“No financial need” is the key phrase. Since 94% of freshmen and 90% of undergraduates have financial need at Guilford, I am only mildly surprised no merit scholarships were given out to people not receiving financial aid. </p>
<p>A school with such a high percentage of its students on financial aid is surprising to some people used to dealing with colleges like Haverford, which has 52% of its students on financial aid. That Guilford has so many is unsurprising; it draws heavily from the south, and many families live quite comfortably there on salaries less than a third of that on which families elsewhere “struggle” to exist.</p>
<p>I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, Guilford is not at Haverford’s level in terms of academics or reputation. Davidson can be chosen over Haverford guilt-free, maybe Sewanee and Rhodes too. Guilford is a notch below that, however. On the other hand, Guilford is a lot more relaxed and unassuming than Haverford, which is very appealing to some people. Barring extreme circumstances, I think Haverford is the better option here. (Haverford is one of my three favorite LACs, so I may be biased.)</p>
<p>According to the CDS files, in 2008-09, 153 merit scholarships were granted; in 2009-10 , 80 were granted; in 2010-11, 36 were granted; then, in 2011-12, zero were granted.</p>
<p>I’m wondering if something else is going on besides a failure to identify qualifying students with no financial need.</p>
<p>Apart from both having a Quaker heritage, Haverford and Guilford are miles apart. Haverford is perennially one of the top 10 LACs. Guilford isn’t. </p>
<p>I agree with the poster who suggested Earlham might be a better back-up to Haverford for a National Merit Scholar who is looking for a Quaker environment.</p>
<p>tk21769, when you say merit aid I assume you would include in that the presidential scholarships and I can tell you as one of the people who this year received a presidential scholarship from Guilford that they do give merit aid.</p>
<p>^ That’s interesting. sacora, would you characterize yourself as someone who had no financial need? Was your “Expected Family Contribution” lower than the full-price cost of attendance? If so, was part of the gap met with other (clearly “need-based”) aid?</p>
<p>I just wanted to echo tk’s comment about academic rigor. It can’t be judged by how hard the kids work, but about the level of work being handed out – the pace, content and quantity of reading and writing assignments. That can be difficult to judge from the outside, but at the risk of being called an elitist, I will guess that judging from the academic stats of the schools’ incoming students as listed in the Common Data Sets, that the curriculum will be far more accelerated at Haverford.</p>
<p>My D1 attends Haverford, and a close friend of hers attends Guilford. They compare notes all the time, and both agree the academics are far more rigorous—and yes, accelerated–at Haverford. Her friend, who would not have been competitive for admission to Haverford, is breezing through Guilford and doesn’t feel academically challenged. Although he has developed close relationships with the faculty in his department, he’s not terribly impressed with the academic chops of his classmates. D1 has similarly developed close relationships with faculty at Haverford, and she finds her classmates first-rate, which allows for the pace of the classes to be accelerated. Although she sometimes finds the academic workload and expectations formidable, she’s absolutely convinced she’s at the right place, and I’m convinced she’s getting a college education that equals or exceeds what she could expect at any of the nation’s finest colleges and universities.</p>
<p>Haverford’s not for everyone, and certainly some students would be better off at Guilford. But for the high-performing student who is looking for a rigorous, high-quality education in an intimate LAC setting, Haverford is hard to beat.</p>
<p>First thanks to everyone, the information and feedback given is just what I was hoping to get to further the decision making along should we be faced with that choice. Bclintonk, thank you for that personal narrative and that too got to the heart of it all for me. I see that she is happy with the academics, but does your D1 feel happy in the environment at Haverford? We have found everyone at these schools to be overwhelming warm in a good vibe kind of way for sure.</p>
<p>This board is a wonderment of all sorts of opinions and agendas, like a kaleidoscope. Its fun to read and sometimes comment. </p>
<p>I have nothing against Haverford. Its a fabulous school. But while its a Quaker school in heritage, it is an East Coast Liberal Arts College and is therefore more intense, competitive and preppy. For some kids, that is just perfect. </p>
<p>Guilford is a different school. It is also Quaker but its much more laid back and while they have excellent faculty and great academics, its student profile is not as selective. For some that is also perfect (and even a chance to be the big fish in a smaller pond, top of the class). Greensboro is not Philadelphia-environs. For others, its not their cup of tea. </p>
<p>My point is that it should be your son’s decision, as it is his life and his future. And barring a clearly poor decision for him (and I don’t see it here), he should be able to select which school he feels he will fit into best and excel. That may be Haverford. That may be Guilford. But he must own his own decision…the first major decision of his new young adult life, where he must accept the consequences…good, bad or indifferent.</p>
<p>People on CC are by and large prestige hounds. Kids and parents are often prestige hounds. There are lots of schools that aren’t rated in the top 50 of USNWR and are really good schools providing a lifetime of memories and great friends, coupled with a fabulous education. </p>
