Princeton ED or Harvard EA?!

Colleges and Universities A-Z Princeton University
1

<p>Hi.
I really need some help on deciding between those two.
I live in New Zealand, so I can't exactly visit them and see the 'fit' right now.
I am planning on studying maths and physics.
Can people please compare and contrast those two universities?
Like academics, student to faculty ratio and the class sizes, their core curriculums, flexibility between those two departments, friendliness of the student body, dorms, activities, night/social life, surrounding city/town, safety, financial aid, weather, prestige, vibe/atmosphere, etc?</p>

<p>Thanks a lot.
Kind regards
Eric</p>

2

<p>Eric, every permutation of this debate, including I believe at one point a discussion of the greenness of the grass, the defecating powers of geese, and the friendliness of squirrels at the respective campuses has already been covered in previous threads. I suggest that you review those rather than stir up the advocates for the respective schools yet again.</p>

3

<p>it's a shame you can't visit, eric. there's really no substitute. princeton just issued its new viewbook, however, which is good as any publication for getting a feel for the place and its offerings, without visitting. there's also the student guide to princeton. happy reading!</p>

<p>viewbook: <a href="http://www.princeton.edu/pr/admissions/u/ai/05/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.princeton.edu/pr/admissions/u/ai/05/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>student guide: <a href="http://www.princeton.edu/pr/pub/sg/index.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.princeton.edu/pr/pub/sg/index.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

4

<p>The "virtual tour" site:
<a href="http://www.news.harvard.edu/tour/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.news.harvard.edu/tour/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>About "real" tours:
<a href="http://www.admissions.college.harvard.edu/parents/visit/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.admissions.college.harvard.edu/parents/visit/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>"Frequently asked questions":
<a href="http://www.harvard.edu/siteguide/faqs/index.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.harvard.edu/siteguide/faqs/index.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Harvard "Fact Book":
<a href="http://vpf-web.harvard.edu/factbook/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://vpf-web.harvard.edu/factbook/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The undergraduate Student Handbook:
<a href="http://www.registrar.fas.harvard.edu/handbooks/student/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.registrar.fas.harvard.edu/handbooks/student/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Links to maps:
<a href="http://www.harvard.edu/community/transportation.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.harvard.edu/community/transportation.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

5

<p>Well, I was going to answer you on the Harvard board, but since we've already got a steady flow of responses over here, I'll keep the status quo.</p>

<p>I find that Harvard and Princeton are actually much more similar than many people are willing to admit. Both have outstanding academics with a vibrant student body and a myriad of opportunities, whether it be research or activities. Both campuses are beautiful. Harvard is in Cambridge, which is a slightly urban town without feeling overwhelmly urban, and definitely caters to college students. It is also right across the river from Boston, so there's tons to do. Princeton is in Princeton (duh ;)), a large suburban town with many shops and restaurants, though they may be a bit on the expensive side. However, Princetonians (< is that the right term?) have easy access to New York City and Philadelphia by train. The Princeton campus is more centralized than Harvard, but you'll never have to walk more than 20 minutes to get anywhere on the Harvard campus, and even that's pretty unusual. Upperclassmen at Princeton usually join eating clubs, which are places where they will eat (again, duh ;)) and party. The 11 (well, i suppose it's 10 now) eating clubs throw huge parties on the weekends and students tend to go from one to the other. This is pretty much the center of the social scene at Princeton, and from what i hear, it's pretty sweet. If you're not into partying, Princeton has tons of other stuff to do. Friday is considered culture night, and students usually go to a play or comedy club and stuff like that. At Harvard, the social scene is totally what you make of it. There are tons of different people there, so you will definitely find a crowd you can run with. If you like to party, the Finals Clubs throw big parties. Houses also throw parties sometimes (all upperclassmen are randomly assigned to a House with seven of their friends). If you're not really into partying, fine... you have all of Boston at your fingertips as well as tons of school activities. Either way you are guaranteed to have a social life, unless you choose to live in the library (some kids do that... no, i'm not kidding. During finals week they brings sleeping bags into the library and STUDY. crazy... :p) I guess those are really the main differences between the two... all other differences are so subtle that you'd have to visit either one to find out.</p>

