Harvard/NEC after attending Harvard

[Bassplayer08]

<p>About Princeton, I do not know if you are aware TerrenceC of the double-degree program with the Royal College of Music in London, UK.
Students go to London for one semester during the Junior Year and go back for one year after the senior year to get their master of music. I believe it involves doing the music certificate at Princeton during Freshman and Somophore Year and taking private lessons.</p>

<p>[Princeton</a> University - New program will allow Princeton students to study at Royal College of Music](<a href=“http://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/S19/75/58O83/index.xml]Princeton”>New program will allow Princeton students to study at Royal College of Music) and [Royal</a> College of Music -](<a href=“Home | Royal College of Music”>Home | Royal College of Music)</p>

<p>I don’t know how it is in the US but in Europe, the RCM is one of the best schools (well maybe more for orchestral instruments, idk).</p>

[TerrenceC]

<p>@mamenyu:
This was probably my first mistake. I contacted the Office of Financial Aid about my money woes, not the conservatory. When a new financial aid letter came back, it was literally only $6 dollars more than the previous offer (which I thought was some type of joke). Do you think it would be insensitive to contact the Con end with basically the same question? I have already received, from the conservatory, $10k in scholarship, which I’m assuming is now their top scholarship since I did not see more than that posted in the Scholarship 2010 thread. I really would like to not have my parents pay that kind of cash when I knew they wouldn’t be doing so in another case. However, they do want what I want.</p>

<p>@memake
I have no doubt that I would be happy at Yale. It seems like a great place and it has that artistic vibe that the other two Ivies lack. However, considering all three, like most students in this dilemma, I want to know I can pursue my music seriously and the visiting days will let me now how possible that will be. And yes, I have come to find that singing is a sort of tradition of Yale. Famous for their Whiffenpoofs, they also have several other a capella groups as well as other vocal outlets. I am excited to learn more once I get on campus and can really dig in!</p>

<p>@sopranomom92:
I was all set to go and visit Princeton (it was going to be for free) until I found out I would have to miss either a concert that has been planned for ages or an important competition (there are two weekends) =[. As this is the case, I am trying to find out as much as I can by contacting people and sifting through websites.</p>

<p>@Bassplayer08:
I actually looked into that. My only gripe about it is if some people here think that students would have some type of anonymous status on the school of music/conservatory end doing a BA/MM program, for instance, then this program with RCM would make this assertion even more credible. Do you know anything specific about it?</p>

[mamenyu]

<p>Insensitive…to whom? Not to worry on that count. We were told at a panel during the audition that the College is harder to negotiate with than the Conservatory, but ultimately the financial aid office makes the call. I don’t know about trying again, but if you are seriously considering Oberlin, no reason not to try - give the conservatory a call - call Daune Mahy, perhaps?<br>
The Princeton program with RCM sounds interesting, but don’t they require a Jr. thesis at Princeton as a prelude to the Sr. thesis? Might be tough. Also it looks like it’s set up for music majors.<br>
If you haven’t visited Princeton, you should try to, while school is in session, before deciding to go there.</p>

[Bassplayer08]

<p>So overall, I suppose an Ivy League education can less or more offer the same musical opportunities as a conservatory (though students have to look for them or create them), but also a better employability and a broader range of careers ?</p>

<p>I’m aifraid I didn’t understand your question TerrenceC, even with the dictionnary, please forgive my English…</p>

[mamenyu]

<p>Maybe it’s worth repeating what to many here is obvious: No, the “Ivy’s” do not offer the same musical opportunities, though there are many very good musical opportunities at a few of the schools in this group of colleges. Thus, Columbia, Harvard, and Yale, and now Princeton do not offer performance degrees but have some very limited programs with conservatories, usually at an added cost - i.e., limited in terms of the number of students participating, and do not involve a BMus degree. By contrast, conservatories are full time music, all the time, with some electives - maybe also arrangements with local colleges, e.g. Juilliard students can take some Columbia courses. The double degree programs offer conservatory and college programs (see, e.g., Oberlin, Tufts, Lawrence, Michigan, Northwestern, USC, etc.), usually completed over a 5 year period. For those just going to these colleges or universities and taking lessons or participating in extracurricular music activities (or some performance courses for credit), one other key difference is size and commitment of your musical peer group.
And though it may be easier to land an interview for an investment banking job from Columbia, Princeton, Yale, or Harvard, the other colleges offer first-rate educational experiences too, and the same range of careers.</p>

[stringkeymom]

<p>mamenyu, I would like to make a correction or two in your summary. You stated: “No, the “Ivy’s” do not offer the same musical opportunities”–I feel this is a generalization and largely inaccurate. The amount of musical opportunities varies considerably from school to school and the schools should not be lumpted together collectively, rather, each school should be considered separately. </p>

<p>You also assert, globally, that “the Ivies” do not offer a performance major. This is misinformation and I would like to clarify for future readers of the thread.</p>