<p>What I would do or select is really irrelevant. My opinion (rhetorically) is relevant only in so far as you asked the question and we are providing feedback and hopefully helpful advice. </p>
<p>Not every student has the same matrix of factors on picking a school. For some financial constraints are paramount. (going instate public versus private, e.g.) For others it might be purely geographical. For some its cultural. For others its whatever pops into their heads at the decision point! LOL.</p>
<p>Guilford is much more hippyish and laid back. That may or may not comport with his idea of what college is about. No wrong choice here, just a different path to the same goal.</p>
<p>In short, I think Haverford is more conventional. Guilford is more artsy and creative. </p>
<p>And yes, I promote my alma mater and my kid’s alma mater like no tomorrow. LOL. (Not Haverford or Guilford). For all the right reasons.</p>
<p>Thanks again to the last poster, that was very helpful. I have a hippie laid back kid who is soooo not about prestige or competitiveness and prep. He is clear that it is his decision and I respect that and know he will make a very good choice. </p>
<p>But for me, buying a college is like buying a car…a huge investment…i test drove a lot and worried about getting the most bang for my buck…How that dovetails with where he will be happy is the big question. I fully realize in my old age that no one is wise enough by himself, and it does help (both of us) to get different perspectives and for that i am grateful.</p>
<p>^^^ I empathize with you. What we want for our kids may not always comport with their vision of the future. I totally understand. Been there, done that. Our jobs as parents is to be the rubber bumpers on the bumper cars, if you will, and hopefully steer them away from obvious disasters. But they ultimately have to learn from decisions and own it, even if that means falling or making mistakes. (which is different from catastrophic errors). Not that Guilford is a mistake, by any means. LOL.</p>
<p>On the other hand, some kids embrace diversity and being counter cultural and going in the opposite direction sometimes. Just because its preppy at Haverford doesnt mean he wouldnt thrive and be happy, in other words. But he just needs to be shown the choices and lay out the facts for him and let him decide, so long as you are okay with it and can afford it. </p>
<p>Getting “bang for the buck” is a relative term…depending on your ultimate goals and objectives. What does he want to do? Is graduate school in the picture in some discipline? </p>
<p>There are party animals at every school. The trick is to see if its pervasive and if its a problem for you kid…will they succumb to peer pressure? Or are they strong and independent and focused? </p>
<p>And finally, take a look at the programs he is interested in and compare them, faculty, resources etc. </p>
<p>“Happy”? Let’s just say she feels she is in absolutely the right place and has not the least regret about her choice. She’s probably not as happy day to day as I’d like her to be, but that’s mainly because she sets extremely high standards for herself, and that puts a lot of self-imposed pressure on her to perform to those high standards—i.e., nothing short of perfection will do. But that’s something she brought there with her. Haverford is not a highly competitive place; anything but. Academic standards and expectations are high and the workload is heavy, but it’s considered a violation of the Honor Code to discuss grades with other students. That’s intended to take the competitive pressure off, and in a way it does, but it also leaves D1 sometimes feeling a bit in the dark about where she stands, so she responds by gunning for the highest grade possible in every class. (I guess it would not be in the spirit of the Honor Code to tell you how she’s doing). She also finds it frustrating on occasion that she can’t share her academic successes or the occasional disappointing performance with even her closest friends. Fortunately for us, she responds to that frustration by calling home a lot. But apart from those things, she loves it. The faculty are very warm, caring, supportive, and generous with their time and talents, and the place has an air of quiet, understated, slightly quirky intellectualism that suits her perfectly. She’s also making some very close friends now, just very bright, talented, interesting, warm, and friendly people whose company she enjoys immensely when she carves enough time out of her studies to socialize. Now in her sophomore year, she seems to be finding a better balance, which I’ve been encouraging her to do.</p>
<p>I have to dispute the earlier poster who characterized Haverford as a “conventional” Northeastern LAC. Yes, it’s a bit preppy, and like a number of other Northeastern LACs it’s got top-notch academics. But there are also some things about it that are truly unique, and those are the things that drew D1 there. I think more than anything, there is a strong Quaker flavor to the culture that takes a number of different forms. One is just a deep commitment to peace and social justice, not as an afterthought or a special interest but as something that is understood to be a core part of the institution’s mission. Another is the Honor Code. Many colleges have academic Honor Codes; that part is no big deal. Haverford’s is different; it includes what they call a social Honor Code, which goes to how the students interact with each other, and how they interact with the larger Haverford community. It’s not something that’s imposed top-down by the administration; it’s debated, ratified, and frequently amended each year by a democratic assembly of the entire student body known as Plenary. It’s not a prescriptive set of rules; instead, it’s intended to be a set of ideals and guidelines for how a democratic community of equals can live and work together in trust, integrity, concern and mutual respect. At every turn it emphasizes collaboration over competition, and trust and personal responsibility over