Guiding Our Kids: Lib Arts vs. Pre-Prof Outlooks

I’m struggling with how to advise my junior who’s a stellar student but uncertain of what she wants to actually do. She is leaning towards STEM, but I’m not sure that’s really where her heart is. She’s very pragmatic and is looking at careers based on salaries - probably because she’s seen me struggle for years as a single parent. (While I want her to be successful after she graduates, I also want her to love what she does.

The obvious/easy answer for her is to attend a public university in FL, our home state. But while I realize the courses will be more challenging, I am concerned that the first few years - so critical to helping determine career goals - will be more like high school on steroids, thanks to the abundance of online courses, huge class sizes, and TA-led education at our state unis. As a graduate of UF myself, I dream of a different kind of education for her - where she has opportunities to grow intellectually outside of the classroom and truly explore her passions to discover unique, but still financially viable, career paths.

The brochures we’re getting from the top LACs emphasize the individual attention and personal approach they offer students, including small class sizes from Day 1 and opportunities for meaningful work, internships, and research - even as freshmen. While I realize marketers are working overtime to entice students, I can’t help but wonder if the quality of education is substantially different (better?) at the top LACs and smaller top tier private schools. If she had a clear career path in mind and/or was more extroverted, I don’t think I’d be so concerned about a large state school.

Finances are another issue, of course, but that’s for another day - and one she’s well aware of.

I feel like we’re both clue-less when it comes to schools outside of community/state colleges/universities…so what are your thoughts and experiences with LACs and smaller private schools versus state universities? Is it just a difference in size or there a fundamental, meaningful difference in the experience?

Have you been on any college visits yet? We visited large, small, public, and private with our daughter. The smallest school has 2,000, the largest had 65,000 students. Prior to visiting, DD thought she wanted a smaller private but after seeing the resources of the larger publics, she totally revamped her list.

Many of the large publics have honors colleges which can make the experience more personal. My daughter has dinner with a professor every week, has some classes with fewer than 20 students, was already offered a co-op, has guaranteed research, and lots of personal attention. Even in her large lectures, her profs know her by name.

I would also caution you to keep finances in the forefront. It does no good to visit schools that aren’t affordable. Run the NPC for the schools on the list before visiting. If they aren’t going to work with the budget, save yourselves the heartache and strike them from the list.

Note that Florida has its own public LAC, New College of Florida, so if she wants a LAC but Florida public works better financially, that is an option.

In terms of liberal arts versus pre-professional outlook, they need not be mutually exclusive (despite what some may say to focus entirely on one or the other). Most college students do not have the luxury to completely ignore pre-professional considerations, since they need to have some way to self-support at graduation. However, this does not mean that they should ignore intellectual growth and learning for the sake of learning either.

In terms of education quality, the usual tradeoff is that big universities tend to have wider ranges of academic offerings at the higher (junior/senior) levels, but at the cost of larger less personal lower (frosh/soph) level courses, while LACs try to keep courses at all levels smaller, but at the cost of more limited offerings. Which tradeoff is better for any given student depends on the student and his/her interests and goals. Note that more popular subjects tend to have larger class sizes relative to the school overall.

In terms of finances, each college should have a net price calculator on its web site where you can put in some basic financial information and sometimes the student’s academic stats (if it also estimates merit scholarships) to get an estimate of what the financial package is likely to be. However, as a single parent, if you are divorced, be sure to read http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/2083835-faq-divorced-parents-financial-aid-and-net-price-calculators.html on the financial aid implications of divorced parents at some schools.

We had one kid who wasn’t certain of career direction as a HS senior. She elected to attend a smaller university with a very strong core course requirement…maybe 8 courses. These core courses were across a lot of disciplines and gave the students a taste of many areas.

Our other kid was firm in college major but his large university also had a core course requirement.

Both of our kids really liked the strong core option because these core courses were so diverse.

Perhaps consider some colleges with this option.

We sought to assure that our kids got a good taste of two worlds. Colleges with a strong core curriculum yet offered many strong disciplinary majors and interdisciplinary specializations. This can occur in a wide range of types of college: small liberal arts colleges, large universities, and specialized schools (e.g, art schools).

