AP calculus in high school; the OP’s odd scheme is intended to allow going beyond that in math, and take all of the AP sciences (probably six years of science total, counting the regular high school courses and the AP courses), not just one or maybe two of the most interest to the kid (for a more typical total of four or five years for a science-liking student).</p>

<p>The point is, the OP’s kid is already to the point where trying to fit additional science courses in the high school schedule is reaching diminishing returns, so odd plans like that proposed by the OP make little sense.</p>

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<p>We all agree the original plan of holding the boy back in 8th grade to squeeze in an extra math class was a terrible idea. I think the OP sees that now too. But some on this thread are attacking the idea that he should even worry about taking AP physics. If his school offers it and he applies to college without having taken it, saying he wants to be a physics major, yes, he will have some explaining to do. My daughter was already asked about something along those lines in an interview, and she felt it necessary to add a statement on her common app to explain why she didn’t take particular high school courses. It would be kind of like saying, I want to major in acting, but I figured I’d get plenty of acting experience in college so I didn’t bother to participate in any of my high school plays. </p>

<p>I hope the OP will come to a balanced plan which prioritizes the classes which will be of the most use and interest to his son and just not worry about the ones that are less related to his interests and/or too hard to schedule. I hope he will also learn more about American education and of course always be considering his son’s happiness and evolving interests.</p>

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<p>I didn’t hear anyone suggest AP Physics wasn’t necessary (did I miss something?). I’ve heard people say three years of physics isn’t necessary, physics so early isn’t necessary, taking all APs isn’t necessary. It’s not any one single class, or even group of classes. It’s the AP or bust mentality, the perceived lack of flexibility, the perception that the son has had no part in the planning process, and if he were to request a change at any point that would not be welcomed.</p>

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<p>Mathyone- mother of a former physics major here. You don’t need to explain to me the value of physics- either intellectually, or as a scientific discipline.</p>

<p>My point here is that we have zero indication of what this kid is interested in. We’ve got a parent who sees that the kid is good in math (apparently, not as good in math as others in his junior high, but good in math) and has figured out that repeated 8th grade, accelerating in both math and sciences in order to get to physics before 11th grade so he’s not overburdened by SAT prep, etc. is the golden ticket.</p>

<p>If the kid were posting here about his love for physics- I’d be recommending a dozen books, programs, etc for the kid. But this is a parent!!!</p>

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<p>@blossom, . Somewhere early in this long thread, the OP says the boy is very interested in physics. There isn’t much point in continuing this discussion if people insist that the OP must be lying. The boy is barely 13 years old. I wouldn’t want my 8th grader posting on message boards. We have 21 year old college seniors being posted about here by their parents and no one questions that. I think the OP rejected the plan of repeating 8th grade many pages back. Maybe you should focus on recommending all those books and programs instead of accusing the OP of lying and expecting a 13 year old kid to manage his entire life independently.</p>

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<p>My kid likes to read and discuss physics topics related to the structure of the cosmos, particle, nuclear explosions, mechanics principle etc. Obviously, he is not really understanding them. He may read them as fiction books he likes too. I feel his math is almost ready to study physics. I would like to combine all resources together for him to build a immersion environment(about 3 yrs) to study physics. maybe only 1 yr(10th grade) in high school class since he needs to take bio & chem. Add 1-2 summer schools and self study. Try to cover AP phy B + C (M and EM).</p>

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<p>I think he would need algebra2/trig for physics. He could probably do them concurrently, but it might make it harder if the classes aren’t well coordinated. You should look at your high school’s prerequisites. Don’t push too much summer school unless he is asking for it. That could lead to motivation problems. </p>

<p>Also consider what science classes the other kids will be in. He may enjoy all the classes more if his friends are also in them.</p>

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<p>There’s a difference between liking physics and wanting to spend your summers on intensive extra study. What if your son wants to do something else with his time? He will still have taken an AP Physics course by the end of high school, and of course if it is really a passion of his, he can take extra courses. But I don’t think his current level of interest is any kind of guarantee that is worth drawing up a three-year plan over.</p>

<p>Basically, what I’m hearing isn’t “he needs this” or even “he wants this,” I’m hearing " I want it for him, and he could probably manage it." That’s not a good enough reason to override school policies, switch schools, or start looking for enrichment program years before it becomes relevant. </p>

<p>While your son sounds bright, from what you’re saying it isn’t even clear to me that he would be better off doing physics in 10th grade. In my hometown’s pretty competitive suburban high school, the advanced kids don’t get to physics until 11th grade. You’re talking about a young tenth grader. You’re probably right that he can handle it, as other students in your district do, but maybe he’ll do better in the class a year later. From a purely practical perspective, that’s worth considering.</p>

