I have 2 kids and 4 niece and nephews. One is at a southern school and others are at various NE top 20 schools. They all belong to the Greek life at their schools. The only one that complained about hazing joined a non-national fraternity. One nephew just flat out told his fraternity brothers that he wasn’t going to do anything he didn’t want to do. Granted I only have 6 data points, but they are all very happy with their experience. I have also met a lot of their fraternity/sorority friends, and they all seem like very nice, respectful young adults.
Oldfort, I hate your argument. Bad behavior is bad behavior whether it is next door to me or 4,000 miles away. If I move away from bad behavior, the bad behavior is now ok? No.
I have a kid who joined a fraternity and a kid who joined a sorority. They both enjoyed their experiences. We are reading some terrible stories right now. Eventually a line is crossed and the frat system isn’t worth it. That is not my call where that line is but I won’t feel bad if frats go away.
CF, if I offer you a million dollars to be dropped in the desert with no shoes or water or cell phone and you accept my “persuasive inducement” (your words) to do so, and you die, who does the law hold at fault? Not me.
My child was not part of the Greek system, but yet profoundly affected–anymore suggestions??!
I was a victim of a crime before I joined the Greek system. The perpetrator was a landscaper. He went to jail, but nothing happened to the other landscapers.
Bay, if you drop me off in the desert with no shoes and not enough water, the law is going to hold you at fault.
If I am held at fault, then the men who dropped off the pledged should be held at fault.
If you felt so strongly about it, why did you not prosecute those fraternity brothers? Wouldn’t it be more effective to punish those people who violated your daughter instead of punishing everyone else?
I don’t know about you, Bay, but I demand more of myself morally than merely avoiding illegal activities. I have higher moral standards than that. Therefore, “Well, it wasn’t a crime,” does not count as a moral defense in my book. Just because the fraternity members in the Villa case have not been charged with crimes does not convince me that they are not at fault.
CF,
I’m fairly certain that you are able to find fault with everything a fraternity man does.
If fraternities are engaging in reckless activities, by raising their liability insurance costs would be a good deterrent for them to continue such behavior. At some point they will not be able to afford the insurance and cease to exist.
They are already at that point–hence, the reason for the need to self-insure.
I detest guns and I do not understand why people need to own guns. People tell me they need to own guns to protect themselves because they live in unsafe places. Well, I make sure we do not live in such places or associate with people who own guns. When my kids were growing up, if I knew a family owned guns, my kids didn’t have play date over there.
Many people like social/racial diversity where they live and where their kids go to school. I don’t because I saw no reason why my kids needed to be taunted at and abused like my brother was growing up.
At some point when the liability is unmanageable then they will cease to exist. At this time, many chapters are still going strong and many young people are still benefiting from the Greek life.
Decisions in life are not always black and white, which ironically seems to be the basis of your decision making. Had I had my own way, a beating followed by prosecution would have been the order of the day. In a vast display of both maturity and objectivity, my daughter intervened and said she would rather not ruin such a young persons life.
If you think I’m bring dramatic, peruse the internet, for sites, that are littered with photos taken at universities and Greek houses of our daughters and sisters. And for future reference, oldfort, I would prefer you not take that tone with me again.
@oldfort, apparently you did not read the links provided in this thread, in particular the link to the Atlantic article. The fraternities have avoided liability by having each chapter pretend to agree to a list of behaviors which they then do not follow, like not providing alcohol for underage students. Then, when the fraternity members don’t follow the rules, the insurance says, “Sorry, you were not following the rules you agreed to! We are shocked that there was underage drinking in a fraternity house! Your insurance is void and we will pay nothing.” Then the parents of the dead or raped students sue the parents of the raping or hazing fraternity members.
Premise is overgeneralizing and not that useful.
You have piqued my curiosity. How does one search out the photos you are referring to? I do not use the internet to look for photos of my daughters that are not attached to their names, so I don’t know how to do that.
It is difficult for me to respect this sort of governing body. This is not a “good national.” It doesn’t hold groups to a decent standard of behavior.
I keep hoping PG will weigh back in. What do you think about the Atlantic article, PG?
CF,
Isn’t it standard practice for insurance companies not to indemnify subscribers for activities that are specifically excluded from coverage? I’m not seeing how the fraternity coverage is any different from this.