This can happen within FL. Early in my career I taught at FSU. Later at other state flagship universities. It’s the STUDENT as much as the curriculum that accounts for the focus in undergrad years. I attended a small liberal arts college. And yet that in no way limited the possibilities or options for my career. My son attended University of Chicago. His first job was in finance at a major consulting firm. My daughter attended an art school but her career has focused on social and environmental design and entrepreneurship.

It’s not mainly the school but the student who determines how the career develops. There are always elective courses, summer programs, and cross disciplinary courses that allow a student to get exposure to practical applications of their knowledge or to follow their interests.

Mixed bag, unfortunately.

My son very much wanted a small LAC and got exactly what he wanted … and dropped out after 2 years. Warm and cozy was wonderful for his first semester, but ended up being constraining and limiting – and all that personal attention the school offered turned out NOT to be the sort of hand-holding or guidance that I had envisioned as a parent. That is, if my son had been at a large u. and didn’t show up to class… no one would have noticed. At the small LAC… when he stopped showing up to class, the profs definitely noticed… but they didn’t do anything about it. They didn’t see it as their responsibility to reach out or rescue. I think that was a misconception on my part as to what I could expect at that college level, not a failing of the college. The bigger problem is that the small college environment didn’t provide a lot of maneuvering room.

So yes there are benefits to a small LAC… but that doesn’t necessarily work to the student’s advantage in the long run, especially when the student enters and is uncertain about major or goals — because when the student does figure out what she wants, she may discover that she is in the wrong place to get that — whereas a larger university also has more resources overall.

My son ended up transferring and graduating from a mid-size public, not a flagship.

And finances are a HUGE deal — especially if there is a potential for a change of major or approach down the line. Because changing majors might mean needing to take extra coursework to catch up.

I don’t mean to have this post come across a negative toward a LAC. It’s definitely an option worth exploring. I think from your original post that you already have a good sense of the reality: Private LAC’s do offer something qualitatively different than large state publics, but not as much as the hype in the marketing would lead you to believe. There is potential added value, but the actual amount is harder to put a finger on.

So do continue to explore this option – but also look at ALL your state U’s, not just the flagship level. You are fortunate to live in a state that offers a small LAC (New College of Florida) as an option – as well as some regional universities within the system which may be places where your daughter could flourish.

Well, I paid for the small private school for one kid, who did amazing things in HS, and that kid kind of crashed and burned, and didn’t take advantage of the resources the school offered, and he came out with no job and has been underemployed. (I thought I knew my kid and I would never have guessed that going in).The other went to a huge flagship public, and thrived, came out with a great job, etc.
The first kid was definitely STEM, so I wasn’t worried about going to a technical school. The second wanted a business major, but also wasn’t 100% sure and had other interests, so we both thought a state flagship with lots of strong majors was a better fit. That worked out well.
Strongest advice I have is do not go beyond your means and take out massive loans. I have yet to hear a kid say they are really happy they have all the loans years later, and I’ve heard several who wished they’d taken a different path. Your life and retirement are important too.

Such wise advice from everyone. We visited USF a few weeks ago which she liked “okay” but is not particularly excited about We did a quick tour of UF a couple of years ago, but will be going back this spring for a more in-depth visit. Last summer, she attended Discovery Day at New College, and she felt it was too small and didn’t think she’d fit in well with the students. (I was quite intrigued, but she was very sure of her decision to cross it off the list.)

We’ll be visiting UCF next month, and I’m particularly excited for her to visit the Honor’s College. I love how they have honors classes in core academic subjects - org chem, bio, etc. Right now, she’s leaning toward UF, but I think that’s just because that’s the “typical” in-state path for the students in her school’s IB program.

I’ve been struggling with whether to encourage her to just apply to Florida schools (or other NMF-friendly schools like UA or UDT) or if it’s worth applying to some top LACs and small/mid-size privates. We’re financially not in a position to visit OOS schools that are, in reality, long shots either in terms of admissions or finances.

But I appreciate the common-sense advice and the reminder that LACs are not not necessarily the panacea they’d like us to believe. They do a great job of selling themselves though…!

Though remarkable in its conclusion, this study seems to be infrequently cited. The authors themselves use conservative wording, but they do appear to strongly suggest that for maximal cognitive progression, it’s imperative – given a realistic choice – to select a liberal arts college:

Pascarella, Wong, Trolian and Blaich. Higher Education. 2013.

