Guns on college campuses?

Parent Cafe
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<p>People who commit crimes of passion with a gun might very well commit the same crime with another weapon if a gun was unavailable. Would it be better to be knifed to death over an insult or have your head bashed in with a hammer over a glass of water? Would a suicide by drugs or jumping off of a building be better than suicide by gun? </p>

<p>Since I am ambivilant about guns on campus, I must say that I am not ambivilant about guns in the home. The case where the two year old accidentally shot her mother is tragic. But who the heck keeps a loaded gun anywhere in the house? If you want a gun for self defense in your home, the best thing to do is to keep the ammo separate from the gun, preferably locked up. You can have a small safe under your bed (on the side farthest from the door) containing a gun and a separate loaded clip. Safe for kids, safest spot for you in the event of a break-in, and easily accessible if you need it. If you want a shotgun, at least keep the ammo in the safe.</p>

<p>Although I’m sure there are lots of examples, I remember a fairly recent occurance locally where a burgler broke into the home of an elderly man. He was a veteran and owned a gun, which he used to chase the burgler through the house and into the basement where the burgler hid until the police arrived. I guess the elderly gentleman has seen too much in his life to become a victim. Spunky old guy!</p>

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<p>1 down, 1 to go–I like security checkpoints! Forgot to mention that as a possiblity for preventing gun violence on campuses–it is not enough any more for dorms, building, etc on campuses to have the option of just swiping an id card–people slip into dorms all of the time. Good suggestion!</p>

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<p>"The case where the two year old accidentally shot her mother is tragic. But who the heck keeps a loaded gun anywhere in the house? "</p>

<p>“Boy, 6, Kills Mom During Target Practice: This was the tragic headline late in March, 2001, after a family went target shooting and reportedly allowed a boy to handle his father’s gun. According to the news story, the father had stepped away for a moment, and the mother was lying prone, shooting her own gun. The boy was attempting to reload the gun when he accidentally shot his mother in the head. She died instantly. The story said the boy had been shooting for two years, and that he normally shot a “kid’s gun.””
[Guns</a> & Kids](<a href=“http://www.saferchild.org/guns&.htm]Guns”>http://www.saferchild.org/guns&.htm)</p>

<p>"On May 19th, our then-13-year-old son, Jake Sheehan, accidentally shot and severely wounded his friend, Jared Davidson, in our Bothell home. While Jared is now healed and healthy, we are just beginning to put the puzzle pieces of our lives back together. But no matter how we try, we know it will never again be what we held as normal…</p>

<p>That one minute. For us it arrived on May 19 at 5:54 p.m. Our 13-year-old son, Jake, was in our home alone with his best friend, Jared. The minute started with Jake’s discovery of a .45 semiautomatic handgun in our bedroom closet. Jake’s father is a police officer and only a week before had informed Jake that over the summer he would properly train him on firearms.</p>

<p>But at the minute he found the gun Jake had no training. When he was sure the gun held no clip, he thought it was safe to show Jared. He was ignorant to the fact there could be a bullet resting in the chamber. He didn’t know that, in fact, there was a bullet in the chamber until the gun accidentally went off.</p>

<p>The bullet traveled through Jared’s liver and left lung and left him ripped and torn and fighting for his life in the middle of our kitchen floor. …"
[Search</a> Results | Seattle Times Newspaper](<a href=“http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/web/vortex/display?slug=4046787&date=20001008&query=gift+of+forgiveness]Search”>http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/web/vortex/display?slug=4046787&date=20001008&query=gift+of+forgiveness)</p>

<p>"n December 1997, Ann Marie Crowell (right) lost her son when he was accidentally shot by a friend with a loaded gun.</p>

<p>Christmas Eve parties were the tradition at the Crowell house, and Christmas 1997 was no different. As friends and family began to gather and celebrate the season, 12-year-old Brian Crowell walked over to his friends’ house until it was time for the family party to begin.</p>

<p>Unsupervised, Brian’s friend Matt took him to his Mother’s bedroom so he could show him her gun. The revolver, unlocked and hidden in a dresser drawer under her clothes, was kept in the house as an extra measure of protection.</p>

<p>Matt knew there were bullets in the gun, but he didn’t know the right way to unload the piece. After shaking it a few times, he was able to remove five of the six rounds.</p>

<p>Assuming the weapon was completely empty, Matt began squeezing the trigger. On the third pull, the overlooked round went off, and Brian was hit."
[Common</a> Sense About Kids and Guns: Family Stories](<a href=“http://www.kidsandguns.org/kitchen/familystories.asp]Common”>http://www.kidsandguns.org/kitchen/familystories.asp)</p>

