Harvard and UNC Sued Over Their Admission Policies

<p>UNC accepts only 18% out of state. And Pennylane makes a good point. Holisitic reviews allow the school to build its class they way they feel it best. Its unfortunate if someone doesnt like it. But it is their right.</p>

<p><a href=“http://news.yahoo.com/asian-american-activists-refusing-join-fight-against-affirmative-005348217.html”>http://news.yahoo.com/asian-american-activists-refusing-join-fight-against-affirmative-005348217.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Interesting article on the topic!</p>

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<p>Colleges accept federal money in the form of Pell grants and research grants, and so the government can impose restrictions on its admissions policies if it chooses to.</p>

<p>If schools do not take federal money, then I might agree with you. However, a counter argument could be made even in that case. Does a restaurant owner have the right to say that no people of a certain race are allowed, or to say that only a certain percentage are allowed so that they have the right mix of customers? The courts have clearly spoken on that issue.</p>

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<p>400+ above 1400 is an extremely low bar. We know that the SAT has a standard deviation of about 360 points, and one standard deviation puts a person at about the 85th percentile. 400 points above the mean may put the student in the top 10% of the school, perhaps qualifying him or her for automatic admission for the state flagship. 500 points above the mean may put the student in the top 5%, which is hardly exclusive territory.</p>

<p>This is comparing apples and oranges. </p>

<p>A restaurant can be discriminatory on some aspects.When a customer walks into a restaurant, the only thing you know about him is what he looks like and how he behaves. There are requirements for eating in a restaurant such as behaving in public, adhering to some kind of dress standards ( some restaurants require shirts and shoes). A restaurant owner has the right to ask a client to leave if he walks in half naked, is disruptive, but he can not refuse to serve a customer on the basis of race. </p>

<p>Entry to college also has some aspects where it is legal to be discriminatory. A college has much more information about an applicant than a restaurant owner. Colleges can require a certain level of academic achievement and also select according to other achievements and talents. </p>

<p>“perhaps qualifying him or her for automatic admission for the state flagship.”</p>

<p>UNC doesn’t have automatic admission, but it is the state flagship and would likely admit the top students from all NC counties. </p>

<p>“400+ above 1400 is an extremely low bar.”</p>

<p>Only by the bar of looking for students with the very top numbers and at assuming all other factors are the same , but numbers are only one aspect of an applicant. For an applicant with few opportunities, that may be a greater achievement than for an applicant with many opportunities. </p>

<p>Organizations that have more information about members or potential members than a restaurant face similar prohibitions about discrimination. Here is a WSJ article that describes a country club that sought to have the right mix of Christians and Jews, and the Supreme Court ruling on the case:</p>

<p><a href=“Private Clubs That Aren't Private Under the Law - WSJ”>http://online.wsj.com/articles/SB124588111858449559&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>No point in continuing to argue. The case will be settled one way or another. </p>

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<p>In case it wasn’t clear, this student might just clear the top 10% in his or own high school. He or she would be mid-pack in terms of students applying to <em>all</em> four colleges, not just the selective ones. </p>

<p>Aside from all this, it surprises me that nobody considers whether admitting this student to UNC or Harvard is good for the student or not. Even supposing that the student is really bright, getting only a 1900 on the SAT means that there was tremendous lack of preparation for the material and rigor of a competitive college. If admitted to Harvard, this student would compete with some classmates that won national or international awards in history, science or math. But at least Harvard can provide tremendous coaching to help students in trouble. State flagships cannot, which is why so many non-Asian minorities that were admitted to Berkeley prior to their policy change dropped out. Now graduation rates for non-Asian minorities at Berkeley are much higher.</p>

<p>The lack of good education for some minorities in the US is a very real problem. It is a combination of poor teaching in the areas where these students predominantly live, and the frequent lack of a loving two parent household that encourages education. These disadvantages accumulate from the early years through senior year in high school. It cannot be fixed at the stroke of a pen during college admission. </p>

<p>I’m aware of all this. I think the point missing is assuming the college admissions offices don’t know what they are doing. They’ve been reading applications and selecting students for years, tracking their progress and graduation rates. The other point missing is assuming that race has a large role in this. If it was, then colleges would still be concerned about their graduation rates. These colleges have higher than average graduation rates, which tells me they know what they are doing. </p>

