<p>Hi,
I am a senior who's been lucky enough to be accepted to both Oberlin and Grinnell. I've researched quite a lot but still cannot choose one over another. I'm thinking about majoring in English, while music(classical, composition) is another huge part of my interests. I like reading, writing, and thinking. Lastly, I'm an international from Asia.
I know they are both fabulous and that's why I finally chose to ask your help. I will post this thread at Grinnell's too.
Thank you!</p>
<p>Oberlin has long had an excellent English department, with many of its graduates going on to top graduate schools, and has also produced some fine and commercially successful creative writers in recent years; it is unsurpassed for music -- there's nothing like it at Grinnell -- because it has a conservatory and jazz performance program; there are innumerable concerts, recitals, etc. of all kinds of music. There are many international students, including in the conservatory.</p>
<p>I don't know much about Grinnell, but if you are interested in music, even as just a casual pasttime, then Oberlin is a great place to be. I think much depends on how you want to incorporate music into your life. Do you play an instrument and want to participate in an ensemble or just enjoy going to concerts? Oberlin has many, many concerts all semester long over a wide variety of music styles. You say you are interested in compostion. You will not likely be able to work with a compositon professor at the conservatory, but possibly a graduate student. However, I would be surprised if Grinnell has anyone on the faculty who specializes in composition. </p>
<p>Oberlin is a larger school than Grinnell and likely has a more diverse population. It is also easier to get to Oberlin than Grinnell.</p>
<p>Oberlin does indeed have a wonderful conservatory. If musical training is very important to you, however, you should investigate what offerings are available to you as the conservatory curriculum is separate from the liberal arts school and not always altogether accessible to it.</p>
<p>Also, I haven't seen Grinnell, but Oberlin's campus is very attractive -- large in size, with many quads (squares of green) and trees; there are some beautiful and distinctive buildings, including the wonderful Allen Art Museum and Finney Chapel, and the "Quadrangle," now housing "Asia House" that was formerly a school of theology and includes a lovely small chapel, used as a performance space for many of the Conservatory performance groups; many of the buildings were designed by famous architects and lend a dignity and variety to the campus setting. The library is a wonderful space, colorful, lively, open. There is a variety of eating options, including student cooperatives where the students, as a group, purchase and prepare the food (and the cost is lower than the campus dining services). Although Grinnell in recent years has benefited from a big boost to its endowment, Oberlin also has a healthy endowment and is generally well maintained.</p>
<p>I have to disagree with Mamenyu on a couple of points. </p>
<p>It's just not true that Grinnell is less diverse than Oberlin. Grinnell spends a chunk of its considerable endowment income in ensuring a very diverse student body. These are the stats of the class that started last August: 14% are international; 15% are first-generation college students (some from the "Posse" program, which recruits and supports very low-income students); 20% students are U.S. students of color. (About a third of Grinnell U.S. students of color are Asian-American, about two thirds are Hispanic, African-American and Native American). That leaves just about two-thirds of the student body who are American, non-Hispanic white. 18% of tenured/tenure track faculty are racial minorities. These are pretty respectable statistics and compare well, I think, with Oberlin.</p>
<p>On the campuses . . . Oberlin and Grinnell are both on flat prairieland in very small towns (Oberlin slightly less tiny town that Grinnell). Oberlin buildings are very nice, but Grinnell's are absolutely amazing. Grinnell had been spending part of its big endowment (an alumnus invented the micro-ship, so Grinnell got in on the ground floor of the high-tech revolution and made pots of money) on incredible architecture. The new student building took my breath away, and there's a new science building just opened.</p>
<p>Having said all that to set the record straight, I think Unga77 should go to Oberlin. He/she has expressed no interest in either diversity or in campus appearance, but is a serious musician who wants to compose. Oberlin's excellent conservatory would be the place to do that, not Grinnell.</p>
<p>EDIT: I misread the quote, heh, sorry. Hktk and shennie are correct. Oberlin is easier to GET to for many.</p>
<p>Data-wise, it doesn't seem like there is a big diversity difference at all; I'd say they are about the same.</p>
<p>The science center at Oberlin is fairly new as well and I think it's gorgeous. I think you should take a look at the photos of each campus (from the galleries on their websites)...Oberlin's architecture is kind of everywhere, there isn't much of a common theme. It doesn't bother me, but other people may not like that. Best to look for yourself. You're going to find Oberlin fanatics and Grinnell fanatics (both probably biased, IMO) --figure out for yourself which you are. </p>
<p>Music wise, it's easy to say Oberlin has a more prominent music scene because of the conservatory. However, I have heard other prospective students voice concerns about getting time with professors if you're not a conservatory student---I would try to find more information about the opportunities you'll have as a liberal arts student.</p>
<p>Thank you guys for the thoughts.
