<p>Hi,
I am a senior who's been lucky enough to be accepted to both Oberlin and Grinnell. I've researched quite a lot but still cannot choose one over another. I'm thinking about majoring in English, while music(classical, composition) is another huge part of my interests. I like reading, writing, and thinking. Lastly, I'm an international from Asia.
I know they are both fabulous and that's why I finally chose to ask your help. I will post this thread at Oberlin's too.
Thank you!</p>
<p>Oberlin seems the obvious choice for you, given you interest in composing classical music. Grinnell is a great school, but they don;t have a conservatory</p>
<p>D is in a similar position and she has done overnights (admitted student days-just got back from Grinnell) at both. D is a violinist. As to the music opportunities, Oberlin has an outstanding, very selective conservatory but if you are not top notch (e.g.: won awards for compositions, had pieces played by groups in public, etc), then your opportunities at Oberlin might be as limited, or even more limited than Grinnell. D has been communicating with Grinnell music faculty by e-mail and met one of the faculty who teaches composition at the admitted student's day (you can get his name off the website at G). He is active in his work and there is a competition for a summer scholarship of sorts to work with him at Grinnell. I would talk with faculty in composition at both schools to get a sense of your options. Oberlin has a community orchestra for folks not in the conservatory and from what we have learned, it is a pretty typical LAC orchestra and probably not too different from what Grinnell has. Students can audition for Oberlin's conservatory groups but are competing with some of the best for the spots.</p>
<p>With English, you would probably have a similar experience with either school. Both have a good sized international student body. The towns that the two are located in are similar (though Oberlin is closer to a large city-Cleveland). The students were very friendly and accepting at both. You have two great choices. D is agonizing over this. Either way, you have a good choice.</p>
<p>Congrats - these are both terrific schools and you can't go wrong.</p>
<p>Oberlin and Grinnell are obviously similar in many ways (normal LAC attributes, midwestern lack of pretentiousness compared to some of the east coast schools, strong streak of activism and liberal politics, strong academics pretty much across the board, excellent reputation with grad schools, student life focused on the campus with lots of concerts and events). My S also had these two at the top of his list, and we visited both (he chose to apply ED to Grinnell and is going there in the fall.)</p>
<p>But there are some differences:
- Facilities: Grinnell has incredible facilities, as a result of its huge endowment. Among the dozen or so LACs that we visited, we were most impressed with Grinnell's, and I hate to say it, but least impressed with Oberlin's. In particular, the lack of a decent student center at Oberlin contrasts with the stunning new student center at Grinnell - most LACs have a well-defined student center that serves as an important social hub. If you were a likely science major (as my S is), you could have enjoyed the gorgeous new science center at Oberlin, similar to the Noyce center at Grinnell.
And for the arts, the number and quality of theaters and performance spaces in Grinnell are amazing, particularly for a small LAC.
- Name recognition: Oberlin prob has better name recognition than Grinnell among non-academics, having been in the public consciousness for much longer (and while Grinnell has been around for a long time as well, I believe its rise has been primarily since the 80s when its endowment took off after smart investing by Warren Buffett). That being said, if you're going to a LAC, you're not going to have much name recognition anyway relative to the big national universities, especially internationally - so you're really talking differences at the margin. And undergrad name recognition is less of a factor if you're planning to go to grad school, where both schools have great reps.
Caution: Just so you're realistic about name recognition internationally, I have to mention the experience of a family friend's daughter who is graduating this year from Amherst and spent a year at the London School of Economics (LSE) as well as working in India. Not only was Amherst unheard of in the places she was at in London and India, but in India people at her firm took to introducing her as studying at LSE, rather than Amherst, since nobody had heard of Amherst, but most knew of LSE. But I assume that since you're deciding between LACs, you care more about your actual undergrad experience than the brand name.
- Class sizes: Somewhat larger at Oberlin than Grinnell. Grinnell's are particularly small, and Oberlin's a little larger than the typical LAC. On average, an Oberlin student experiences a class size of 33 and a Grinnell student a class size of 22.
