Harvard EA or Princeton ED?!

Colleges and Universities A-Z Harvard University
1

<p>Hi.
I really need some help on deciding between those two.
I live in New Zealand, so I can't exactly visit them and see the 'fit' right now.
I am planning on studying maths and physics.
Can people please compare and contrast those two universities?
Like academics, student to faculty ratio and the class sizes, their core curriculums, flexibility between those two departments, friendliness of the student body, dorms, activities, night/social life, surrounding city/town, safety, financial aid, weather, prestige, vibe/atmosphere, etc?</p>

<p>Thanks a lot.
Kind regards
Eric</p>

2

<p>The "virtual tour" site:
<a href="http://www.news.harvard.edu/tour/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.news.harvard.edu/tour/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>About "real" tours:
<a href="http://www.admissions.college.harva.../parents/visit/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.admissions.college.harva.../parents/visit/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>"Frequently asked questions":
<a href="http://www.harvard.edu/siteguide/faqs/index.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.harvard.edu/siteguide/faqs/index.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Harvard "Fact Book":
<a href="http://vpf-web.harvard.edu/factbook/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://vpf-web.harvard.edu/factbook/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The undergraduate Student Handbook:
<a href="http://www.registrar.fas.harvard.edu/handbooks/student/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.registrar.fas.harvard.edu/handbooks/student/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Links to maps:
<a href="http://www.harvard.edu/community/transportation.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.harvard.edu/community/transportation.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

3

<p>If you can't decide, definitely Harvard EA, because then you still have the option of applying to Princeton if you get into Harvard.</p>

4

<p>^ this is a good point.</p>

5

<p>"If you can't decide, definitely Harvard EA, because then you still have the option of applying to Princeton if you get into Harvard."</p>

<p>you still have the option of applying to princeton, but your odds of admission fall to about 1/4 the already-low early odds.</p>

6

<p>For the Class of 2009 at Harvard, the admit rate for those applying early was 21%, while the admit rate for those applying RD was 6.4%. (Actually, the RD admit rate was lower, approximately 5.5%, when you take into account that the "regular" pool also included about 3,000 deferred SCEA applicants.</p>

<p>Moral of the story: if you want to apply to any elite, apply EARLY to maximize your odds of admission.</p>

7

<p>Erick:</p>

<p>My S considered both Princeton and Harvard; he's ended up at Harvard, but he has very good friends attending Princeton and who are very happy there. He really liked the math and physics departments at Princeton and had a great conversation with the director of undergraduate studies there. The math department at Princeton is considerably smaller than at Harvard. It makes great efforts to reach out to undergraduates; for example, undergraduates are invited to the daily departmental tea. When my S visited, he was taken to the tea by the DUS and he saw a couple of undergraduates talking to John Conway.
He chose Harvard over Princeton, however, for a number of reasons. One is that Princeton does not allow double concentrations (my S wants to do a combined concentration in math and physics). I gather that this can be circumvented, but it factored in my S's decision. Other considerations were non-academic. He prefers Cambridge/Boston's more urban setting than Princeton's suburban one. He had reservations about the eating clubs. He was hosted by a Physics major who was rather negative about the drinking at Princeton, which, according to his host, starts on Thursday. While I have no doubt that a lot of drinking happens at Harvard, it may not be so visible as in a place like Princeton.
But it is a matter of personal preference.<br>
At both places, the faculty and the students are top-rate. So in the end, I think it really comes down to where you think you might be more comfortable: a smaller research university in a suburban setting with a strong undergraduate focus or a larger, more urban research university. </p>

<p>Hope this helps.</p>

8

<p>Thanks marite.</p>

<p>Then would you say that Princeton undergraduate students actually get more attention than those in Harvard?
And how much of a 'city' is Boston and how much of a 'town' is Princeton?</p>

<p>Should I also worry about the fact that applying ED to Princeton might result in them giving me less financial aid since I am committed to go?</p>

9

<p>Both Princeton and Harvard gave very generous financial aid, so that should not be a consideration. You won't get lower finaid at Princeton just because you applied ED and are committed to it.</p>

<p>Harvard has a reputation for not being as student-friendly as Princeton and many other schools, but it's hard to know how to change the climate. Students, including my own S, don't particularly care to come to profs' office hours. He, however, just received an invitation from a Physics prof who is the Director of Undergraduate Studies to attend a gathering of physics students this sunday evening. He also likes all his profs. I also talked to a student who recalls taking a class with hundreds of other students in her freshman year. She did not mind the size because the prof was "awesome."</p>

<p>Harvard does not seem as tight-knit as Yale or Princeton because H students are drawn into so many different activities, some of which involve going off-campus (tutoring immigrant kids in poorer Boston neighborhoods for example).</p>