With all your vivid descriptions of these two schools, it is even harder for me to decide! lol</p>
<p>So now that I am ensured that Oberlin in many ways surpasses Grinnell in music, can anyone comment about the English departments at the two schools?</p>
<p>Thanks!</p>
<p>It is easier to get to - not into. Oberlin is in the vicinity of Cleveland. Grinnell is in the middle of Iowa. For most people Oberlin would be easier to get to.</p>
<p>I've never been to Grinnell and I said nothing about its diversity -- all I said was that there are international students at Oberlin -- for example, the conservatory has admitted many international students from Asia and Eastern Europe; both are about equally diverse. Oberlin has an express commitment to increasing diversity; it is part of its heritage as the first school to admit women and African-Americans, but both schools have a long way to go compared to the schools in California, where I am from.
As to buildings, Oberlin has some very impressive architecture; to me, old buildings are appealing -- the buildings by Cass Gilbert at Oberlin, including the Allen Art museum, are lovely, with gargoyles and fine stone work, stained glass windows, etc. The new science center is attractive, but I find older architecture more distinctive. I've never seen Grinnell and have no idea what its buildings are like.<br>
The English department at Oberlin is one of the best departments among the liberal arts colleges -- it is also a popular major, so is a large faculty. I attended a couple of classes on a visit and was impressed by the level of student interest and participation and the intelligent guidance of the professor. I met several Oberlin graduates in graduate school in English and was impressed by them. I know nothing about the English department at Grinnell.</p>
<p>Heads up: I'm an incoming first-year at Oberlin, and my investigation of Grinnell was pretty cursory, so my knowledge of both schools is limited. That said, some general comments...</p>
<p>Be aware that Oberlin is nearly twice Grinnell's size – a good thing or a bad thing, depending on what you prefer. I was worried that Grinnell's size and location would be isolating, and found that Oberlin struck a perfect balance: a great sense of community without being claustrophobically small, a rural town 35 miles from Cleveland. On the other hand, I know people who visited Oberlin and decided that 2,800 students was too big. So it's worth some thought, especially if you can't visit.</p>
<p>Oberlin offers more academic programs than Grinnell; if you're interested in supplementing your English coursework with Creative Writing or Cinema Studies (or taking courses in archaeology, dance, environmental studies, geology, international studies, Italian, neuroscience, women's studies, among other things) you won't find anywhere near the same breadth or depth of offerings at Grinnell. We also have a significantly larger library, a top-ranked art museum (and the Art Rental program!), and brand new, top-of-the-line centers for science and environmental studies – not to mention programs like Winter Term, the Experimental College, and the co-op system. And as a function of our location and the presence of the Conservatory, it's easier for us to bring renowned and diverse events to campus: over 400 musical performances a year, not including other speakers and presenters.</p>
<p>So, my bias is obvious :) That said, they're both extraordinary schools, with a lot more similarities than differences – you really can't go wrong with either one.</p>
<p>English is one of Oberlin's largest departments, so course selection is huge, and the teachers are strong in all areas: from third world literature, to folklore, to contemporary works, satire, poetry, drama and classics. Most English teachers favor student presentations integrated into discussions, more than lectures. They also demand really high quality papers, but make time for lots of office hours to clarify the writing process.
Oberlin also has Rhetoric and Composition, Creative Writing, Theatre and Classics departments for deeper levels of study in those areas.</p>
<p>Sorry mamenyu, it was someone else who said that about diversity and I misattributed it to you.</p>
<p>Not a problem.