<p>"Democrat ADLAI STEVENSON was governor of Illinois (1949-53) and presidential candidate against Dwight D. Eisenhower in 1952 and 1956, then ambassador to the United Nations under President John F. Kennedy. In 1913, just before his 13th birthday, Stevenson was handling a .22 caliber rifle at a Christmas party and the gun went off, killing 12-year-old Ruth Merwin. "
[Accidental</a> Killers: A Who2 Loop](<a href=“http://www.who2.com/accidentalkillers.html]Accidental”>http://www.who2.com/accidentalkillers.html)</p>

<p>Link to a list of similar stories:
[Common</a> Sense About Kids and Guns: Web Resources](<a href=“http://www.kidsandguns.org/study/web_resources.asp?category=Family+Stories]Common”>http://www.kidsandguns.org/study/web_resources.asp?category=Family+Stories)</p>

<p>"A gun in the home is 22 times more likely to be used in an unintentional shooting, than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense.
A gun in the home is 22 times more likely to be used in an unintentional shooting, a criminal assault or homicide, or an attempted or completed suicide than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense.’
Journal of Trauma, 1998
[Stop</a> Handgun Violence: The Facts](<a href=“http://www.stophandgunviolence.com/facts.asp]Stop”>http://www.stophandgunviolence.com/facts.asp)</p>

<p>The following also are from the stophangunviolence website:</p>

<p>"In the U.S, children under 15 commit suicide with guns at a rate of eleven times the rate of other countries combined.
For children under the age of 15, the rate of suicide in the United States is twice the rate of other counties. For suicides involving firearms, the rate was almost eleven times the rate of other countries combined.
U.S. Department of Justice, March 2000</p>

<p>Guns in the home are the primary source for firearms that teenagers use to kill themselves in the United States.
Studies show that guns in the home are the primary source for firearms that teenagers use to kill themselves.
Injury Prevention, 1999"</p>

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<p>About having unloaded guns in the house: Think about it: If you really think you needed to have guns in the house for protection in case of a break-in, how would having an unloaded gun in a difficult to access place help you?</p>

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<p>All of Northstarmom’s examples just show how irresponsible it is to keep a loaded gun in the home. What I was suggesting is that if one felt the need to keep a gun for protection, a small safe under the bed (or in the night stand or wherever) is a good option. If you heard your home being broken into, the best option is non-confrontation so crouching on the floor on the far side of your bed is a good choice. While you were there, it would take but a few seconds to punch in a 4 number code and to insert a loaded clip. Likewise, if a shotgun is preferred, you could take the same few seconds to remove the cartridge from the safe and insert it - you likely would only need one shot with a shotgun due to its greater stopping power. The strategy then would be to do nothing, let the intruder take whatever he wants, and only to use your weapon if he enters the bedroom and you were in personal danger. Still, I believe that you should never show a weapon if you are not ready to use it, as you may then become a victim of your own gun.</p>

<p>It is a highly controversial subject and there are excellent arguments on both sides.</p>

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<p>It most certainly is irresponsible to keep a loaded gun where it is accessible to young children. A bedside quick-access safe containing a loaded gun is the best option for people with young kids - they have some cool ones now with biometric unlocking. But your statement is too broad. I live with two adult roommates who know I have guns, and I keep a loaded handgun in my room at all times. Is that irresponsible?</p>

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<p>Why is there such a belief that having your gun taken away and used against you is a common thing? There is no reliable data to show that this happens with any frequency. Of couse it does happen, but I would argue that such events are due to either a lack of mental preparation to actually use a gun against someone or a tactical mistake like letting the person get too close to you.</p>

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<p>Positive control of firearms is important. Range safety and proper gun handling is also vitally important. The negligent discharges that Northstarmom pointed out, prove how tragic carelessness around guns can be. Much like chainsaws, guns are tools…and very dangerous if used incompetantly.</p>

<p>Is proper gun storage a major objection to CCW on campus? Are suicide and negligent discharges a major objection to it? </p>

<p>These are people who are allowed to carry in places like churches and supermarkets, why restrict them from protecting themselves at schools (where many mass shootings occur)?</p>

<p>Generally speaking, those who carry maintain control of their weapons, as they are holstered unless a life-threatening situation develops. About the only way I can think of to negligently discharge a pistol involves handling it…which would not occur in public.</p>