<p>Princeton is located in a very pretty, affluent town, about one hour from NYC by train. Its population is about 17,000 (presumably not counting the students). The university is really the heart of the town. Harvard's role in Cambridge is not quite so central. Cambridge is larger (over 100,000) and there are a few other universities besides it and MIT. Furthermore, it is across the river from Boston and its universities (BU, Northeastern, Suffolk) and there are many suburban universities and colleges as well.</p>

<p>I assume the climate is milder in Princeton than in Cambridge, if that is a factor. Really, it is a matter of personal preference. My S would have been very happy to attend Princeton even though, in the end, he did not apply, having decided to apply SCEA at Harvard.</p>

10

<p>Thanks Marite.
Leaning towards Princeton...
Hmm, would chucking in my interests in philosophy and music help at all, or are they both pretty good in those areas too?
(Music: I am not really really good, but I'd like to play and learn a little if I could. I play the piano, I am sitting an exam that is about the level of Dip.ABRSM, which is the diploma above Grade 8, in a few months, and I also did a little bit of theory and composition. But it is more of a hobby.)</p>

<p>Regards
Eric</p>

11

<p>They're both pretty good. In fact, excellent. My S has a friend who heads the Harvard Early Music Ensemble and produces operas. A dormmate of his is a cellist who gets to meet with Yo-Yo Ma every few days (he and his Silk Road Ensemble are in residence for the next few years). And of course, the Boston music scene is pretty lively. I am sure that Princeton has lots of concerts and opportunities for music-making though they may not be as abundant as in the Boston/Cambridge area (but you can go into NYC for big concerts). If you click on <a href="http://www.prefrosh.net%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.prefrosh.net&lt;/a>, you will get a lot of information about Harvard that was gathered by undergraduates there.</p>

12

<p>Thanks marite and everyone.</p>

<p>It comes down to this.
From all I can see, from their video to the survey that Princeton students are generally more satisfied than Harvard students, from Princeton to Cambridge/Boston, and all else, I think I prefer Princeton.
So as of now, if I was admitted to both, I would choose Princeton.
However, of course I don't know.
These things are pretty hard to get a feel of through just some photos and websites.
So if I was very confident that I'll get into both of these, then it'd only make sense to apply early to Harvard and regular to Princeton, then visit them next year and finally decide.
But of course I am not confident, nobody really is, right?
In which case, since applying early undeniably increases the chance of getting admitted, suppose I get in early to Harvard and not into regular Princeton.
And when I visit, my current feeling turns out to be fairly accurate and I prefer Princeton.
Then I'd feel like a fool!
But then if I apply early to Princeton, and suppose I get in.
I have no freedom to actually check them out for myself and choose, because I have no choice but to go.</p>

<p>So then although I really hate to do this again, I can't help but ask for a few people's opinions on my chances.</p>

<p>No SAT results out yet, sat SAT Reasoning Test a week ago and sitting SAT Subject Tests in November.
I guess I would get somewhere around 750 C.R., 750 W, 800 M.
800 physics, 800 math II, 800 chemistry (just because NZ's curriculum seems to be much more advanced)
No formal ranking but pretty sure valedictorian out of about 120 graduation class size.
Immigrant from Korea to New Zealand in 1998, all my education since in English.
I guess my 'hook' is the International Mathematical Olympiad bronze medal.
I won various other mathematics competitions/awards at national and international level.
Took a General Mathematics course that is for 1st year university students, and currently taking Linear Algebra, Quantum Physics, and Electricity and Magnetism papers aimed for 2nd year university students here.
Also took a paper called Ethics, Law, and Religion in a Secular Society, a freshman course as a distance learning thing (1st year uni paper).
A member of the New Zealand Schools Delegation to The Hague International Model United Nations.
Representative of my school (regioinal winners) and the region in debating in the last 3 years.
Top Student in NZ for Calculus Scholarship exam last year.
And other random things like being the Academic Pillar Head Prefect at my school, being picked as one of two NZ students last year selected by the Royal Society of New Zealand to attend the USA International Space Camp, other various involvements that are not particularly interesting like playing in a social rugby team at school, and preparing for the Dip.ABRSM in piano performance.</p>

<p>I think I can get pretty good references, since in this small town Christchurch, I am thought of as a big deal.
Essays, well I'd like to think that I can and will write pretty good essays, but of course I can't really judge the worth of my own writing.
But readers thought that the personal statement I wrote for Trinity College of Cambridge Uni. was pretty moving.</p>

<p>I definitely need a lot of financial aid, and would like to study maths and physics, with a bit of philosophy.
I guess I am likely to go right through to PhD. at some stage and hopefully become a research professor or something (getting a bit too far ahead of myself there)</p>

<p>Can I be fairly confident here of getting into Harvard and Princeton early and regular, or should I play it safe and choose what I currently like, i.e. Princeton ED?</p>

<p>Thanks everyone for your help.
I really appreciate it.
Kind regards
Eric</p>

13

<p>Statistically, your odds of admission are greater if you apply to Princeton, whether ED or RD.</p>

<p>But on the other hand, your odds of admission to Harvard are far, far higher if you apply SCEA than if you apply RD.</p>