<p>^ I swear there is no bias in this post... this is coming from someone who has fallen in love with both schools. :)</p>

6

<p>Thanks for that koala, and thanks for the links too.
I am checking out the links at the moment.</p>

7

<p>oh, dammit, i forgot some stuff! ok...</p>

<p>Prestige: They are both equally prestigious, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Harvard probably has more international recognition, though, but within the US, they're on the same level.</p>

<p>Weather: It's COLD in the winter in both places. I HATE the cold. I think Cambridge gets far colder than Princeton, but let's face it... once you reach a certain point, does it really matter whether it's 5 degrees or 15 degrees? Either way you're going to be buried in a cocoon of blankets.</p>

<p>Class size: probably the same. At every university, popular intro courses are huge and then get smaller as you get older. The student to faculty ratio is about the same at both, i think. Harvard gets a lot of criticism for its "grad school focus," but i think a lot of that is a myth... Professors teach classes, and sometimes grad students will lead small optional sections to go over the lecture, which is actually a good system in my opinion. Princeton doesn't really have a grad school, so you are guaranteed to have an undergrad focus.</p>

<p>Flexibility in Departments: At Harvard, you can double major or create your own major. At Princeton, you can't double major because senior year you have to write a senior thesis, and it is physically impossible to do two of those at the same time. However, you can definitely minor in something other than your major. I'm not sure if you can create your own major at Princeton... someone else will have to answer that.</p>

<p>Financial Aid: You won't find any better financial aid anywhere else in the world. Seriously. I think Princeton comes out on top on this one, because all of their aid is grants... they have eliminated all loans. They are very generous, too, and if you have below a certain income you don't have to pay at all. Harvard also has great aid, and if you make less than $40,000, it's free, and in between $40,000 and $60,000 is significantly reduced. Both are need blind for US citizens, but i'm not sure if that holds for international applicants...</p>

<p>Safety: Well, obviously since Princeton is in a suburb (and a pretty wealthy suburb at that), it's probably a little safer than Harvard, which is more urban. However, both universities have put a lot of effort into making escorts available at night and having a big campus police force.</p>

8

<p><em>pauses for breath of air</em></p>

<p>lol those might have been the longest pair of posts i've ever posted. :D</p>

9

<p>Well, the long posts were really helpful.
Thanks.</p>

10

<p>Dispite self-serving myths to the contrary, the ratio of undergrad to grad students is virtually the same at Harvard, Yale and Princeton - ie, people sharing faculty in the College of Arts & Sciences or whatever.</p>

11

<p>and thank you for giving me another excuse to push off doing my hw... :D</p>

12

<p>Lol.
No problem!</p>

13

<p>a few more links, to get to know the princeton campus:</p>

<p>orange key virtual tour: </p>

<p><a href="http://www.princeton.edu/%7Eoktour/virtualtour/Stop01.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.princeton.edu/~oktour/virtualtour/Stop01.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>professional photos:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.brianrose.com/princeton.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.brianrose.com/princeton.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://www.robertgambee.com/mastergallery/showgallery.php?cat=514%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.robertgambee.com/mastergallery/showgallery.php?cat=514&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

14

<p>For what its worth, nearly 4 out of 5 common admits to both Harvard and Princeton have opted for Harvard in recent years. </p>

<p>The ratio skewed sharply toward Harvard last year, as the new Admissions Director, Rapelye, followed through on her announced intention to go head-to-head with HYSM for the top students, abandoning her predecessor's heavy reliance on what is delicately known as the "Princeton type" - ie, those deemed more likely to attend if admitted. </p>

<p>The new President of Princeton has declared, famously, that she wants more of the "green-haired people" that Princeton used to shun.</p>