<p>Princeton does offer a certificate in musical performance. The music major at Yale is not a performance major, but music majors do take private performance lessons for credit, many at the School of Music, which is a conservatory. The teachers at the School of Music are world class conservatory teachers. There is no added cost for the instruction. Depending on instrument, composition, etc. there are mixed ensembles and collaborations between Yale undergrad and the School of Music.</p>

<p>In addition, Both Princeton and Yale sponsor a full year of performance study at RCM in London. </p>

<p>The following statement is not completely accurate: “but have some very limited programs with conservatories, usually at an added cost -”. I would not describe the Harvard/NEC or the Columbia/Juilliard programs as “limited”. The student must be accepted at NEC or Juilliard in order to be in the joint program. The Harvard/NEC student has full access to musical ensembles at both institutions. The cost of participation has varied over the last few years.</p>

<p>At a campus where the performing arts have a high profile, it can be “music all the time” (or drama, etc.) just as it would be at a stand alone conservatory.</p>

<p>The main difference I have noticed between my son’s peers’ experience at conservatory and in the colleges is the social context. At a conservatory, your peers are all doing the same thing and understand each other’s commitment, need to practice, etc. At a college or university, with or without a conservatory or performance major, the majority of the students are not pursuing music as a professional career path (though many who are doing music as an EC may excell, even beyond those at conservatory). This may be a bonus, in terms of a broader educational experience and greater diversity of outlook; it can also be a disadvantage as probably only the campus athletes will relate to the degree of discipline and commitment that is necessary to the performer.</p>

<p>Mamenyu also wrote: “one other key difference is size and commitment of your musical peer group.” This is critical and it is vital to visit the school (whether a conservatory or LAC) and scope out the musical opportunities and ensembles. There is no hard and fast rule here: I have heard reports of completely disaffected orchestras at conservatories or music schools, and have heard Ivy League ensembles (like Harvard’s Bach Soc or Yale’s premier vocal groups) that rival the best conservatories. </p>

<p>I suppose that to summarize, I would simply emphasize that, rather than make generalizations, it is best to scrutinize each school individually and as closely as possible to make sure it gives the student what they need.</p>

[violadad]

<p>stringkeymom, in defense of mamenyu, I have made many of the same statements she has made. </p>

<p>While I agree with a number of your points, I have to point out that none of the Ivys currently offer ANY performance undergrad degree. If that has recently changed, I would love to have the link so I do not to promulgate incorrect info.</p>

<p>A performance certificate indeed may approach a BM in the depth of musical training and experience (and for some may even be better), but it is not a degree. </p>

<p>The music programs at Yale, Harvard, Princeton and Columbia, UPenn are fine programs and can serve many, including those that wish a performance based career.</p>

<p>But you will have a far harder row to hoe at Dartmouth, Brown, Cornell. And if we want to throw in some of the near Ivys, I might put MIT in a similar group with the first; Stanford, in the second, and in many aspects quite below. While there are exceptional performers on any given instrument, there is quite often an imbalance in peer level across all instrumentation. You are not necessarily surrounded by “like minds”. For some, yes a potential plus, for others, a very large minus.</p>

<p>These are not true performance centered programs, nor are they conservatory level performance programs. They are performance concentrations within an extremely strong liberal arts curriculum. Those that can take advantage of both aspects should investigate fully and speak to both current and former students, because there is a wide disparity as to whether any particular student can reap the full benefits contingent on the path they are seeking.</p>

<p>These will work extremely well for some, and far less so for others. And they are often at the top of anyone’s list for the music academic disciplines.</p>

<p>As with ANY program you need to dig fully. Most of us here know that. My purpose is to insure that those unaware realize the difference.</p>

<p>But, that’s my $.02.</p>

[stringkeymom]

<p>Viola Dad, thank you. As always you summarize everything very clearly and succinctly. </p>

<p>BTW, I completely agree about Cornell, Brown, etc. but even without a B. Mus., many graduates from Ivy League and other LACs, do go on to professional lives in music performance, or to graduate work for a M.M. at a conservatory. I could list a string of names beginning with Yo Yo Ma (Harvard) and Emmanuel Axe (Columbia) and ending with more recent vintage muscians like Richard Gupta, youngest violinist player ever hired by the LA Philharmonic, who was a premed as an undergrad, or Melvyn Chen (who took a B.S. Yale in Physics and Chemistry, a Harvard Ph.D. in Chemistry, and Juilliard master’s degrees in piano AND violin: [Melvin</a> Chen Biography](<a href=“http://www.melvinchen.com/bio]Melvin”>http://www.melvinchen.com/bio)).</p>

[violadad]

<p>stringkeymom, that goes without saying. I know a number with academic non music degrees performing professionally or at the cusp of “making it” from Yale; son had a peer at Columbia in an academic discipline considering going back for an MM in cello performance at Juilliard or NEC. I also know (and does son) of those who wish they had looked more deeply.</p>

<p>Once again, it all boils down to fit.</p>

[mamenyu]

