Guns on college campuses?

Parent Cafe
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<p>Take a look at this article: </p>

<p>Bills to let college professors, students carry guns stalls
Posted by Associated Press February 20, 2008 9:54 AM
Bills to let professors and some students carry guns on Alabama's college campuses got delayed today by a state Senate committee chairwoman, who said she's concerned more guns would pose greater safety problems.</p>

<p>Sen. Vivian Davis Figures, leader of the Senate Education Committee, had scheduled the two bills by Sen. Hank Erwin, R-Montevallo, for consideration at the committee's first meeting of the year today. But she announced at the start of the meeting that she had decided to delay them until a later date to allow the committee to hold a public hearing on the measures. </p>

<p>Figures, D-Mobile, said several people had called her with concerns and she felt the bills needed more discussion. She did not set a date for the public hearing. </p>

<p>"I am personally concerned because I don't want our campuses to turn into a wild West shootout," she said. </p>

<p>Figures said she's concerned that someone could get angry on campus, grab a gun from someone authorized to carry a weapon and start shooting. "I can see it becoming a bigger problem," she said. </p>

<p>Erwin said he was fine with Figures' decision to have a public hearing. </p>

<p>"It would be good for us to have a public debate on it," he said. </p>

<p>Colleges and universities generally ban guns on campus, except for law enforcement. </p>

<p>Erwin started working on his legislation after 32 students were killed by a gunman last April at Virginia Tech. His bills attracted more attention after a suicidal gunman killed five students at Northern Illinois University last week. </p>

<p>One of Erwin's bills would prohibit any state-supported college or university from banning professors from carrying firearms on campus. The professors would have to get the proper gun permits, though. </p>

<p>His other bill would allow students at state-supported colleges and universities to carry guns if they had the proper licenses, had no convictions, were in good standing with the university, completed a gun course approved by the college, and were participating in an ROTC military program.</p>

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<p>Does anyone have thoughts about this?</p>

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<p>Ok – D NOT applying to any Alabama schools – how about y’all?</p>

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<p>My brother, a sophomore at Washington and Lee, strongly supports guns on campus. I’ll be starting college next year, and I disagree with him.</p>

<p>Allowing professors to carry guns for safety reasons, in light of recent tragedies, is a reasonable compromise. I do not think the privilege should be extended to students. It would be all too easy, considering the abundance of alcohol on <em>most</em> campuses, for a gun to get into the hands of someone inexperienced and inebriated. Giving students access to guns would be a disaster.</p>

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<p>Guns on campuses is a great idea. I know everyone on cc is gonna go off on this one, but trust me.</p>

<p>It is a proven fact in cities/states where more law abiding citizens own guns, there is less crime.
For instance, Florida adopted a right-to-carry law in 1987. Between 1987 and 1996, these changes occurred: </p>

<p>homicide rate
-36% Florida</p>

<p>United States
-0.4%</p>

<p>firearm homicide rate
-37%Florida</p>

<p>United States
+15%</p>

<p>handgun homicide rate
-41%Florida</p>

<p>United States
+24%</p>

<p>Guns keep people safe. Its a fact. </p>

<p>If you want to go more into it, take the northern illinois or virginia tech shootings. Can you imagine if a law abiding student, who legally obtained a concealed carry permit, was sitting in class that day? The shooter would have been downed quicker than if the students had to wait on campus police, thus, less innocent blood is spilt.</p>

<p>some more facts on guns owned by law abiding citizens saving lives:</p>

<ul>
<li><p>Americans use firearms to defend themselves from criminals at least 764,000 times a year. This figure is the lowest among a group of 9 nationwide surveys done by organizations including Gallup and the Los Angeles Times. (16b)</p></li>
<li><p>In 1982, a survey of imprisoned criminals found that 34% of them had been “scared off, shot at, wounded or captured by an armed victim.” (16c)</p></li>
<li><p>Washington D.C. enacted a virtual ban on handguns in 1976. Between 1976 and 1991, Washington D.C.'s homicide rate rose 200%, while the U.S. rate rose 12%. (1)</p></li>
</ul>