top-down supervision (to the point that all exams are self-scheduled and unproctored, and students are represented as equals in every major aspect of the College’s decision-making, with most decisions made by consensus). That’s hardly conventional; it bespeaks a kind of Quaker earnestness and idealism that some people find odd or even off-putting, but to my D1 it spoke to values that she holds dear. (We’re not Quakers, by the way, nor are most Haverford students, but the school does attract a lot of Quakers). I think in some ways the Haverford Honor Code is a good litmus test; people who are turned off by it really don’t belong there, and they wouldn’t be happy there. People who are inspired by it, like my D1, generally find Haverford to be just their kind of place. And by the way, the main essay prompt on Haverford’s Common App supplement is always about the Honor Code, which suggests just how much they value it, to the point that a good Honor Code essay can sometimes be the tipping factor in an admissions decision, while an essay that just doesn’t “get” the Honor Code might suggest Haverford is just not a good fit, even with excellent academic credentials. </p>
<p>bclintonk thank you thank, and I may be asking more in a few weeks hopefully! the honor code is the reason my son applied. That and the quaker philosophy of drive for social justice and just kindness to one another. It was the first school (after touring many) that after the tour we looked at each other and he said, “this is it.” He is a brilliant kid who I think would fit well there from what you say, as his high school is tremendously rigorous. But, we also got a lot of warm fuzzies and just good vibe from guilford, and it is an hour from us so that helps with expense so I don’t think it would be a wrong choice at all, and in my head I have sometimes thought it the better choice, but I keep my mouth shut :-). We’ll see, we are also waiting to hear from lots of others but these two have risen to the top for sure simply because of the Quaker philosophy…</p>
<p>bclinton: By “conventional” I meant the classic northeastern preppy, high academic standards, heavy workload and competitive environment. </p>
<p>I have no agenda for or against Haverford, and no dog in this fight. I get your passion for the school, because I am equally as passionate about my alma mater and my kid’s alma mater. </p>
<p>For the record, while I applaud Honor Codes, I dont know a school without one, and I also know a lot of schools where discussing grades is considered a faux pas…though really impossible to enforce. I can’t imagine anyone being hauled before the Honor Council and banished for telling someone how great (or poorly) they did in chemistry. Please. Also, Social Justice is a central tenent of Quakers and they are the original peaceniks. But Social Justice is also a central tenent of many other faiths and schools (Jesuits come to mind…its a big deal there too!). </p>
<p>As between two competing Quaker schools, its a matter of vibe and degree and makeup of the student body. I dont frankly know enough about the student body at either school in sufficient detail to outline that, and in any event, a student needs to visit BOTH schools and see for themselves. My agenda, if there is one, on this thread and all CC threads, is to be as un-elitist as I can be, supportive particularly for students who aren’t in the “help, I’ve got a 5.0 gpa and a 1580 SAT and can’t decide between Harvard, Stanford, MIT and Williams College…I’m so stressed…please help me!” threads. LOL. </p>
<p>If lauren’s kid visits Haverford and loves it and goes there? KUDOS to the kid! If its Guilford instead? Same KUDOS! (Its not about us, its about the kid.)</p>
<p>I work like the dickens to get kids to select my alma mater and kid’s alma mater…and get frustrated when we have a strong candidate who goes elsewhere. So I totally get the passion and efforts. But we should rejoice in the United States because we have so many colleges to choose from, and we aren’t in that ridiculous european or asian elevator shaft system…where your Bacc score (SAT for them) determines where you go, and there are very few choices and the rest are sent off to trade school. (Not that trade schools are bad either. WE would be well advised to spend more time doing that, than educating millions of philosphers and “teachers”…Phd’s who can’t tie their shoes.) </p>
<p>To Lauren: Crunch time is near. Been there, done that. Its fun…exciting…and frustrating. I remember it well with my kid 5 years ago…and the stress and tears it caused. Got it down to 2 schools…and up to the last minute, flipping the coin, and comparing and contrasting…and friendships were on the line…in the end we made the RIGHT decision…though the toughest. Really, really tough. But once you decide, go with it, buy the gear and close the book on the others and don’t look backwards. Embrace your decision and look forwards and upwards. Good luck.</p>
<p>I have not read all of the threads and hope I am not being redundant. I live in NC and my son was accepted to Guilford two years ago but chose not to go. He was also accepted to Earlham and was offered much more money. Guilford has a small endowment and simply cannot afford to be as generous. The scholarship my son was offered at Guilford covered about half of the expenses. The rest of the EFC was gapped with loans. Guilford and Earlham are very different in terms of the student population. Guilford is in a better town-more to do, Richmond Indiana is small and has seen better days. </p>
<p>The students at Guilford are a real mixed bag. The intellectual population is much smaller than the one at Earlham (and certainly Haverford). Guilford takes more risks with kids with marginal academic skills. Guilford is also not really associated with EMF, the summer music festival. Guilford rents the campus out to EMF. The music at Guilford is okay but not a super place for a music major (no orchestra, many teachers are adjuncts).