<p>Thus, unless you have a strong preference for Harvard, and are confident that your record will stand out, applying ED to Princeton makes strategic sense; it is the safer course of action.</p>

<p>Only you can judge, given your own abilities and interests, which strategy is right for you. But I would rely on solid factors and not soft factors in deciding, since studies have shown that most students will be happy with whatever choice they make. The concept of "fit" is greatly overrated, IMHO.</p>

<p>98% of Harvard matriculants graduate, and 97% of Princeton matriculants graduate. The graduates of each seem to do fairly well, though, again, statistics about admission rates to graduate schools are generally available for strategic guidance.</p>

14

<p>Erick:</p>

<p>The question to ask is not how many students are happy at Princeton or Harvard but what makes you happy. It is very possible that students applied to Harvard "because it's Harvard", they are attending because their parents are making them attend "because it's Harvard," but they would really be better off at a smaller school, in a suburban environment, with a greater sense of being part of a tight-knit community. Some students, however, far prefer Manhattan to Boston/Cambridge let alone a suburban or rural setting.
What makes one person happy does not make someone else happy.
Instead of focusing on strategy, ask yourself what kind of environment suits you best.</p>

15

<p>What a silly post. The overwhelming majority of people who get into both Harvard and Princeton pick Harvard; they always have.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=227689%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=227689&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Somehow I don't think the people opting for Harvard had a gun to their heads, as you wi****lly suggest!</p>

<p>Note: an odd bit of censorship by the automated censorship program. At first I couldn't figure it out, but now I realize that CC doesn't like even random strings of letters suggesting naughtness!</p>

<p>The censored word was w i s t f u l l y!</p>

16

<p>The fact that "the majority of students who get into Harvard and Princeton pick Harvard"" is irrelevant to Erick's decision because he is his own person, not "the majority of students."
For the record, I've just had dinner with a Harvard undergraduate who said he'd applied to several colleges, including Harvard. He got admitted to several; his parents pressured him into going to Harvard "because it's Harvard." Mind you, he's very happy there--as is my S. But what makes my S happy is not necessarily the same thing that would make someone else, including Erick, happy. And in this particular case, only Erick counts, not "the majority of students."</p>

<p>Erick:
I know Harvard deans take very seriously the complaints about student advising that have been expressed in COHFE. Some measures have already been taken to address this problem. My own S's experience has been extremely positive. His classes have been small (the largest has 30 students), and he likes his profs very much. His suitemates seem also very happy both with the social side of things and their classes.</p>

17

<p>You response is the usual cliche, but no more useful than cliches usually are.</p>

<p>Of COURSE each person makes his or her own decision. DUH!! </p>

<p>But absent a compelling personal reason to pick one school or the other, I'd say it makes far more sense to place significant weight on the overwhelming preference of the the most talented applicants, year after year - most of whom had the opportunity to visit - than to rely on a second-hand anecdotal opinion relayed by an anonymous chat room parent.</p>

18

<p>Byerly:</p>

<p>You have no more authority about Harvard than I do, taking into account your mindless boosterism and your many years of interviewing applicants. I am in touch with lots more Harvard students than you are, and have been for the last 20+ years. </p>

<p>Other people's reasons for attending a school is not in the least compelling. The only reason for attending a school is that it should be a good fit for the applicant. </p>

<p>What I am trying to suggest to Erick is that he finds a compelling reason of his own to choose between Princeton and Harvard. Choosing a school because others have done so is the silliest argument I've ever heard. I'm done arguing with you. This discussion is not in the least helpful to Erick.</p>

19

<p>Who's "boosting"? Not me. Just stating obvious facts. It has nothing to do with "authority" ... including your presumed "authority"....indeed, its quite the opposite. </p>

<p>OF COURSE people are free to decide what information is important to them.</p>

<p>But I'm making a very important point to Erik - and to anyone else who cares.</p>

<p>Most kids applying to college are like the blind men and the elephant - their brief impression is often based on little of substance: a nice party on the day they visited at the dorm to which they were randomly assigned... the sun happened to be shining... or it was cloudy and gloomy .... etc etc.</p>

<p>The idea of "fit" etc is so much hogwash, IMHO. Very few kids admitted to an elite and matriculating for whatever reason, substantial or frivolous, are ever unhappy with their choice and wish they were elsewhere - even if three places they thought they'd like better have rejected them.</p>

<p>Nope.</p>

<p>Better to base your choice - assuming you have one - on the considered opinion of people similarly situated.</p>

<p>Unless you have some solid reason to do otherwise, pick the crowded restaurant, not the empty one; buy the top-selling Camry rather than the poor-selling GM alternative; and if you're a smart kid, pick the college that has the most smart kids - assuming you get in.</p>

20

<p>"DUH!"</p>

<p>You guys are LOSERS! :)</p>

<p>Just kidding! Before EAS or someone else comes to kill me!</p>