<p>I agree we can’t just hand out guns to kids like candy. But owning guns is a right, not a priviledge or scarcity. The second ammendment was primarily written to provide the common man with a means to defend himself against tyranical government officials. However, we cannot deny the fact that guns are a safe and effective in lowering crime rates. Plus you can’t forget that its fun to hunt/sport shoot. :D</p>

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<p>
[QUOTE=esmitty01]

It is a proven fact in cities/states where more law abiding citizens own guns, there is less crime.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Showing that crime statistics decreased does not in any way constitute proving that guns stop homicides. For that, you would need to do a much more rigorous statistical analysis than simple numbers, show other possible contributing factors, and potentially do some ANOVA (analysis of variance) as well.</p>

<p>In this case, potentially it has something to do with the end of the massive crack epidemics in the 80s - Florida would have been a primary transfer point for the crack and cocaine, leading to high crime/homicide rates… less crack (the 80s was the high peak) less homicide. The guns, for all you know, could have been incidental.</p>

<p>Forum math is fun, but rarely rigorous, and rarely proves anything. Sorry.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE=esmitty01]

If you want to go more into it, take the northern illinois or virginia tech shootings. Can you imagine if a law abiding student, who legally obtained a concealed carry permit, was sitting in class that day? The shooter would have been downed quicker than if the students had to wait on campus police, thus, less innocent blood is spilt.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>And can you imagine if the shooter hadn’t had the obviously easy access to a gun in the first place? If he’d had to go through a rigorous background check and was rejected due to ongoing mental health issues? Or if he hadn’t been able to get a gun at all? That might’ve worked too.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE=esmitty01]

I agree we can’t just hand out guns to kids like candy. But owning guns is a right, not a priviledge or scarcity. The second ammendment was primarily written to provide the common man with a means to defend himself against tyranical government officials. However, we cannot deny the fact that guns are a safe and effective in lowering crime rates. Plus you can’t forget that its fun to hunt/sport shoot.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Many would disagree with you that owning guns is a right. Including many eminent constitutional scholars.</p>

<p>And as for crime rates: I deny that guns are a safe and effective way to lower crime rates. Oooh…</p>

<p>Last thing: provide a link to where you found those statistics and other facts about gun control. Not calling you a liar, but I want to know a few things like 1) were other factors controlled for in the Florida statistics, and 2) exactly which countries involve more people defending themselves with guns.</p>

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<p>No
No
No
No</p>

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<p>1 down, 1 to go --just because you don’t have a student interested in Alabama schools, it is my understanding that Alabama is not the only state considering this type of legislation. I think(no proof) that VA is considering similar legislation since the VA tech tragedy. Anyone know if I am right about this? And, keep in mind, just because Alabama may be considering this, if it indeed passes, other states may surely look into passing legislation like this. Something for us all to think about, in my opinion!</p>

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<p>“And can you imagine if the shooter hadn’t had the obviously easy access to a gun in the first place? If he’d had to go through a rigorous background check and was rejected due to ongoing mental health issues? Or if he hadn’t been able to get a gun at all? That might’ve worked too.”</p>

<p>Criminals will find guns no matter what. This is proven by the fact there is still gun violence in countries where no guns are legally aloud to be purchased.</p>

<p>link to the site (which is non biased and provides facts against gun ownership as well): [Just</a> Facts.com –> Gun Control](<a href=“http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp]Just”>Gun Control – Just Facts)
Its a credible site.</p>

<p>“Many would disagree with you that owning guns is a right. Including many eminent constitutional scholars.”
Many “eminent” scholars also strongly believe in marxism and that communism is the best system of government.</p>

<p>“I deny that guns are a safe and effective way to lower crime rates.”
you can’t just say you “deny” it. i gave facts. If you want to give facts that swing the other way (which im sure u can find) then do so. u can’t say u deny something with out backing it up.</p>

<p>“In this case, potentially it has something to do with the end of the massive crack epidemics in the 80s - Florida would have been a primary transfer point for the crack and cocaine, leading to high crime/homicide rates… less crack (the 80s was the high peak) less homicide. The guns, for all you know, could have been incidental.”</p>

<p>correction, florida is, and always has been, a major transfer point of all drugs. Not just in the 80’s. Cocaine was not “new” to florida shores in the 80’s.</p>

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<p>New York’s crime stats went down for the same period, and they have very strict gun laws.</p>