<p>As for the argument of CCW holders accidentally shooting bystanders, it is possible but statistically not likely. The chaos of a mass shooting is very unpredictable. However, the average defensive shooting involves 3 rounds being fired. CCW holders statistically miss LESS than LEOs. Many LEO shootings involve multiple magazines being completely used/wasted (i.e. upward of 20 rounds fired).</p>

<p>Not that it proves anything (as it falls under anecdotes and availability bias), but I can recall several police shootings where officers fired upwards of 40 rounds (and hit their target 1 or 2 times), but I have never heard of a CCW holder doing the same thing.</p>

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<p>To address the issue of sheep and sheepdogs, once again. I do not believe that someone is a sheep because they do not carry. The spectrum of vigiliance and capablity is not binary. Many “sheepdogs” have excellent situational awareness and are unarmed or armed with something other than a handgun. If a person is trained in martial arts, for example, they can function as sheepdogs in a variety of dangerous situations. Many of these people choose to arm themselves with a firearm, as it is the best available tool for them. I know several people who are VERY proficient at martial arts, but cannot shoot well. For them, CCW would not be a significant advantage. Martial arts can actually be more effective inside 21 feet than firearms…but it really depends on the individual and circumstances. Others, cannot neccessarily stop an attacker though physical force (stories of older people confronting young, strong thugs comes to mind). Some people have not mastered hand-to-hand techniques, but have ample capability to shoot. I think we should let these people decide what tool is best suited to them.</p>

<p>EDIT: I was also discussing disarming moves against an attacker with a drawn firearm. They are extremely risky, and should only be used as a last act of despiration in most circumstances. The risk involved in trying to take the gun from someone pointing it directly at you is VERY high. You are playing against the odds that your complex, full-body movement will take less time than them reacting and jerking their finger. Of course it has worked, but it is generally not a good idea…unless you know your death is imminent.</p>

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<p>“why restrict them from protecting themselves at schools (where many mass shootings occur)?”</p>

<p>There are not “many” mass shootings at schools. Given the number of educational institutions in this country, mass shootings are rare.</p>

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<p>I realize that these things don’t happy very often. But, guns should not be on college campuses. In wake of NIU, I continue to say no.</p>

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<p>Icarus, the mental preparedness thing that you mentioned was exactly my point. People should not attempt to threaten to use a gun if they really cannot bring themselves to do it.</p>

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<p>There are not many school shootings, nor are there many murders. However, the possibility clearly exists. I view allowing those with can legally carry to legally carry at campuses as a sensible thing. If they carry firearms responsibly in their day-to-day lives, I don’t see how they would suddenly be different by the fact that the building they are in is part of a college. Frankly, “gun-free zones” are only gun-free to law abiding citizens. If someone is going to go on a rampage, the fact that the area is “gun-free” will NEVER hinder them. It does hinder those who carry for protection.</p>

<p>I guess that is the problem with this debate. We are arguing about statistically insignificant numbers of citizens stopping a statistically insignificant crime. There are also statistically insignificant risks associated with such plans. As much as I like to argue statistics, the odds of ever “needing” a gun to stop a rampage are as likely as me ever being a victim of one. However, I like to be prepared for unlikely possibilities, as much as is reasonably possible. It is apparent that there are others who consider training and moderate expense to be a reasonable expenditure to guard against such a situation (as well as more likely, but equally dangerous situations like assaults, rapes, and murders).</p>

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<p>I am talking about the segment of the population that ALREADY HAS concealed weapons. There are responsible college students who regularly carry elsewhere, but are prohibited to carry on campus.</p>

<p>I am not arguing that we should arm EVERYONE. There are many people who are not responsible enough to safely use firearms. Fortunately, the vast majority of these people don’t want to use firearms. It is a largely self-regulating group that possesses CCW permits.</p>

<p>Restricting 100% of CCW holders because 30% of college students are on psychiatric medication does not make sense. We are talking about largely different groups.</p>

<p>I am part of the “college student” group. Yet, I do not drink. I do not do illegal drugs. I not on prescription drugs. Yet, you are arguing that I should be restricted because other people do these things.</p>

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<p>When I was talking with a college student yesterday, she mentioned being held up at gunpoint last year. She was sitting in her car in her apartment complex (in a nice neighborhood in town) talking on her cellphone, when she was startled by a loud knock on her window. She turned, and saw a teen pointing a gun at her.</p>

<p>“Give it up,” he said indicating he wanted her purse, which she gave to him. Then, he ran away.</p>