If NCF is too small, then other schools of similar size may also be too small. However, many other LACs are about twice as large as NCF.

But also check those other colleges’ net price calculators (being careful of the divorced parent implications if that applies to you – see the link in reply #2) first before encouraging applying to those schools. Try to avoid setting her up for wasted applications to schools that will not be affordable.

Our youngest chose a small LAC, Pomona College with 400 students in the grade while my oldest chose UC Berkeley (ended up in Haas BZ college) with over 500 kids in one classroom (Math). Each had matriculated from a CT prep/boarding school with 10 kids sitting around a Harkness table.

They both found pros and cons. At times, the Pomona student felt her school was too much like high school with up to 30 kids in a class. At times the oldest felt she would be swallowed up until she found her niche in a department, then business college. You can get a stellar education with each one.

You have to go and see where you think you belong, and even then, there are going to be growing pains as the student tries to grow into a college student.

There are schools of all sizes in Florida and by staying instate she’d get the benefit of bright futures and the EASE allowance (resident grant of 40% of instate tuition, about $3500). Check out U of Miami, Rollins, Flagler, Eckert, Florida Southern if she’s looking for the smaller size.

I had one at a 10k student school and one at a 3500 student school. Class size didn’t correlate as often the big school limited classes to 24 while the smaller school had 40-50 in a class. Both kids knew their profs and TAs, knew a lot of students in their classes

I’m a big school person. We did look at some LACs and I found them claustrophobic and the actual courses offered in a semester to be limited because they can’t offer 50 classes in the English dept when there are only 2000 students in the school (and 400 might be on study abroad). My kids liked some LACs but the finances didn’t really work out.

@merc81

Perhaps because of the skepticism articulated by the study authors themselves, in the study?

I find it interesting (not in a good way) that even though the study only covered students from 17 institutions, they chose not to identify the specific colleges or universities in their study. Kind of hard to look at this as being much more than anecdotal survey-derived information.

I recently visited Flagler, and was very impressed. I wish we had known about it when DD was applying to colleges.

Read post 11 again and again. U Miami lists their costs for students with SAT scores at various levels. Rollins gave 2 young people I know full tuition and R & B. I still talk to a graduate of Rollins. He went there reluctantly with finances the big draw, but now realizes the opportunities he gained by being a top student. I wish I knew kids from Stetson, but don’t. Most of the kids I know went to UF honors, FSU, UCF, UM, Lynn, FAU, unless they went to a service academy or a dream school.

Several thoughts here-- Most of these posts were not that supportive of the small LAC experience. Our family believes firmly in the small LAC and there’s a happy medium, which I don’t think anyone here has suggested yet. So here goes –

  1. As lovely as New College of Florida is, I personally wouldn’t send my child there, unless that child was burning to go there. It’s a different sort of school and not the typical small LAC at all. As my Florida niece put it: people are being weird for the sake of being weird there. I say this as a family who has a Hampshire graduate. We are generally weird tolerant. As with all schools you need to find the right school, the right fit, for your child – in academics, culture, location, and finances. LACs differ greatly from each other in all of these regards.

  2. Finances – you might be surprised at what you can afford in terms of a small LAC out of state, private one. You would need to find a school that would be the same or cheaper than a public Florida school. Or the price isn’t that much different and you feel that the price different would be worth it to her.

2a) Use the website College Navigator to find the average NET PRICE for each school that interests you. Run the NPC once you’ve narrowed your list. College Navigator is a fast way to weigh whether a college is affordable for you.

2b) If she has the stats to attend FSU or UF, then she probably has a chance to get good merit plus need-based aid at some of the small LACS.

2c) Many of the women’s colleges offer excellent aid. Far from being cloistered, some of them have men in the classes and share campuses with men. Some don’t. Men are allowed in the dorms overnight. She wouldn’t be entirely without men in her life if she chooses. Many women’s colleges are known also for providing excellent, Ivy-level education for women. Women who attend women’s colleges disproportionately rise into leadership positions in their fields, often ones dominated by men, such as science, politics, academia, business. Women who choose to attend a women’s school disproportionately study STEM – they are in a unique environment that is supportive of women in those programs.