15

<p>Thanks for those links f.scottie.
And Byerly, that's exactly what I don't get.
If it's like 3:2 or something, then I might understand.
Do you have any possible explanations why so many common admits choose Harvard?</p>

16

<p>Harvard has generally taken 3 out of 4 common admits from its main "competitors" - Stanford, Yale, MIT and Stanford.</p>

<p>Here is one expert's theory as to why this is so:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.educause.edu/ir/library/pdf/ffp9901.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.educause.edu/ir/library/pdf/ffp9901.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<hr>

<p>Quote from a recent USA Today story about the magic of the Harvard "brand name:"</p>

<p>"There isn't any doubt that brand matters and that Harvard is the prestige brand," says Stanley Katz, director of Princeton University's Center for Arts and Cultural Policy Studies. "It's the Gucci of higher education, the most selective place."</p>

<p>Never mind the price tag (upward of $40,000 per year for tuition, room and board), or the fact that guides such as the U.S. News & World Report ranking of colleges and universities say the differences between Harvard and other top-ranked schools are microscopically small. The gulf that separates Harvard from the rest in terms of reputation remains enormous.</p>

<p>"It used to be the case that of students who were admitted to Harvard and Princeton or Harvard and Yale, seven of 10 would choose to go to Harvard," Katz says. "It may be more now. There is a tendency for the academically best to skew even more to Harvard. We just get our socks beat off in those cases."</p>

17

<p>with all due respect (is any <em>really</em> due?), i fail to see how any of this cross-admit spam is at all responsive to the OP's OP.</p>

18

<p>For an advanced physics student such as the OP, I don't know whether the ratio of undergraduate to graduate students should matter at all. He/she would be practically a grad student fairly soon anyway. However, in the interests of accuracy, Harvard has a much lower ratio of undergraduates to total students.</p>

<p>According to IPEDS COOL, as reported by the universities to the feds
Harvard</p>

<p>Total enrollment 24,648</p>

<p>Undergraduate enrollment 9,519</p>

<p>Therefore 39% of students are undergrads. This is the second lowest ratio in the Ivies, only Columbia is lower at 33%.</p>

<p>Princeton
Total enrollment 6,708</p>

<p>Undergraduate enrollment 4,678</p>

<p>Therefore 70% of students are undergrads. This is the third highest in the Ivies, behind Brown and Dartmouth.</p>

<p>But I agree that neither the real numbers on percent undergrads, nor the yields among common admits have anything to do with which would be the better place for an individual. The education at both is as good as it can possibly get for a physicist- one might add Caltech and MIT to the mix at this level. The decision has to be on some other grounds. Following the crowds seems like far too mindless an approach for someone as thoughtful as the OP appears to be.</p>

19

<p>Thanks everyone for all your advice.
I am currently watching their videos, viewbooks, virtual tours, etc., to get a feel of what they are like.
At the moment, I am leaning towards Princeton.
If some random person in a random country has heard of Harvard more than Princeton, that's not a huge deciding factor for me.
Prestige only matters in that that prestige must have come from something.
The feel I am getting at the moment is that Princeton is a really exciting institution that is continuously moving forward, whereas Harvard is proud of its tradition (it of course should be) a little too much and isn't really innovative and exciting place where things are happening.
And I find their video horrible!
But I am doing more research; I am not gonna choose my university based on one video.</p>

<p>Anyways, once again, thanks everyone.
Kind regards
Eric</p>

20

<p>Your stats are way off, and laughably irrelevant anyway.</p>

<p>The Harvard FTE is under 19,000 for the entire university, including people in the professional schools - the law school, medical school and business school, which all have separate campuses and separate faculties not "shared" by undergrads.</p>

<p>The larger number you cite also includes, presumably, thousands of extension school students taking one or two courses, and who, similarly, have a separate faculty.</p>

<p>FACT: Those who teach undergraduate and <em>graduate</em> students at HYP are the respective members of the Faculty of Arts and Sciences. At each of these schools, the ratio of undergrads to grads is virtually the same.</p>