<p>If she had been armed, there wouldn’t have been time to take out a weapon. If she had had a gun in her purse, all that would have resulted would have been that a criminal would have gotten the gun.</p>

<p>By the way, three people whom I knew have been shot to death.</p>

<p>When I was in grad school at GWU in D.C., a fellow student who was working as a cab driver was shot in the back of the head by a passenger.</p>

<p>One of my profs was carjacked and killed.</p>

<p>And, when I lived in Detroit, a lawyer whom I know heard someone arguing with the receptionist in his law office. He went downstairs to try to calm things down, and the arguer pulled out a gun and killed him.</p>

<p>I don’t see any evidence that having a gun would have saved any of these people. In the last example, how comfortable would any of us be in a world in which people pulled out guns just because they heard a loud argument?</p>

<p>As for the idea that “responsible students” on campus should be able to carry guns on campus: How could anyone determine who is “responsible?” Plenty of students (and other people) use drugs, get drunk, and have hot tempers or are impulsive. Most such people have never been arrested or run into other difficulties that could be tracked. Also, consider the judgment of students who are sleep deprived and stressed as occurs during exam periods. </p>

<p>And, has anyone ever thought of the repercussions of armed students at frat parties and football games?</p>

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<p>Thank you Northstarmom–who makes the decisions as to whether someone is mentally stable to carry a firearm? As I mentioned earlier, college campuses are primarily made up of 18-21 year olds. Yes, I know that there are plenty of 18-21 year olds in the military that operate guns, BUT, I think we can all agree that they have had the training and mental assessments to be where they are and I truly appreciate what they do. However, I doubt that your average college student has had the training to operate a gun–Do permits require this? Is a mental evaluation needed to obtain a permit? Gun laws/permits vary too widely from state to state.</p>

<p>As I stated earlier, I am very concerned with this issue of college students being sanctioned by state gov’ts to carry guns legally on campus. You can believe that if the State of Alabama is looking into this type of legislation there will be many more to follow. A band-aid is not going to fix the problem on our college campuses and too many in state legislatures are quick to pass laws without in-depth discussion. I have already e-mailed the State Senator for the State of Alabama regarding this issue–please consider voicing your opinions as well.</p>

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<p>“Guns keep people safe. Its a fact.”</p>

<p>I think they should issue guns to every entering student, and require them to have concealed weapons permits. And, if the student can’t afford it, the cost of the gun should be part of financial aid. It is dangerous for some students to have guns and others not to.</p>

<p>Then they will all be safer.</p>

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<p>Why are we arguing that the average college student is not good enough to carry on campus? The debate is not about the “average” college student. It is about students who ALREADY have CCW permits. These students have gone though the process of obtaining the permit already. The government feels that they are responsible enough to be entrusted to carry firearms. Denying them the ability to carry on campus is like saying a pilot can fly anywhere, except over Iowa.</p>

<p>Kbaloney, by your standard, everyone who has had a friend die probably suffers from PTSD, and is unfit to control a firearm…I’m no expert, but that sounds a little rediculous to me.</p>

<p>Do you seriously believe that SWAT teams would attempt to talk down a shooter while the shooter was firing at people? Of course they will attempt to command the shooter to stop, but if the shooter keeps firing they will not try again. This is exactly like the New Life shooting. The CCW holder, commanded the shooter to surrender. When the shooter kept advancing and firing, she shot and incapacitated him. He then killed himself.</p>

<p>It is fairly easy to assess the basics of a mass shooting. The person who randomly opened fire on a crowd is the bad guy, and he is murdering people. The sensible options are to flee, find cover, or fight back. While non-confrontational methods are always preferable, that is not very likely when the person is trying to kill you. Non-lethal means are also philosphically better than using deadly force. Unfortunately, the current non-lethal tools are not as effective in immediately stopping the threat as firearms are. I would love it if the phaser from science fiction movies was available!</p>

<p>Northstarmom, I am not arguing that firearms are the panacea against violent crime. Sometimes, people don’t really have a chance. Other times, drawing a gun will only worsen the situation. If someone only wants your wallet or jewelry, that is an acceptible loss. Until the risk of the mugger seriously injuring or killing you outweighs the risk of defending yourself against an armed opponent with a drawn weapon (a very high risk), you should not antagonize them.</p>

<p>As for determining who is responsible, most states require background checks, classroom training, range training, along with forms and fees before they will issue a CCW permit (Alaska and Vermont being exceptions). This has proven to be a good system, as CCW holders have a much lower crime rate than the general population.</p>