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<p>true, but NY has always been anti gun and very liberal. Plus i would venture to say that was only because of an economic improvement made in the state. Particularly NY city.</p>

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<p>Is everyone on CC liberal? Seems like i could be able to find one conservative (real american) on here.</p>

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<p>^^^^gratuitous and unnecessary
ad hominem attacks serve no useful purpose.</p>

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<p>haha i was jk on the “real american” thing. Sorry if it offended you.</p>

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<p>Guns on college campuses? I understand your debates about gun control–what about this particular type of legislation? I don’t think that it matters which state it is, either!</p>

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<p>My point in all my posts was, and is, that a law abiding citizen who has legally obtained a permit to carry should be aloud to carry anywhere.
Most states only allow people ages 21 and up to apply for a concealed carry permit. Just thought i’d add that.</p>

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<p>

</p>

<p>however, there are already several exceptions to the above (whether carrying quietly or loudly–sorry, I make typos, too). The ones that come immediately to mind include commercial aircraft, court rooms, government buildings…why not schools and colleges, also?</p>

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<p>
[QUOTE=esmitty01]

Criminals will find guns no matter what. This is proven by the fact there is still gun violence in countries where no guns are legally aloud to be purchased.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>So what? Why make it easier for them to find them? More importantly, the shooters in these cases have not been clearly connected with any criminal element; it is very legitimate to speculate that had they not had easy access to guns they would not have done what they did.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE=esmitty01]

Many “eminent” scholars also strongly believe in marxism and that communism is the best system of government.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>While I do not agree with those scholars’ point of view, I suspect that you would be unable to refute it, if you actually encountered one of those eminent scholars. Sorry, but not everywhere in the world does the line “yeah, but you like communism!” count as legitimate debate. In fact, nowhere except America.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE=esmitty01]

you can’t just say you “deny” it. i gave facts. If you want to give facts that swing the other way (which im sure u can find) then do so. u can’t say u deny something with out backing it up.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>My point was that it is entirely legitimate to disagree with you, and I somewhat do. In any case, you have given me no facts that rigorously show that the carry laws were the cause of the decrease in crime. I’m being a little pedantic, but you’ve shown correlation, not causation.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE=esmitty01]

correction, florida is, and always has been, a major transfer point of all drugs. Not just in the 80’s. Cocaine was not “new” to florida shores in the 80’s.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Either you are legitimately misunderstanding me or you’re being willfully obtuse. Crack was an epidemic in the 80s. Crack is made from cocaine. Cocaine comes through Florida. When crack use declined dramatically in the late 80s and early 90s, so too would transit volumes in Florida, and by extension, gun use by criminals, and as a result, gun homicide. Simple, no?</p>

<p>
[QUOTE=esmitty01]

true, but NY has always been anti gun and very liberal. Plus i would venture to say that was only because of an economic improvement made in the state. Particularly NY city.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>See, this is the thing. You can’t show some statistics about gun crime decline being correlated with allowing more gun use and say “it is proved that guns stop crime” and then turn around, and when given statistics showing the same crime decrease with stricter gun laws say “but that’s because of confounding changes like economics”. Do you see why that is? You are taking a statistic that may or may not be useful, and due to your prior point of view, ASSUMING it is proof of causation. All you’re doing here is showing us that you have heavy pre-existing bias… which we could’ve already figured out.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE=esmitty01]

My point in all my posts was, and is, that a law abiding citizen who has legally obtained a permit to carry should be aloud to carry anywhere.
Most states only allow people ages 21 and up to apply for a concealed carry permit. Just thought i’d add that.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The above is your opinion. You have yet to give any real justification for it, but you’re welcome to it.</p>

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<p>And, how strict is that process of obtaining a gun permit? Generally, not too strict. And, of course, the process of obtaining a gun permit varies from state to state, I believe. There is NO national process, I do not think. I am by no means an expert, as I do not own a gun nor am I interested in owning a gun. I am not saying that people should not own guns, either. Just not for me–</p>

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<p>The proposed bill is pretty limited in scope:</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>My guess is that there would be pretty strict regulations on how and where the guns could be kept, as well.</p>

<p>BTW, shooting/riflery is an NCAA sport, so obviously there are already a few college that permit gun ownership on campus.</p>