<p>But there isn’t any point in arguing. The colleges will either prove that their method of admission is legal or it will be found that is it not. </p>

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<p>If that is so, don’t ask the applicants about their race.</p>

<p>Actually, I don’t have a very high opinion of college admissions people. Most of them would not qualify for admission in a state flagship, much less a highly selective school. Only sometimes do they have actual graduates from the school helping with admissions and rarely do they have a graduate from the school heading up admissions. </p>

<p>I saw a bit of this weakness first hand when I was at MIT and afterwards when I helped interview prospective students. This was during the time of Marilee Jones, but before she resigned in disgrace for having lied about her degree. </p>

<p>Another really good look into how flawed admissions committees can be is the book The Gatekeepers, which described the admissions process at Wesleyan. There are a few examples in there of how Wesleyan sought out minority candidates with weak academics but I think in every case the admitted student couldn’t cut it at Wesleyan. </p>

<p>Finally, I believe that most admissions staff people are left leaning. This lends a bias, and when coupled with the fact that most are departments are weak when it comes to statistical analysis, it can cause the biases to run uncorrected. So yes, I believe that oversight is not only useful, but necessary. </p>

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<p>It is dangerous to asume a guy eating McD burgers all his life knows what he is doing.</p>

<p>Colleges that receive federal funds in the form of Pell Grants and student loans are required to ask students about race. This is to provide basic accountability. Students are not required to answer, however.</p>

<p>Maybe it will be decided to do that. </p>

<p>Even if there was a spread sheet that tracked applicants grades and scores, how would someone measure the impact of essays, guidance counselor and teacher recommendations, and EC’s. Would an applicant with a 2400 SAT be more qualified than one with a 2200, if the 2400 had bad recommendations and the 2200 had good ones? That isn’t a cut and dry situation to answer and it could be debated both ways.</p>

<p>Like I said before, arguing is out of our hands, it will be up to the legal system, so we can wait and see what is decided. </p>

<p>Why are you murking the waters discussing SAT scores and bad recommendations, when the issue at hand is race based admissions where Asians are held to a certain percent of admitted students. It doesn’t happen by accident.</p>

<p>Edward Blums lawsuit has more to do with ending AA than helping Asian students gain admissions to Harvard. </p>

<p>The suit, however, is getting strong pushback from Asian American student and civil rights organizations, who suspect that Students for Fair Admissions—and its parent organization, Project for Fair Representation, which is run by activist Edward Blum—are more interested in ending affirmative action than making sure Asian American students get equal treatment in college admissions. The lawsuit inspired a Twitter hashtag, #IAmNotYourWedge, and a petition condemning the suit as a thinly veiled conservative ploy.</p>

<p>“Conservatives desperate to shore up a shrinking, aging, mostly white base are hoping to sink their hooks into anxious Asian American parents who, like all parents, just want the best opportunities for their kids,” Cynthia Liu, education advocate and founder of the K-12 News Network, said in an email interview. “This lawsuit plays on fears, falsehoods, and scarcity-driven and blinkered thinking.”</p>

<p>At best, “the suit is largely conjecture, and based on the bizarre presumption that high standardized test scores entitles an applicant to admission to an elite university.”</p>

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<p>Statistics do not work at the micro level. For any particular student, there can be circumstances that legitimately favor one with lower stats than with higher stats.</p>

<p>However, statistics work very powerfully at the macro level. You would be hard pressed to make the case that among 30000 applicants, that the ones with higher stats and poor recommendations belonged predominantly to certain races. In fact, it would be laughable to say so. </p>

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<p>At this point, it is hard to say what the actual consensus is. People tend to lock on to views that they like, follow it, and reject other views. It is known as confirmation bias. Both you and I may be examples of it, on opposite sides. </p>

<p>Not murking the waters, just making the point that any student regardless of race is admitted on many factors and how hard it will be to prove someone was admitted or denied according to race alone. </p>

<p>The admission process isn’t decided on race alone. Take it out of the equation, and you still might find that some students are admitted with lower grades and scores than some other applicants. </p>

<p>Another poster suggested a spread sheet of scores, GPA, and I suppose race to prove the merit of the lawsuit. I guess what those of you who are assuming that Harvard and UNC admissions is incompetent want an admission process based only on scores and grades, not other attributes. </p>

<p>Well, maybe you’ll get it.</p>