Graduate School Dilemma. HBS/Wharton or Fast-Tracked Masters. Possible?

Graduate School Business School - MBA
1

I am 21 years old and will graduate with a bachelors in Finance in 2 years. I intend to work for 10-15 years before I start my own business.

My until the end of my freshman year I was a complete dunce in school with 2.8. Turned my life around, got all A’s in all classes and ended my associates with a 3.54. I am making all A’s at University and plan to make a 4.0 for my bachelor’s degree while holding leadership positions and starting a nonprofit. I will have recommendations from a two Harvard Doctors, and possibly one Harvard Professor (ideally). The only thing I am missing is the work experience.

Assuming all of the above, and that my nonprofit does decently well (10k donations), what are my odds of getting into HBS with internships at notable firms(Goldman Sachs, Merrill Lynch; however I heard HBS doesn’t like bankers??)? If I can’t get in, what EXACT steps should I take to ensure admission? In addition, is the 200k investment really worth it or am I better off using that money like a real entrepreneur?

Alternatively, I have the option to “Fast-Track” at the University of Texas at Dallas (UTD) and I could receive my MBA in 1 year after graduating with my Bachelors in finance for FREE. So instead of going to Harvard/Wharton, I could save one year of time and $200,000. Payscale states that Harvard/Wharton grads make $200k a year out of college, and my friends Dad says he would hire me at around 110k if I obtain a Masters (from any college).

I am not sure what I should do. With the debt from Harvard/Wharton be crippling assuming I must pay for it, or would I easily recoup the costs?

2

Please respond geniuses.

3

It depends on what you to do with the degree. If it were me, no doubt it would be HBS, assuming you can obtain admission (an awfully large assumption given their almost single digit admission rate and average GMAT score of 730)—and really no comparison between the two (for instance UT Dallas average gmat is 600).

4

For top MBA programs, work experience is key.

5

Is work experience key, or are internships okay?

6

Take a step back…

You’re not getting into HBS or Wharton if you’re in a UTD track. Getting an associates degree alone means that you’re not a typical HBS applicant. What are your test scores, for example, and why do you think that a job at Goldman is realistic (coming from UTD, and when your other option seems to be your father’s friend, and when you had a 2.8 one year)? Just why would collecting 10k in donations for your nonprofit be a standout? You’re actually asking if internships suffice for HBS? Of course they don’t, and the typical applicant in the HBS pool knows that and has been planning accordingly for years.

Not trying to be harsh, but so many people on this board give all sorts of information about that them that shows that they’re strong candidates for maybe UT-Austin or SMU, but they always “plan” to have a 4.0, “plan” to get a Goldman Sachs job and “plan” to go to HBS or Wharton. Planning for things that aren’t likely (at all) to happen is wasting your time and energy, so move onto something realistic.

7

My test scores on what? I make 100s on every test. I am not the typical HBS candidate, I believe I am much greater. I will succeed, and I will get a 4.0. Goldman Sachs will beg me to work for them, but I am not sure I will end up working for them or go to Harvard. Ideally I will be a college drop-out who starts his own successful business. In the mean time, I have to have a fall back and thats HBS.

I outwork everyone, I outspeak everyone, outsmart everyone, and outperform everyone. I was misguided as a youth, but now that I am in the right direction nothing will stop me. And you are right, shooting for 10k was a little low. I am going to shoot for much, much more than that.

Now tell me, what will I be missing?

8

Missing–well, just the actual grades, scores and germane positions. As my Mom use to always say: " potential just means that you have never done it." I love a confident person, but that is predicated on already achieving it, otherwise, it’s just aspirational…

9

Average GPA for Harvard grad school is 3.7. I have no problem getting a 3.9-4.0

10

I’m not trying to burst your bubble, but you are aware that largest represented group of schools at HBS, are Ivy plus (Ivy plus,MIT, UChicago and Stanford), and not all gpas are created equal (e.g. Harvard favors their own undergrads), that said, best—

11

@xgozax, if you’re so amazing:

