<p>I dont even know how you can claim that is not supportive evidence 1of42. The rest of the country experienced a rise in crime, whille also experiencing the same drop in crack cocaine (which btw, of course i know what crack is…lol). Florida didnt. Plus NY is a prime example because guns were a control. They were never permitted to carry in NY. They used to not be in Florida but then were permitted to.</p>
<p>Shooting riflery is not pertinant to this convo. The university owns (or stores) the guns and the students can only touch them under supervision.</p>
<p>All of those places have armed guards, who have guns, with the exception of airplanes, where everyone is checked to make sure they don’t have guns.</p>
<p>If someone wants to shoot into the intro bio/chem/econ lecture hall on campus, they will kill as many people as bullets they can fire. How many shots do you think someone who stands at the door of a lecture hall can fire in 3-5 minutes before police get there? Enough to kill a very large percentage of the people in the room.</p>
<p>When guns are not allowed, the people who follow the laws don’t have them, and the people who want to shoot everyone in the lecture hall still have them. If you allow guns, the sides are at least even. I would rather have someone in my lecture hall that could return fire than hoping I can hide behind a chair / other person until the police come.</p>
<p>Campus buildings are open, anyone can walk in. Hell, someone can make a pipe bomb and set it off in a lecture hall, and there’s nothing anyone could do about it.</p>
<p>“If someone wants to shoot into the intro bio/chem/econ lecture hall on campus, they will kill as many people as bullets they can fire. How many shots do you think someone who stands at the door of a lecture hall can fire in 3-5 minutes before police get there? Enough to kill a very large percentage of the people in the room.”
good point man. Plus airports have guys with guns, and on the airplane there is usually a air marshall (since 9/11 at least).</p>
<p>Illinois does not issue carry permits except to law enforcement and politicians…because politicians get more liberties than those they represent…</p>
<p>Right now, most schools and universities (and all of Illinois) are “Gun-free zones.” This means that citizens cannot carry firearms legally there. However, these regulations do not seem to stop criminals with murder on their minds. Basically, it only disarms law-abiding citizens who want to protect themselves and others. It does nothing to stop a criminal.</p>
<p>What most of these types of bills are proposing is that people who already have concealed carry permits are allowed to carry on campus. </p>
<p>People with CCW permits carry safely in MANY other locations. It does not make sense that they would suddenly lose all responsibility upon setting foot on campus. CCW holders have a 0.1% crime rate. That is one of the lowest rates of any group in the nation…and it includes minor offenses, unrelated to violence. If there is any group in society to trust with guns, it is this kind of person.</p>
<p>The “High Noon” and “Blood in the streets” predictions have been made many times, and they have never been true about CCW.</p>
<p>To use a couple quotes:
Gun control? It’s the best thing you can do for crooks and gangsters. I want you to have nothing. If I’m a bad guy, I’m always gonna have a gun. Safety locks? You’ll pull the trigger with a lock on, and I’ll pull the trigger. We’ll see who wins." – Sammy “The Bull” Gravano, Mafia hit man</p>
<p>“If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.” – The Dalai Lama</p>
<p>and of course
“If guns are illegal, only outlaws will have guns.”</p>
<p>Just as I told my DD when she was young to immediately leave the house if she saw a gun in a friend’s home, I would advise her to immediately leave any campus where guns were being casually carried around by any one without a criminal record.</p>
<p>But if they are concealed, how would she know? I can guarantee you that you have walked by so many people who were legally concealing a firearm, you would be surprised. (yes even in Commie-fornia… er, California - there are tens of thousands of private citizens with concealed carry permits in this state, not to mention the thousands of LEOs who don’t need a permit to carry - and the vast majority of them have a gun on them 24/7)</p>
<p>So since you can never know when those pesky law-abiding people are “casually carrying” around a gun, how can your daughter go anywhere “safely”?</p>
<p>This is just repeating the crazy rhetoric that the anti-gun crowd was shouting before Florida first implimented its “shall-issue” legislation in 1987. They said that blood would flow in the streets, and that every minor traffic dispute would turn into a gun battle. And yet… nothing happened. In fact, in the first decade of this new law, with over 350,000 permits issued, only 1 permit-holder was convicted of homicide.</p>
<p>There is no reason that a college campus would be any different, because you don’t change who gets the permits - you’re only changing the geographical location where they can legally carry.