  1. To offset the “too small” feel of small LACs, one approach is to attend a school that’s part of a consortium. A consortium allows a student of one school to freely take classes at a consortium school. That expands their social area, their available courses, their campus environment. The exam schedules are often synced. There is often transportation for free. That means if she were to attend, say, Bryn Mawr (excellent Ivy-level school with great aid), she could also take classes at Haverford (one mile away and suburban), Swarthmore (20 miles away and suburban to rural), and University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia – 20 minute train-ride away and urban).

Here are schools, women and coed, that you may want to consider for her. I’ve chosen these b/c they have FA for her presumed stats.

  • Muhlenberg (happy coed school)
  • Southwestern University (happy co-ed school a few miles from Austin TX, offers good aid)
  • Earlham (co-ed school)
  • Beloit (co-ed school)
  • Vassar -- need-based aid only but check College Navigator and NPC to see how you'd do here
  • St. Olaf (excellent co-ed school with great aid -- has buses to Minneapolis)

CONSORTIUM SCHOOLS

  • Bryn Mawr (women with excellent STEM shares co-ed campuses with Haverford, UPenn, Swarthmore and has a shared co-ed dorm with Haverford–exams at BMC and Haverford are self-scheduled–they have calm, happy campuses with gentle communities . If she applies to either school she will want to look into their Honor Code, which is what helps the campuses maintain this community and lower-stress environment.)
  • Smith (women, with excellent STEM, and in consortium with co-ed UMass Amherst, Amherst and women’s Mt. Holyoke. Smith offers excellent aid and is in a cute town.)
  • Mt. Holyoke (women, with excellent STEM, sunrooms in every dorm and cookies at night, horses on campus, in consortium same as Smith’s – aid here is quite good as well–like Bryn Mawr and Haverford, Mt. H also has an honor code which helps to maintain its homey, pleasant environment–in a small town, more rural)
  • Wellesley–can take some classes at MIT but not in a consoritum; super-duper aid.
  • Barnard – super aid, but all need-based, no merit. Shares a campus with Columbia University – across the street from each other
  • The Claremont Consortium – includes Scripps, Pomona, Harvey Mudd, Claremont-McK; Pitzer – each school has a different personality and all lay within five-minute walk from each other. Excellent educations.
  • Simmons in Boston has some excellent merit aid, is located in a wonderful city, is part of a consortium.

One note of caution, and again I say this as the auntie of children I love in Florida whose family has struggled with raising the children’s economic outlook there, you may want to gently research what areas are better able to launch them into better positions economically. There is a study that shows what areas are better able to do that compared with others.

Here is the map that shows the neighborhoods in the US and that area’s ability to change the economic prospects for children, for better and worse. Often a great neighborhood is next to a poorly performing neighborhood. It’s eye opening – https://opportunityinsights.org/

Here is one article that explains the study. It’s NY centric as it’s in the NYT but you get the idea from it how to read the map. Best of luck to you – https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/01/upshot/maps-neighborhoods-shape-child-poverty.html

I’m going to latch on to @Dustyfeathers post which I very much agree with, although YMMV. Although you haven’t mentioned her tests scores or GPA, I did see she is an IB student? I’ll make an assumption based on your original post that your income is not excessively high. With good test scores, GPA and IB scores (think 1350+, 3.8+, 38+) she would be a match for several LAC schools that meet full need. You can search here or google. Some of them include Vassar, Davidson, Colgate, Kenyon, Oberlin, Macalester, Smith (all girls). My favorite of the All Women colleges is Mount Holyoke. And there’s a whole bunch more if her scores are higher.

I agree with @NEPatsGirl, but I wouldn’t take your daughter’s IB score into consideration. She won’t find it out until after she graduates from high school.

@Marian, the schools provide a projected score to colleges, which is usually right on target. Apparently they are somehow penalized if they miss the mark by much or often, but I’m not sure how that works. Colleges do want the projected score and some offer specific merit $$ for same.

My daughter, who has an IB diploma, was never asked to provide a projected score. In fact, she didn’t even know her projected score. But she didn’t apply to any schools that offered merit money specifically for IB graduates. And that may be the reason why.