<p>CCW holders are not allowed use their weapons over an argument. They must be in reasonable fear of serious bodily harm or death to themselves or another, before they can legally act. This is extensively covered in CCW classes.</p>

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Haha! I know you were kidding, but think about this: if all students were known to be armed, one wacko individual would think twice before drawing a weapon. It’s kind of like the three-way stand-offs in westerns or on police shows. They bad guy might get to shoot one person, but he certainly is going to get shot a second later. But seriously, a person who wants to orchestrate a mass killing knows that he will most likely be unchallanged in a school or a church. Ever see any massacre attempts in a police station?</p>

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<p>No, I don’t think crazed murderers are rational. I was only responding to mini’s tongue-in-cheek post that all students should be required to carry a gun. (notice the “haha” part). Hey, let’s arm all airline passengers while we’re at it! (Well, we have air marshalls for that now). I only picked police stations because it is a place where a gunman would be shot. You can choose some other place, like an NRA convention? I have not studied mass shootings, although maybe raimius has. ** I do, however, think that a person wishing to make a violent statement will choose to do so in a place where he can maintain control and power unchallanged, which at this time can easily be accomplished in a school or church setting. **</p>

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<p>Sorry, but this is completely ludicrous. If I were to walk into my local police department and immediately start shooting, I could probably get off at least a few shots before the police return fire. People don’t do this because it is immediate and unquestionable suicide (not the goal of most mass shooters)</p>

<p>Why then aren’t there any mass shootings at firing ranges or gun shows or gun stores? It seems fairly obvious that these too don’t happen because of the highly armed population in those places.</p>

<p>Just because the decision to commit a mass shooting isn’t rational doesn’t mean that those people aren’t capable of any rational thought. Most criminals and mass shooters aren’t completely stupid, in that they at least want to accomplish their goals. Someone wanting to shoot as many people as possible before dying knows that they have a much better chance of accomplishing that goal in a place where no one will be armed and able to quickly stop them. What better place than a “gun-free zone”??</p>

<p>This is why you see mass shootings in post offices, schools, etc.</p>

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<p>“Why are we arguing that the average college student is not good enough to carry on campus? The debate is not about the “average” college student. It is about students who ALREADY have CCW permits. These students have gone though the process of obtaining the permit already. The government feels that they are responsible enough to be entrusted to carry firearms. Denying them the ability to carry on campus is like saying a pilot can fly anywhere, except over Iowa.”</p>

<p>Just because a person qualifies for a gun permit doesn’t mean that they are responsible enough to be entrusted to carry firearms. It’s possible to get a CCW permit if you take a class in firearm safety, haven’t had felony convictions or misdemeanor convictions for violence, and haven’t been subject to involuntary commitment for mental illness. There also are several other things that – depending on the state – are required.</p>

<p>However, there’s no way that the regulations can weed out the many students who regularly party to drunkenness, use drugs, have anger and impulse control problems, committed felonies and violent crimes, but haven’t gotten caught yet, etc. Just because a person qualifies for a CCW permit doesn’t mean that they can carry a gun safely.</p>

<p>"The gun lobby claims that only law-abiding citizens get CCW permits. But an August 2000 study by the Violence Policy Center revealed that, from January 1996 through April 2000, the arrest rate for weapon-related offenses among Texas concealed handgun license holders was 66% higher than that of the general adult population of Texas. CCW license holders are committing crimes - including murder, rape, assault and burglary - but because the gun lobby makes it difficult if not impossible for the public to determine if a shooter has a CCW license in most states, the full story has not yet been told.</p>

<p>Law-abiding citizens with the best intentions underestimate how hard it is to use a gun for self-defense successfully. Even highly-trained police officers lose control of their handguns; according to the FBI, 5 out of 41 law enforcement officers (12%) killed by gunfire in the line of duty in 1999 were killed by an adversary with the officer’s own service weapon. And police officers know that the very sight of a gun can escalate a situation, so that instead of simply losing your wallet, you can lose your life. That’s why almost every major law enforcement organization - including the International Brotherhood of Police Officers and the International Association of Chiefs of Police - opposes the weakening of CCW laws. (See Law Enforcement Relations)</p>

<p>An armed society is an at-risk society. Many permit holders have been stripped of their permits for criminal behavior - and even law-abiding people get angry, drunk, careless or confused, make mistakes, and escalate minor arguments into deadly gun-play. "
[Brady</a> Campaign - Carrying Concealed Weapons](<a href=“Homepage | Brady United”>Homepage | Brady United)</p>