  1. Why aren't you going to Harvard College now? If you outwork and outsmart everyone, how in the world did you end up at a community college and then UTD?
  2. You say that you have no problem getting a 3.94-5. Why did you get a 2.8? Don't you realize that the GPA that HBS will look at includes that 2.8, which is a terrible GPA, particularly from where you earned it? A 3.54 in your associates' degree isn't all that. I had a 3.8+ coming from a top-10 liberal arts college, which got me into Harvard, and I was middle of the pack at Harvard.
  3. You flaunt your test scores. You don't seriously think that we mean classroom tests, do you? Test scores would be the SAT (and you should have gotten at least a 2250 or so to show that you have sufficient smarts) and you will also need a sky-high score on the GMAT. My test scores for my Harvard admission were above the 98th percentile, and that was middle of the pack, too.
  4. Don't you realize that EVERYONE at Harvard is coming from being the highest-scoring, highest-ranking, hardest-working person (more or less) in their prior schools, and that Harvard has an excess of those people to pick and choose from?
12

@xgozax, I looked up your college (UTD) and see that it’s ranked by US News: National Universities, #140. You may well be the hardest-working and smartest person there, but that’s not saying a lot.

I was #3 in my class at a top-10 liberal arts college and while I didn’t consider myself the smartest person there, I was one of the hardest-working. My test scores were 98th percentile. Even with those stats, I barely squeaked into Harvard, and at Harvard, I unfortunately quickly discovered that I was just middle of the pack–many people there are just geniuses, literally, and can pick up anything intellectual in a snap, and everyone is extremely motivated, hard-working, ambitious and talented.

To say that you are “much greater” than the typical HBS candidate just shows that not only do you have no clue about who you’re competing against (as people in 139 universities, and plenty of colleges, ranked higher than yours, already have a leg up), but you have zero clue whatsoever about the talent that you would be competing against at Harvard.

The HBS admitted student pool consists of a slew of people from Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, etc., some from top-tier liberal arts colleges such as Amherst, and then the #1 person in the class from a decent range of lesser universities, but if you’re coming from UTD, you’ll need to (1) be #1 in your class, (2) have a GMAT score in the mid-700s at least and (3) have amazing work experience of at least a few years on the job, with a blue-chip employer (no, your friend’s father doesn’t suffice) and have been promoted or otherwise shown success on the job. Being extremely arrogant, as you are, will torpedo your success at work.

So get some perspective, get some modesty and get real.

13

I wouldn’t be as harsh on the OP.

College ranking isn’t as reductionist/essentialist as people are making it out to be. A #140 rank is actually quite excellent, given that there are over 3,000 colleges in the U.S. - that puts UT-Dallas in the top 5% of colleges and universities nationwide. Being the smartest and hardest working person there, if that were the case, could potentially be saying a lot. There are many students who could have gone to and been very successful at top/elite schools who go to public universities or lower-ranked schools for a variety of reasons - financial, family-related, geographic, simple lack of knowledge. I’ve taught summer students from less prestigious schools who could’ve absolutely held their own with students from higher-ranked schools (and did, because we brought a mix of students in).

Ivy and other elite schools are overrepresented for a variety of reasons, but other undergrad schools Harvard lists in its MBA class Bob Jones University, Florida A&M University, Florida State, Georgia Southern University, Hampton University, Louisiana State University, Kettering University, Ohio Northern, University of Maine, and Montana State. It only lists the “University of Texas” collectivelly, making no distinction between the campuses.

I’m not saying that there aren’t some “feeder schools” to elite MBA programs or that you wouldn’t have an advantage if you went to Penn or Stanford or even UT-Austin instead of UTD. My point is, none of those universities I listed above are ranked very highly, and some of them are ranked below UTD, so if you wanted to go to HBS from UTD and you had the record for it, you could. You’d just have to do a little more work.

Class rank makes no difference in graduate admissions. Many colleges don’t even rank their students. I have no idea what my rank was in undergrad. So you don’t have to be #1 in your class. You need top grades and excellent GMAT scores and excellent work experience - yes, preferably at a blue-chip employer, because that’s who HBS admits.

Now, that said…you do have some unrealistic expectations, OP.

First of all, business schools are not going to ignore your CC GPA. They’ll likely be averaged together. That said, a 3.54 is good, especially if you turned it around from a 2.8. That sounds like you got straight As in your second year in college on, and you are still getting straight As. That is impressive.