- Overall size: Oberlin has more students (I believe around 2800) versus around 1700 at Grinnell. I suspect this gives Grinnell a cozier and close-knit feel, if you're the kind of student that values that. But if you're the kind that would get tired with a small college atmosphere, Oberlin would give you more room (or you end up spending a semester or year overseas, which a lot of students do particularly at the smaller colleges).
- Endowment: In addition to the facilities and small class sizes, Grinnell's enormous endowment gives it huge flexibility and power: to bring in more international students with generous financial aid, constantly adding new academic initiatives, generous funding of student initiatives, making all concerts and performances free (including for town people, to improve town-gown relations). And in the longer term, its endowment will enable it to stay in the topmost echelon of LACs.
- Location: Easier to get to Oberlin: more direct flights to Cleveland than Des Moines. In terms of campus life, both colleges focus on the campus - our tour guide at Oberlin said that most students don't get to Cleveland very much, and tend to spend their time at Oberlin.<br>
- Music: I agree with hornet's comments above for music opportunities for those not in the conservatory at Oberlin - my S had a similar take since he's interested in music as well. One thing to keep in mind though is that while both colleges will have lots of concerts, Oberlin would prob have even more because of recitals by conservatory students.</p>
<p>Apart from the comparisons above, we've obviously had more experience with Grinnell than Oberlin since S is going there. On that front (1) all the 8 alums he contacted uniformly raved about their experience there, and (2) everyone in the administration we met has been very open and honest with us - you really get a very good feeling about the college. I'd also suggest btw that you check out bethievt's comments about her son's choices and experience at Grinnell.</p>
<p>There was absolutely no question in our mind that Grinnell was the right choice for S (and hopefully that will be borne out when he actually gets there!), but obviously you have to decide what's right for you between these two great choices.</p>
<p>You can look on the other Choice thread for my comments about Grinnell. Oberlin was also a choice that my son had and it is a wonderful school too. I know lots of alum (including my hubby) and they all loved their time there. My son may have partly wanted his own school instead of following in Dad's footsteps. He also felt the smaller size of Grinnell would give him closer relationships with profs and smaller class sizes. And he was drawn to the incredible facilities and resources at Grinnell.</p>
<p>Do you have a better FA offer at one school than the other? These schools are both so excellent, you really can't go wrong.</p>
<p>Just chiming in to say that as a non-conservatory student S was reluctant to go to Oberlin. His music is important to him, but he wants a complete liberal arts education and to enter a different field upon graduation. He thought he'd feel like the poor step-child at Oberlin an didn't want to feel guilty about his choices with the really committed conservatory kids running around.</p>
<p>I know this sounds a bit neurotic, but there it is.</p>
<p>And now the his ex-GF is going to the Oberlin Conservatory he is really glad.</p>
<p>So, I know that even as a serious violinist he would chose Grinnell.</p>
<p>Thank you all!
It looks like Grinnell is more about academic and close-knit community, which appeals to me the most.