Both schools have their enthusiasts and very loyal alums, who remember their college years with tears in their eyes, and both have faculty members who were alums and came back to teach and carry on the traditions; most would agree that both schools are pretty comparable these days, both in their settings, their academic environments, and their "rankings." Both have strong enough endowments to offer first-rate opportunities. Both could have better weather, if you don't like snow.<br>
Gut reactions to architecture, your impressions of the few people you meet at orientation programs, or just how good a tour guide you had, can be decisive but also misleading. It is worthwhile to look closely at the academic programs you are particularly interested in, and the special features of these two great schools -- again, Oberlin's include one of the outstanding college art museums and music conservatories, for those interested in art history and music; Oberlin's winter term opportunities are also a special feature of the curriculum.</p>
<p>I am a third-year student from Grinnell who toured both campuses twice and researched them both in depth. I also encouraged my brother to apply to both Grinnell and Oberlin becuase they are excellent schools and you cannot go wrong choosing between them.</p>
<p>Oberlin does have larger departments, so you will have more course offerings there. As for music, if you are considering playing as a professional, go to Oberlin. If you just want to do it for fun and engagement, go to Grinnell.</p>
<p>You've already made your decision now, and will have a great experience no matter where you go. Also, students at one school will always tell you that the school you are at is better than its peers (you should see how bad of a rap Carleton gets among Grinnellians!) but in truth they are all admirable and attractive institutions. Anyone who hasn't started applying yet but finds one of these institutions attractive should strongly consider applying to and visiting the other one as well.</p>
<p>If you just want to listen and enjoy many many concerts, recitals -- Oberlin is the place. If you are a highly accomplished musician who aspires to a professional career -- Oberlin is the place. My observation is that it can be tough for the non-Conservatory-caliber musician to find opportunities to be a musician at Oberlin. Not impossible -- just tough. But at the end of the day, I think Seahorse is right, you really can't go wrong with your choice.</p>
<p>I would bet that the opportunities for nonConservatory musicians at Oberlin to be in good ensembles is at least as good as at Grinnell -- the level of performance at most LAC's is pretty poor; moreover, for excellent musicians not in the Conservatory there is the opportunity to audition for lessons with faculty at Oberlin, which is generally not the case at other colleges.</p>
<p>mamenyu: I'm sure that's true, but my S did not want to have to complete with conservatory musicians. He chose Williams over Oberlin as a musician because he wasn't ready to practice four hours a day and thought his commitment to his music might waver if he felt that he was at "the bottom of the barrel." This might not be the case for another student, but for him, it was.</p>
<p>A GF who played about where he did was admitted to the Conservatory. He admired her commitment but felt intimidated rather than encouraged by it. So although he level of played may be good enough, his approach is too low key for Oberlin's approach.</p>
<p>Another student might feel just the opposite.</p>
<p>Williams is pitched perfectly for him; the Berkshire Orchestra is semi-professional and very competitive; the student orchestra isn't. The rest of the department is serious and he fits in well there.</p>
<p>Grinnell might be just the same.</p>
<p>I was generalizing, of course. I think, though, that some of the comments on CC might give a distorted picture about opportunities at Oberlin for college students to perform, suggesting that it might be frustrating or less fun than playing music at an LAC without a conservatory. On the contrary, having the conservatory at Oberlin lifts all boats - musical students tend to make their own opportunities, and where good music is going on and there are lots of resources, it will for most nonConservatory students be a boon. I don't think it would be "tough," in other words. It might well be tougher in an LAC without the same resources, with fewer ensembles and coaches and fewer good musicians.
It depends on the student of course, as Mythmom's post demonstrates. And from what I've heard and seen on a visit to Williams, it is is exceptional when it comes to music -- it has an excellent musicology department and a lot of performance opportunities. </p>
<p>There is an interesting and helpful entry on the Oberlin admissions blogs about music opportunities for students in the college at Oberlin written by a student who went there as a college student and then auditioned for the jazz program.</p>