Secondly, why are you getting recommendation letters from Harvard physicians? Is it just because they went to Harvard? That doesn’t matter so much. Your recommendations should come from people who know you well either academically or professionally, and who you’ve worked with and can attest to your potential to succeed in business school and in your work life. You only need two for HBS. Choosing a supervisor from that blue-chip work experience you’re going to get is good, plus maybe a leader of an extracurricular you did or a professor or something.

But it is very unlikely that you will be admitted to HBS straight from undergrad. Top business schools only do this in very rare, exceptional cases, and you are not an exceptional case. You’re going to need the work experience - at least 2 years, but 3-5 good years of progressively responsible experience will make you more competitive. I’m not sure where you heard that HBS doesn’t like bankers, because 11% of the class came from the financial services industry, and an additional 18% came from venture capital or private equity.

As for the question of whether you should go to Harvard or UTD, an MBA has rapidly diminishing returns the farther away from the top you get. An MBA from a top 25 school pays for itself and them some in the kind of salary that you can expect out of grad school. Poets & Quants highlights [starting salaries at top 50 business schools](http://poetsandquants.com/2014/03/13/what-mbas-are-making-at-the-top-50-schools/), and you can find this information on their websites, too. HBS grads’ median base salary in financial services is $140,000 to start, and half also got a signing bonus averaging $40,000. Of course, that’s on the higher end, but even in the slightly lower-paying fields most graduates are making around $125-130,000 to start with. Salaries are similar at other top business schools. (Payscale has some issues, so I wouldn’t rely solely on them for this information.) And that’s to start with - your salary will grow over time, even after you finish repaying the loans.

However, UTD’s business school is actually pretty good - they’re ranked #33, tied with Rice and Wisconsin, not much below Georgia Tech and Ohio State, and actually above Penn State, UF, and Maryland. The starting salary there, according to them, ranges between $80K and $90K. That’s quite a bit lower than the HBS MBA - BUT you also won’t have the burden of debt. If your friend’s dad truly would hire you at $110K, that’s not a whole lot lower then the rough average in several industries from HBS. Even if he doesn’t, UTD graduates end up at some good companies - AT&T, Deloitte, E&Y, Wells Fargo.

Though I would never recommend a student to get an MBA right after college. I guess it might be a good idea if you can roll it all together, but few people want to hire an MBA into a management position when they don’t have any work experience. I would resent reporting to a manager who had no experience in my field…it just wouldn’t work.

**

The tl;dr version:

  1. Nobody can tell you the "exact steps" you need to take to get into business school, but get high GMAT scores (730+), do those internships you're talking about if you can get them, and get some excellent and preferably prestigious work experience at a good company for a couple of years (2 at least, 3-5 is better).
  2. Whether or not you should do the UTD MBA vs. the Harvard MBA is up to you and your career goals. Top Ivy MBAs are always going to get the elite roles and plum jobs more easily than a UTD MBA. If you wanted to make Wall Street banking or something similar your ultimate goal, then a top MBA - should you get in - is the better bet. But if you'd be satisfied working for some excellent companies that maybe aren't as blue-chip, and potentially having lower average salaries, the UTD MBA may work out great. This is especially true if you want to stay in the South. And not having the debt hanging around would be good for an entrepreneur - if you wanted to strike out on your own after the top MBA you'd have to wait until you could pay off your debt to take the risk.
14

@jullet, if we were talking about someone who wanted to go to a top-50 MBA, I would let the OP’s view of himself as the greatest thing since sliced bread stand. But he’s wanting to go to Harvard. I graduated from there. It’s a whole other level of talent and competition. The OP has no idea what he’s up against.

I came from a top-10 liberal arts college (which sent multiple people to Harvard in the year I went to Harvard), but even coming from a top-10 LAC to Harvard was a huge difference in terms of student aptitude, drive and talent.

Once you get below the Ivies/Duke/Stanford/MIT and the like, the pool of eligible candidates for Harvard graduate school is pretty thin–even among top-10 LACs other than Amherst and Williams. Yes, there is someone from Bob Jones or the like every few years at Harvard, but it’s very rare. Someone who came from a community college with a 3.54 to UTD and who thinks that he’s amazing just because he wants to raise $10k for a nonprofit just isn’t on the same level as the rest of the successful HBS applicant pool, period.