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<p>I never said to force him. I say to guide or induce him with a plan. I feel 9th-11th grade is gold time to study it. We can start it from basic physics which Alg1 is enough. Teach/study it with combining math and physics may also raise his interest on both math and physics.</p>

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<p>So he ISN’T the one interested in physics OR math beyond being good at math back in 5th grade and talking abstract topics related to physics. YOU are hoping your plan “may also raise his interest on both math and physics”. My D has interests that I can’t pry her away from. SHE asks to take on more, SHE asks for programs/classes. If I decided that since she likes discussing a topic on occasion that means I should shove her into every class possible on that topic, it would backfire in a big way. </p>

<p>You’re trying to steer your son into an intensive, multi-year study plan that he isn’t asking for or even showing that much interest in. You’re going to regret that.</p>

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<p>Keep in mind even if you can ‘induce’ him, honors and AP classes typically come with prerequisites with an A, corequisites, and require a teacher recommendation. It isn’t just a matter of you deciding what’s best and your son submitting. There are some things that seem a formality, others the teachers make clear if they don’t approach you with the recommendation do not bother asking.</p>

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<p>I think OP wants to help his/her son get into a good college and is looking for a strategy to increase his odds. We have to respect that.
Everyone’s already realized, OP included, that being held back is more likely in the kid being labelled as “slow” than in adcoms thinking “wow he took geometry in 9th grade”.</p>

<p>Unfortunately, some of the strategy is misguided for the top colleges (I’m talking top 10 LACs and top 10 national universities, as well as Top 25 universities and LACs): when s/he’s writing his essays on how s/he spent his summer vacations after 10th and 11th grade (for schools such as Yale or Stanford), if Op’s son writes about taking an extra physics class, s/he’ll be cut for being a “drone”, ie, a kid who studies all the time. They want to see something different for the summer, something that makes sense, and that is not parent-induced. It can be a language summer camp in a language they’re passionate about, “woofing”, coaching Little League, working at a lake concession stand or at a bodega, spending 5 days out in the wilderness with friends and fending for themselves without adults, backpacking through Ireland and keeping a blog about reconnecting with their ancestors’ history, building a drone/toy in his garage. It has to “flow” naturally from what they’re involved in and are passionate about - a violin player wouldn’t go picking vegetables on a farm, for instance.</p>

<p>Applicants to top schools (and others…!) have to read “for fun”, all kinds of books - young adult novels, non fiction, and comics/graphic novels included. They should just read “fun” books as much as possible, every day, so that when they get to high school they can read fast and understand quickly what’s important. OP’s son will have to be able to speak eloquently about a book (or several books) he read for fun, too - several colleges will ask about that. </p>

<p>“Piling up AP’s” is not a panacea, either. Having 6-8 AP’s is seen as perfectly fine - as others have said previously, after that number there’s a law of diminishing returns (in other words, as long as you have 6-8, it doesn’t really matter if you have more). And if a kid took 10 in a school that offers 15, and the counselor doesn’t check “most demanding”, then the adcoms roll their eyes. A possible strategy for a gifted kid would be to dual-enroll him at the local community college after precalc, so that he’ll take Calculus I first semester and Calculus II second semester (college classes are much faster paced and adcoms like to see that the applicant was able to keep up.) The same thing could be done for Physics. In addition, this “looks better” than just piling up AP’s. It proves the student can handle college, which is a great predictor of college success, and if shows depth.
Additionally, I would recommend that he NOT max out on his science AP’s filling his schedule with AP maths and sciences - he should find another subject which interests him a lot and he should maintain a certain balance, since some “techie” applicants, especially boys, tend to neglect the humanities and/or social sciences. Top colleges (including schools such as MIT, HarveyMudd, CalTech) like to see students who found a humanities subject they liked and excelled in. It can be English, a language, history, they can even go out on a limb and take Philosophy at community college… </p>

<p>As for SAT prep: your son is unlikely to need it. Adcoms at the very top colleges look for a “7” (7xx). After that 7, it doesn’t really matter. Admission isn’t played between 720 and 760. So, he’s in 7th grade and he’s just roughly 50 points away from the score he needs in 12th grade already. You might want him to prep for PSAT in 10th grade so that he makes NMSF/NMF, but don’t worry. So don’t plan on him needing time on the SAT.He’ll score 2100 by 12th grade, no sweat. </p>

