<p>D goes to a large, urban high school and likes the vitality of being in a school where a lot is going on. But I understand what Loren Pope is talking about when he describes the wonderful education that can be had when students are in close contact with professors, something that's harder to achieve at a large university. Parents here have been through this already, so I was hoping for advice. </p>
<p>Should I encourage D to look at LACs as well as larger colleges? Or will she outgrow a smaller college that has fewer courses available?</p>
<p>Or, as I suspect, does it depend on the kid?</p>
<p>Schools that she has liked so far: University of Maryland (I'm worried that this is too big), William and Mary (we're OOS).</p>
<p>Most small LACs have at least 500 students per class year; that's plenty of folks to get to know. For some kids a small LAC in a small town might be too confining.</p>
<p>I really think it depends on the kid. My S crossed off all of the wonderful LACs due to size. He wanted to be thrown into the great roaring ocean of university life and will be starting his second year at a 30,000-plus school. He is thriving, though I must say that I had my doubts going into it. My advice is to visit, perhaps have your D do overnights at large, mid- and small schools and then really trust her feelings on this. You can find great educations at any size school, so it's more of an issue of personal fit. (and I loved the Pope book, by the way, made me want to redo my college years!)</p>
<p>My D is a big-city kid attending a large LAC (2,600 or so) in a small college town (30,000). Originally, she wanted a larger school in a larger town. But after visiting a number of schools, she lowered the size limits on both. While she became comfortable with the idea of an LAC, she drew a line at about 2,000...and there are an awful lot of LAC's in the 900 to 1600 range. Her specific college town (Northampton, MA) she loves...but it has all the cultural singifiers that matter to her: good restaurants, art, theater, music, etc.
Some 30K towns would not meet her test, others would. Fwiw, her original #1 on paper was Columbia: big city, large school. She's extremely happy.</p>
<p>Like TheDad's daughter, my son went to a high school with more than 3000 students, about 800 in his class alone. He goes to Swarthmore, where the class size is 312 and approximately 1400 for the entire 4 years. He had the same concerns as the OP's daughter but he has thrived here and done well and is very happy into his junior year of college.</p>
<p>It depends on the student. My husband went to a large h.s. in Chicago, where he was a class officer and did similar leadership things. Afterward, he went to a small Christian LAC in Grand Rapids. He was happy and successful in both environments.</p>
<p>My kids had the same issue -- like diversity, like the city. I encouraged them both to look at LACs. They did. They didn't change their minds. But my daughter thought you could get too big, too -- schools with 20,000 undergraduates feel much less personal than those with 5,000, tougher to get any kind of continuity in your classes.</p>
<p>One intermediate solution which perhaps combines some of the best-of-both-worlds is to look at LACs that are part of consortiums that expand the available course offerings and student diversity. E.g., Five Colleges (Amherst, Smith, Mt. Holyoke, Hampshire as well as UMass-Amherst), or Claremont Colleges (Pomona, Claremont-McKenna, Harvey Mudd, Pitzer, ??), or Barnard College of Columbia University (maybe too close?).</p>
<p>Of course this experience is now decades old, but I received much more individual attention as one of thousands of undergrads at a state school than I did as one of a handful of grad students at an ivy league university.</p>
<p>Much depends on the area of study, the school and the particular student.</p>
<p>I do think size is one of those things where kids have an innate knowledge of what they want when they see it. The first place we went on our tour was Williams. D had gone to a small high school -450 kids for four grades. She took one look at Williams and said "I did this already." Similiarly, she did not like Northwestern or Cal, and even Stanford felt a little large to her. Princeton and Columbia felt like the right size to her. Now what that points out is that it's not just the number of people but also the campus. Stanford feels big because all the grad schools are right there on the main campus, even though its undergrad numbers are right with Princeton in the low 5,000s. Columbia has a lot more undergraduates - over 7,000 - but several of the grad schools are separated from the campus and the central area feels kind of smaller.</p>
<p>In any case, I think this is one area where it's all about fit and the kid will know.</p>
<p>I think that 7,000 number for Columbia is a little misleading. If you just count the college and the engineering school, and not the post-bac pre-meds or continuing ed people, it's about 5,500. Of course, if you count Barnard (which may be more relevant, since they're all living and taking classes right there), the numbers go up again.</p>
<p>My kid is one of those there's NYC and there's everywhere else kind of people. However, she knew that she did not want her entire educational experience to take place in Manhattan. She wanted specific things : She knew that she would be coming back to NY to live so she wanted to go away but not to far away, she wanted a small school where professors knew her name, and she wanted "a campus that looks the way college looks on tv" with lots of grass and open space.</p>
<p>When she first went to visit Dartmouth, I told her to check it out as it is just as important to know what you don't want as much as it is to know what you do want. I even joked with my sister about how she would be screaming to get back into the city. I never expected her to like it. She came back from Hanover and said this is the place. </p>
<p>Now going into junior year I am still shake my head an laugh at my NYC kid who on her last visit home when we went to Saks talked about her love for the store and one of the great things about coming home, being happy and finding her niche in rural NH. While she also loved Williams, one of the reasons she chose Dartmouth over Williams was because she felt in the end Williams was going to be too small and se did feel the difference between 2000 and 4000 students and felth that Dartmouth was small enough to really get to know people and large enough to have your space</p>
<p>I think it depends on the student and the surrounding area of the college, plus perhaps their area of study. Most students can do well in either situation--as there are positives and negatives for both.</p>
<p>I attended a large U.--liked it while I was there, but after seeing what my kids have gotten at smaller schools, I feel I missed out on many things--mostly close relationships with professors and a sense of belonging to the school.</p>