The regular faculty they have are great. There is a tremendous amount of substance use (as there is at all liberal-learning colleges). If your child does not have a group to readily identify with (such as a sports team, Bonner scholars, choral group), it is easy to get caught up in some of the foolishness.</p>
<p>I think Guilford is best for young persons who are cause-oriented, are past their substance abuse and partying phase. Two of my friends had kids that transferred out of Guilford after freshman year because of the heavy drinking, etc. Another has a daughter who is an athlete and is thriving. The success really will depend on your child’s temperament. If they are ready to work and not easily drawn into the wrong activities, they will thrive and have plenty of good faculty support.</p>
<p>All again great posts in the no one is wise enough by himself catagory Sovereigndebt, what is your/kids alma mater? I agree with the honor code at most schools but haverford takes it a few steps further in a way that my son really liked…I went to a jesuit college and the difference is huge in that regard.
Hornet, thank you for the feedback, it does seem guilford is limited in what they can offer compared to others, but the vibe felt really good to my kid so I am sure he will pick if he does not get into Haverford…</p>
<p>Hornet, also I meant to say I am confused that guildford being for kids beyond drinking, yet you said they transfered out because of the drinking?</p>
<p>It’s the “competitive environment” part that misses the mark. Haverford works very hard to ratchet down competition and to emphasize collaboration. Lots of schools try to do that, and some are more successful at it than others; I think Haverford does it more effectively than most on the high end of the academic scale. Academic standards and expectations are high, but the expectation is that everyone will perform at a high level by setting and meeting their own goals, not by out-competing others.</p>
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<p>Of course, as I said before, many schools, perhaps all, have academic Honor Codes. Not so many have what Haverford calls a “social Honor Code,” and although I’ve been around colleges and universities a long time, I have never encountered a school that makes its Honor Code so central to the school’s understanding of its mission, culture, and identity. Some people can’t stand that about Haverford, either because they think it’s much ado about nothing (you hear comments like “Every school has an Honor Code, that’s no big deal, but at Haverford they’re obsessive about it”) or because they think it is a bigger deal at Haverford and they find it oppressive (“I don’t want to be someplace where every interaction I ever have with anyone is going to be judged by some collective moral code”). People in either of those camps really shouldn’t attend Haverford because they’d be uncomfortable with the campus culture. People who respond positively to Haverford’s approach should give it serious consideration.</p>
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<p>“Banished”? Of course not. “Hauled before the Honor Council”? Extremely unlikely. But “confronted” by another student with a gentle and respectful reminder about Honor Code standards, which is the primary way conflicts are supposed to be resolved? My impression is that sort of thing does happen all the time at Haverford. Whether it would happen over someone talking about a grade, I don’t know; the Honor Code itself doesn’t say anything about that specifically (and in general the Honor Code is expressed in broad principles, not detailed rules), but my D1 says there’s a widely shared understanding among Haverford students that discussing one’s grades with other students is just inappropriate because it leads to a kind of competitiveness and pecking-order hierarchy of academic achievement that is inconsistent with the spirit of the Honor Code and the kind of community Haverford is trying to be, so depending on the circumstance, a “confrontation,” meaning an initiation of respectful dialogue about appropriate standards of behavior, is something that could happen. That’s how the vast majority of conflicts get resolved. It’s only in extreme cases that someone gets “hauled before the Honor Council.” That happens only rarely, but not because the Honor Code is on the back burner or ineffective; it’s because the Honor Code is front and center in students’ consciousness and operating as it is supposed to, with students taking it seriously as a guide to their own actions and their interactions with others, and confronting others privately and respectfully when a conflict arises or an action deemed inconsistent with the Honor Code is encountered. The Honor Council is not the primary means of enforcing the Honor Code; it’s a backstop for when self-compliance and dialogue fail, which to the credit of Haverford students is rarely. You may be among those who think this is not a big deal. Believe me, at Haverford they think it’s a big deal, and they take it very seriously.</p>
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<p>No doubt. You’ll find peace and social justice concerns on many campuses, and my D1 was attracted to them in proportion to how central that seemed to be to the school’s culture and self-understanding. At many schools it’s off in a corner somewhere, and in that corner it may be thriving, or it may be relatively small. At Haverford it was clearly hard-wired into the school’s Quaker DNA. That’s probably a trait it shares with other schools associated with the Quaker tradition, but it’s something that sets Haverford apart from many other Northeastern LACs.</p>
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