About music, methinks it all depends on how I do it, because I often get too shy to show others my works. so maybe Grinnell can be better for me in those ways.</p>
<p>Argh. I wish I could visit them!</p>
<p>I wish you could visit too, but I think the important message here is that you have two great options and could make the most of either, so I don't think you can make a bad choice.</p>
<p>My son is a Grinell senior, English major and he grew up overseas. He picked Grinnell over Oberlin as the environment seemed more socially diverse, there were more international students (higher percentage), the facilities were better and he knew he would have more chances to play music in a school without conservatory students. All these have been born out by his experiences. He (and I) also really liked Oberlin, but this was the right choice for him....He had visited both, and honestly we liked the town setting of Oberlin better, but he has been really happy in Iowa!</p>
<p>Good luck!</p>
<p>D has decided to go with Grinnell. Oberlin was fantastic but as a nonconservatory musician, she saw her options as better at Grinnell (bottom line was she wanted lessons from a professional faculty member, not an advanced undergrad; chamber groups at Grinnell would be coached by faculty where it was really iffy at Oberlin as a nonconservatory student if she could get professional coaching). So many of the other variables between the two were so similar that she really couldn't decide based on the academic end. The downside is her flight schedule. She'll end up sitting in O'Hare for a while to change planes while Cleveland would be shorter and more direct! I've also heard that Grinnell has stinky Ginko trees. However, they can't be any worse than the Bradford Pear trees in bloom found all over our local Flagship state U campus!</p>
<p>It's interesting that the Oberlin/Grinnell decision is a quite popular one. </p>
<p>After all the acceptance letters arrived, my brother also narrowed his choices to these two schools. He has visited both over the past few weeks, only to meet several other people who were also choosing between the two. </p>
<p>His Oberlin visit was extremely enjoyable, but he questioned whether the outward eccentricity would become irritating in the long run. When he later visited Grinnell, he didn't have as much fun, but he was impressed with the facilities and all of the amenities the bloated endowment could provide. For about 24 hours, he thought he was going to go to Grinnell.</p>
<p>But then he thought about how limiting and isolated the location was, and how much more rustic the Oberlin campus was. A left-leaning, liberal student, he liked the idea that Oberlin was known for being progressive. Grinnell, while certainly not conservative, was more traditional. </p>
<p>It looks like he'll be choosing Obie, but he has yet to send the deposit. </p>
<p>Both schools are top-notch academically. </p>
<p>M's Mom: Being the child of an academic who has spoken to several professors about my brother's decision at New College of Florida (another progressive LAC), I can safely say that Oberlin is more prestigious in both academic and non-academic circles.</p>
<p>joshnewcollege, congrats to your brother. I think if he felt more comfortable with the students and feel of Oberlin, that's a good reason to go there.</p>
<p>Some observations on a couple of your other comments:
- It would be very hard to classify the Grinnell student body as 'traditional'. I would agree that some Oberlin students are probably more aggressively non-conformist than Grinnell's (although others may disagree), but both colleges are certainly way on the liberal and progressive end of the spectrum. So much so that I'm a little concerned whether S at Grinnell would have an adequate exposure to and debate with conservative ideas that I think should also be part of a truly liberal education.
- Among academics, I would disagree that there is a substantial difference between the perception of Grinnell and Oberlin. (We happened to check with several academics as well who had a different perception from the ones you spoke with, but frankly neither our effort nor yours constitutes a large sample size.) A better sampling is the "peer assessment" component of the USNWR LAC tables - over 2000 responses from academics - where the two colleges appear statistically indistinguishable - 4.3 out of 5 for Grinnell, 4.2 for Oberlin. (While I'm not a fan of the overall USNWR rankings, I do think the individual componets are sometimes useful.)</p>
<p>I have to agree with M's Mom. No one out-funks Grinnell. The "funky and progressive" description in the Fiske Guide is very accurate. But Oberlin's a great school too. Only good options here.</p>
<p>M's Mom: You're right that our analyses are biased and unscientific. </p>
<p>I assume that the point of view that I was given is based on the fact that Oberlin enjoys a more historical prestige, whereas Grinnell's prestige skyrocketed over the past few decades. Oberlin has also produced more future Ph.D. students than any other LAC; however, Grinnell also ranks highly on similar indicators. </p>
<p>Regarding traditionality, my brother said that there was more of a "Midwestern charm" at Grinnell, whereas Oberlin had a bit more of an East Coast feel. We classified both as liberal LAC's from the get-go, so the distinctions I made in my post were an example of the type of hairsplitting that sometimes goes into these decisions. </p>
<p>I'll make a plug here: If anyone knows somebody who would like to go to a place like Grinnell or Oberlin but doesn't quite have the stats, tell them to check out New College of Florida.</p>
<p>Oh, yes, I've heard great things about New College, joshnewcollege. Are you sure about the PhD statement? I would have thought Reed out-produces both Oberlin and Grinnell on that score.</p>
<p>Reed is ahead in percentage of graduates (after CalTech, Mudd and--depending on how the years are counted--Swarthmore); Oberlin is ahead of Reed in total number.</p>