Arrogance is bad. Arrogance that’s not backed up by accomplishment is even worse.

Of all of the people on CC (or in the world at large) who “plan” to go to Harvard, how many actually do? Very few. (And for the record, I NEVER planed to go there; I just worked like a dog all along, was terrified of failure, never viewed myself as amazing (and still don’t, since I’m NOT amazing) and when I was applying, I was focused on top-30 schools. I was shocked when I was admitted to Harvard and even though my degree is from there, I still have bad dreams about possibly flunking out.)

15

Thanks @juillet a very insightful response and really cleared up my future for me. @HappyAlumnus on the other hand has real anger problems and makes me strongly wonder if he truly went to Harvard. Keeps citing top 10 LAC, however forgets to understand that liberal arts are garbage and a waste of time. Makes me think he cites top 10 LAC because he is too embarrassed to type the actual name out.

@HappyAlumnus I don’t think you are successful or exceptional and if you did attend HBS it does not surprise me at all that you were middle of the pack. I don’t think you truly know what it means to be exceptional. I don’t think you realize that for some people, you can put them in any situation and they will succeed. I am one of those people. I woke up freshmen year, realizing I am in control of my future and I turned my life and the life of my friends around.

There is your fault, you don’t view yourself as amazing HappyAlumnus, but I do. Perhaps its because there is something me that amazes me daily. My insane work ethic, ability to get along with others, and accomplish anything I set my mind to. I will make a 4.0, because nothing will stop me. I will have numerous leadership positions, great job experience, and a flourishing nonprofit. I know I am the exception, and Harvard would be insane not to accept me in a few years. That is, if I choose to go. Most likely I will be a college drop-out running a very large nonprofit and accepting applications (and then later denying them) from college graduates like yourself(Unhappy Alumnus).

16

@xgozax:

(1) No, I’m not angry. I’m simply pointing out the truth: that someone with your stats and background is extremely, extremely unlikely to get into an HBS MBA program.

If you really want to go to Harvard, you should take an executive education program or an EdX or an Extension School class; you just write a check and go, as they’re largely open to the general public.

(2) You’re the only person in this thread who thinks that you’ll get into HBS. Read everyone else’s posts: mine are the harshest, but everyone has said that your views are overblown and unrealistic.

(3) Lash back all you want, but you should listen to what people in this thread are saying. Unfortunately until you’ve actually learned life’s lessons–that there are limits on what you can do with your life, and it’s a tough world out there–you’ll have to just listen to those of us who have.

(4) I graduated from a top-10 liberal arts college with a median SAT score several hundred points above UTD’s, and then graduated from Harvard for grad school.

(5) Please let us know how your Harvard MBA program and your Goldman Sachs job applications turn out. Please also continue to tell everyone about your greatness. Ignore what I say and just do those things then and watch how they turn out.

17

My guess is that most of the kids from tertiary undergrad programs who go on to HBS knocked it out of the park in rigorous STEM programs like applied math, comp sci, engineering etc. Majors that put them in high responsibility jobs right out of school or while still in school.

My sister-in-law went to HBS directly out of undergrad (which I think is rare), but she was a co-op (alternating semesters of work with school) studying chemical engineering at Georgia Tech. NO one made all 'A’s in that curriculum, much less all 100’s on all tests. Exams were typically graded on a bell curve, and it was not unusual to have a sub 60 class average on an exam. I think her humility was somewhat born out of that undergrad rigor, which prepared her well for the heavy Harvard case load and the all night poker games with her classmates.

I’m guessing most of the undergrad liberal arts, econ or business majors at HBS are coming from the feeder Ivy+ schools where those kids get recruited in to high responsibility jobs regardless of their major.

I think for the OP going to a free one-year MBA program at UTD with a guaranteed high paying job waiting for him/her is the way to go. Best of luck.

18

I’m willing to bet you’re right about that.

19

Thank you very much guys, I guess I will just have to see how I do! HBS doesn’t seem very hard to get into. Accepts top 11%, I am top 1%. Worse comes to worse I will UTD fast track or go to Wharton.

So the consensus is to get some work experience before obtaining my MBA?

20

You should apply only to Wharton and HBS and stake everything on just those two applications. If “worst comes to worst”, which is the correct grammar, then perhaps you can also apply to Stanford.