Colorado already allows concealed carry on college campuses, and there haven’t been any problems.</p>
<p>Thanks Icarus, for the info about Colorado. Was not aware that a state obviously has (I assume) this type of legislation. I am very concerned about how this issue may impact college campuses.</p>
<p>Utah allows Concealed carry at all of its state universities. They are the only state to demand that state schools allow it.</p>
<p>The Washington Post made “blood in the streets” predictions in the 1960s. Currently 48 states allow some form of concealed carry. Illinois and Wisconsin do not. Wisconsin does allow open carry. When Florida first became a “Shall issue” state (meaning they had to issue permits to anyone who met the legal criteria and applied) the state police started tracking crimes by CCW holders. They eventually stopped, because they considered the number of crimes by CCW holders to be insignificant. They simply could not find enough crimes to make it worth tracking. The last time statistics were compiled nationally, CCW holders had a 0.1% crime rate. This rate means that they are some of the safest people in the US (from a police perspective).</p>
<p>I highly reccomend looking at [GunCite:</a> gun control and Second Amendment issues](<a href=“http://www.guncite.com%5DGunCite:”>http://www.guncite.com). It is a pro-gun site that compiles statistics and has links to many of the reports, studies, and arguments of both sides. It is one of the more comprehensive sites out there. </p>
<p>here is the Post’s prediction:
We are inclined to think that every firearm in the hands of anyone who is not a law enforcement officer constitutes an incitement to violence. Let’s come to our senses before the whole country starts shooting itself up on all its Main Streets in a delirious kind of High Noon.
— Washington Post, August 19, 1965</p>
<p>Then compare that to Florida’s numbers (as cited on the previous page)
homicide rate
-36% Florida
United States
-0.4%
firearm homicide rate
-37%Florida
United States
+15%
handgun homicide rate
-41%Florida
United States
+24%</p>
<p>Its not even a specific piece of legislation allowing ccw on campuses - it is merely a lack of college campuses being on the list of places one can’t carry. And come to think of it, it may only be Colorado State that allows CCW (I’d have to check), but Ramius is definitely right that all public campuses in Utah are good for CCW.</p>
<p>I’ll also add that CA (interestingly enough) has one of the best laws for where you can CCW (if you can get one, which is the hard part). Basically the only places off limits are federal property, courthouses, and airports. But you can carry pretty much anywhere else - any school, college, church, etc.</p>
<p>Hm…I didn’t know that.
Unfortunately, CA is a “may issue” state. Even if you are qualified, they can reject your application because they don’t like the idea of CCW (by “they” I mean the local law enforcement). This means that CA permit availability varies widely.</p>
<p>Exactly the problem - for those who don’t know, any police chief or sheriff in CA can decide who to issue permits to, based on their whim. Some issue quite liberally, while others simply don’t issue at all. Obviously, this had led to favoritism and corruption, with CCWs only being issued to political contributors or personal friends by some CLEOS (chief law enforcement officers). There are definitely some fourteenth amendment problems with CA’s system, in addition to the obvious second amendment issue.</p>
<p>Not mentioning that after graduation, having a certificate in self defense and firearms, would open more job opportunities. Like in the public safety industry. Same applies for teachers and professors that would like a change in career or as a second job.</p>
<p>If more people are killed with their own guns, then why allow colleges to make the decision to allow professors and students to carry guns on campuses? Sounds to me according to your post^, there would be an awful lot more people being injured by self-inflicted wounds with guns than the percentage of incidents (violence) over the past few years. The shooters involved in these cases for the most part, it appears, have all had some sort of history of mental instability. A college classroom fillled with students and a professor armed with guns just makes me think that yes, indeed, there will be some gun incidents, and not just violent ones!</p>
<p>Talking about inaccurate information, this little tidbit isn’t true. Some Utah universities are pushing to have CCW banned on campus, but they can’t because the state law preempts anything that the college tries to do.</p>
<p>I’d imagine that the San Fransisco University would like to ban CCW permit holders from carrying on their campus, but they can’t either due to the state law overruling their policies. Colleges can only set their own policies when state law allows them to.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>You make it sound like CSU sets the standards for training and who gets a permit - again, not true. The qualifications are set by the state.</p>
<p>I have mixed feelings about guns on campus. Essentially, I believe that a person with a concealed carry permit should be allowed to exercise that right anywhere. However, I also know that completely rational people do utterly stupid things when they are drunk or high, and I would fear that accidents may happen in that circumstance. OTOH, there have been some shootings, knife-assaults, rapes and crimes with weapons on campuses in my city…so clearly those people would have been better off to defend themselves than to become victims. Tough question with no easy answer.</p>
<p>Wait, what now? I can’t tell if this is sarcasm or not. Because I know several people who have defended themselves with a handgun that would beg to differ.</p>
Because I know several people who have defended themselves with a handgun that would beg to differ.</p>