<p>At that point what matters is not 21000 vs. 2200 vs. 2300 (it’d be too simple…), what matters is whether the student was involved in something where he showed passion, maturity, initiative, and leadership; it could be Math Olympiads but it can be <em>anything</em>. Your son could start a club in high school about something he’s passionate about, and actually DO something from it (raise money, organize a city-wide action, work with the middle school…) He could create a blog and make it a recent accross the state or the country, or invent a silly cell phone app that is downloaded thousands of times, or have a venture to make money, or be successful at sports, or have an art exhibit in the town hall or be a soloist in the school’s concert choir. It’s more important for him to be passionate and different from the thousands of other accomplished applicants, than it is for him to have 30 more points on the SAT.</p>

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<p>Your child is 13, and you are planning out all of his courses so he can take ALL AP courses in High School…but this will only work if he is retained in 8th grade? Do I have that straight?</p>

<p>Please forgive me if this has all been said. This is a 13 year old. A LOT can change between now and when he has to declare a college major. He might decide to pursue a career that doesn’t require college at all (perish the thought). I would hate to see this kid totally burnt out to satisfy a parent desire to have him take ALL AP courses in High School. </p>

<p>Are you going to allow him to have any fun? Will he be allowed to go out with friends, and have a social life? Will he be able to pursue ECs that HE likes (not just math team or robotics)?</p>

<p>Not every kid who is successful in college is in accelerated math when they are in middle school. Heavens…some successful kids don’t EVER take calculus in high school.</p>

<p>I think you need to lighten up a bit…no need to be so aggressive regarding courses right now.</p>

<p>If age is ALL you are concerned about, consider a post grad year at a prep school AFTER high school.</p>

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<p>“Adcoms at the very top colleges look for a “7” (7xx). After that 7, it doesn’t really matter.”<br>
[Admission</a> Statistics | Princeton University](<a href=“http://www.princeton.edu/admission/applyingforadmission/admission_statistics/]Admission”>http://www.princeton.edu/admission/applyingforadmission/admission_statistics/)</p>

<p>SAT 2300-2400 admit rate 16.5%
SAT 2100-2290 admit rate 7.5%</p>

<p>Apparently, it matters to Princeton.</p>

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<p>Or it really doesn’t matter, and that statistic is an artifact of some other factor that does matter.</p>

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<p>Regarding dual enrollment at a college, easy to say, but that is waaaay harder logistically than taking an AP class. My daughter did it this fall. It was difficult to find classes which would work with her high school scheduling constraints. In fact, we were only able to find a fall class. Spring didn’t work, leaving a big hole in her hs schedule. We had to pay the tuition without knowing whether the scheduling necessary for her college class would completely wreck her high school schedule. That was a little unnerving. It was 4-year college tuition, not cc tuition. We were fortunate that everything worked out for her, but it very well might have meant sticking her in high school classes she hated. Then we had to arrange transportation. We got her driver’s license, which she otherwise wouldn’t have needed yet. That of course meant paying insurance. We opted to buy another car so that she could drive there. That option may not be feasible for many families. If we hadn’t done that, she would have needed transportation to the class, 4 days a week, then someone to wait around for an hour, then get her to the high school on a fairly tight schedule. Actually in our case we would have had some carpool opportunity making it only about 4 hours per week of me driving her around, but that is what most families would face. If she had done this as a junior she would have been too young to drive so I would have been stuck chauffering. We also had to arrange parking. The cost of a parking permit was very high. We opted to have her use the parking garage and just hope that it wouldn’t be full and cause her to miss class. Because of the scheduling, she couldn’t attend the meetings of the activity she’s been most involved in, in high school, and so she missed out on the leadership position she would have had there. Yes, a college class is better than a high school class, but it comes with a lot of costs.</p>

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<p>Share an interesting paper:
<a href=“https://www.uleth.ca/dspace/bitstream/handle/10133/2584/checkley,%20doug.pdf?sequence=1[/url]”>https://www.uleth.ca/dspace/bitstream/handle/10133/2584/checkley,%20doug.pdf?sequence=1&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>You’re better off trying to make a point in brief as opposed to simply linking a 228 document on Physics. Even the most interested poster isn’t going to weed through that and try to determine what you’re trying to convey. Even if physics were my life’s work and greatest joy and I took hours to read it, I would come to completely different conclusions then you…it’s 228 pages, there’s a lot of room to interpret what’s important.</p>

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<p>another short paper
<a href=“http://users.df.uba.ar/sgil/physics_paper_doc/papers_phys/teaching/williams.pdf[/url]”>http://users.df.uba.ar/sgil/physics_paper_doc/papers_phys/teaching/williams.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>What point are you trying to make with the papers that you can’t make by summarizing them?</p>