<p>My D. is at a very small LAC, about 1200 students, which is approx same as her high school. She has been happy there, but probably would have been happy anywhere as long as she could have had her specialized major (equine science) and participated on equestrian team. She knows everyone in her major and of course has had small classes.</p>
<p>Both sons ended up at small Us (approx 5000) and liked very much close relationships with profs, no classes over 30, no TAs--large enough to offer D1 sports and lots to do, but small enough not to get lost in the crowd. </p>
<p>However D-in-law went to large U and loved being one of many. She liked not having essay type tests often, papers were rarer and attendance was never taken. She was self motivated, did well and graduated with a great education--but when she wanted to disappear, she could.</p>
<p>macnyc, One size definitely doesn't fit all. My son who always lived in big cities with vibrant arts scenes and diverse populations believed that he needed an urban environment, but once he started visiting he found that he was really swept away by the concept of the small, isolated school. </p>
<p>He's now going into his senior year at Williams which is about as insular as you can get and has yet to feel a twinge of cabin fever. He loves the community, the ivory tower aspect, the individual focus, the opportunities for interships and the personal relationships with professors. He does manage to escape to New York once or twice a term, but he is always happy to get back to the purple bubble.</p>
<p>Personally, I went to a Big Ten school and was fairly miserable. It was just the wrong place at the wrong time for me. Obviously, many, many kids thrive at large universities and I would never discourage anyone from considering my almamater (UMich) since it offers a wonderful education. </p>
<p>I think the kids who do best at large universities are those who are self assertive and can elbow their way to the information and services that they need. Small colleges tend to provide more nurturing and direction -- even to those who hesitate to ask for it.</p>
<p>As far as the fewer courses questions: my son could attend Williams for another 10 years and still not get to all of the classes he wants to take. If your field is narrow and focused this may be a problem, but if you're a generalist (the definition of a liberal arts student) then you'll have no trouble filling up 8 semesters with all the world has to offer.</p>
<p>And when it comes ask for those job or graduate school recommendations you'll find you have a lot of friends on the faculty. Of course this may be true for students at Big U as well, but from personal experience, the shy or introverted student may have trouble establishing personal relationships with professors at a large, impersonal school.</p>
<p>I'd suggest that you help your daughter make a short list and do some visiting. Small LACs have distinctive personalities and you often get an immediate visceral reaction.</p>
<p>My daughter just graduated in a class of 1200. She only applied to LACs, one of the reasons being the size. It really bothered her to know only a small portion of her class. She was even surprised when the school had a top 10% reception, and there were students that she didn't know there! She does not want to sit through another graduation where she is constantly asking "Who is that?".</p>
<p>One other point. It's important to make the distinction between size and location. There are large universities that are in relatively isolated locations -- Cornell, Dartmouth -- and small LACs that are urban based -- Barnard, Macalester. So you may be able to have the best of both worlds depending on your preference.</p>
<p>
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I do think size is one of those things where kids have an innate knowledge of what they want when they see it.
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Agree.
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It's important to make the distinction between size and location. There are large universities that are in relatively isolated locations ... and small LACs that are urban based. So you may be able to have the best of both worlds depending on your preference.
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Agree.</p>
<p>And... I think that the same kid can thrive in a number of different environments, even if they are not his or her innate "fit." I know my S and I learned that this year, "the hard way" LOL. He chose a mid-sized university in a thrilling city (Tulane, New Orleans). He ended up Katrina'd at a tiny LAC in a small, "there's no there there" city (Bates, Lewiston Maine). He thrived at Bates and then back at Tulane with the city in a state of suspended animation. Okay, he's shown himself to be resilient and maybe not every kid is. But I think most kids are and we needn't worry about whether they <em>can</em> thrive in a different environment from what they're used to. A lot of kids can handle, and love, a variety of environments. If they've got a clear preference, fine. If they want to apply to a variety of sizes, fine.</p>
<p>And to the OP's point of whether her D will miss close contact with professors at a large U, I think she can have this via Honors programs, via opting for seminar classes whenever possible, via taking advantage of office hours. There are ways to make a large university "small." And ways to make a small LAC "large" - many of them have extensive lecture/cultural/music activities on-site as well as whatever goes on in the surrounding city.</p>
<p>Both of my kids graduated from an extremely small high school (graduating class of 50), so to them, almost every college seemed "big enough." Both of them had enjoyed years of small classes, close relationships with teachers, and feeling part of a caring community. They both checked out large universities, but didn't care for the impersonality and large classes. They both ended up choosing LAC's.</p>
<p>I'll echo the advice already stated - have your daughter check out both large and smaller school environments. Your daughter might find that a LAC setting is a refreshing change of pace for her. My goddaughter (from NYC), knowing that she would probably spend most of her adult life in a big city, chose to attend Dartmouth in rural NH - to provide her with a little variety in her life experience.</p>
<p>NYC kids that go to places like Kenyon seem to thrive. They find their 'people'. My travelling kids didn't want to look at small schools either--echoing the refrain of "I did that in high school." They both were/are social characters in high school and disliked the "He said! She said!" swirl of gossip. </p>
<p>However, I'm not sure they LOVE/will LOVE the anonymity of the large school. Both situations have their downsides.</p>
<p>D attended school of more than 3000, with almost 600 in her class alone. She kept saying she wanted urban U. She attends LAC with 1500 kids and is thriving.</p>