<p>I’m sorry for any inaccuracies - but I have investigated many of these schools and know students at them who are involved in music: moreover, my kid was admitted to several of them. When I said “limited” I qualified it by saying limited in number. There are a small handful of students in any of these programs - Columbia-Juillard, Harvard-NEC. To me, that means “limited.” But I also tend to think that for someone who doesn’t also major in music, it is a limited music education - lessons at Juilliard or NEC, but not the courses that any student in a conservatory takes. You can make up for it at Harvard by majoring in music, but if you major in economics you are unlikely to get the musical education you are required to get at a conservatory. As for Princeton, the certificate is a “minor” that starts in the last 2 years. It is not a performance degree. The Princeton program with RCM is new - nobody has done it yet - and it cuts into the Jr. thesis year. Moreover, it seemed to be 1 semester of Jr. year, not a full year. The lessons at Princeton, for music majors are free. I don’t know if this is true for non majors. The lessons at Harvard when I looked into it, were subsidized but were need-based - would not have helped in our case, making the total cost for both Harvard and lessons beyond my comfort zone. The students in many of the ensembles at Harvard and Yale are enthusiastic, yes, but they are also largely not music majors, so they have many academic demands. I don’t buy the argument that for most students it is the same as going to a conservatory. They don’t have the time. Also, many of the students, like the head of the BachSoc, do summers in investment banking firms. There have also been many articles in the Crimson and Yale Daily about how hard it is to find practice rooms and to put together ensembles - that is not the case at conservatories.</p>

[cosar]

<p>It is possible to enter the Harvard/NEC program after a year at Harvard. Jamie Danner, who got a Harvard grant to study music in Europe after his freshman year, and who wrote about it for Yard Magazine, mentions in this post that he was “just accepted” to the dual program. [The</a> Yard Magazine Blog Archive A Passport to Knowledge: Jamie Danner ?12 (part 2 of 3)](<a href=“http://yardmagazine.harvard.edu/a-passport-to-knowledge-jamie-danner-’12-part-2-of-3/]The”>http://yardmagazine.harvard.edu/a-passport-to-knowledge-jamie-danner-’12-part-2-of-3/)</p>

[mamenyu]

<p>here’s a link to the Harvard music lesson subsidy program, which seems to be limited to $300 a semester, need-based.
[Office</a> for the Arts at Harvard: Arts Groups](<a href=“http://ofa.fas.harvard.edu/support/mlsp.php]Office”>http://ofa.fas.harvard.edu/support/mlsp.php)
here’s the gist:
"It is intended for students who, without financial help, could not make a sustained commitment to taking music lessons. The program is not for beginning musicians. New applicants must demonstrate a certain level of proficiency and/or potential, as evidenced by their musical activities or in a brief screening with members of the Music Department. Returning applicants who have been awarded subsidies in past academic years are not required to participate in screenings, but will have their financial aid status reviewed prior to any subsidy determination for the new academic year.</p>

<p>The subsidies are matching grants covering, at most, one-half the total cost of the student’s lessons. Ordinarily, the maximum subsidy is $300 per semester, but higher subsidy awards have been considered in cases where extreme financial need has been determined.* Recipients are selected on the dual basis of financial need as determined by the University and demonstrated musical ability and/or potential."</p>

[mamenyu]

<p>here’s Princeton’s policy
<a href=“http://www.princeton.edu/music/private-lessons/[/url]”>http://www.princeton.edu/music/private-lessons/&lt;/a&gt;
the gist:
Private Lessons
The Department of Music manages a non-credit, extracurricular program for the private study of vocal and instrumental performance for all students. Departmental concentrators are expected and students in the Program in Musical Performance are required to pursue some kind of performance study and therefore the department subsidizes the entire cost of weekly lessons taken with teachers under contract with the department. Partial subsidies, one-half the cost of lessons, are available to other students who are participating either in the Glee Club (Concert Choir), Orchestra, or Jazz Ensembles.
…
Contracts are signed for 10 lessons a semester at a rate of $80/hour. Student accounts are billed in October for the fall semester and February for the spring semester and subsidy, subject to the teacher’s evaluation and approval, is credited at the end of each term.
The certificate program <a href=“http://www.princeton.edu/music/certificate-of-music/requirements/:[/url]”>http://www.princeton.edu/music/certificate-of-music/requirements/:&lt;/a&gt;
The program is open to a limited number of qualified performers from any department. Admission to the program is by audition for a committee consisting of the director and selected department faculty. Although enrollment in the program is limited to juniors and seniors, students may begin taking the courses that count toward certificate requirements in their freshman year.</p>

[mamenyu]

<p>from a recent article in the Yale Daily News on practice rooms for undergrads at Yale:
Students vie for music practice space</p>

<p>By Eliza Brooke
Contributing Reporter
Published Friday, November 6, 2009
For student musicians, waiting in line for practice rooms, kicking other students out of rooms they have reserved, rescheduling rehearsals or conceding defeat and settling for out-of-tune pianos are all familiar ordeals.</p>

<p>There are currently about 30 music practice rooms in residential colleges, Hendrie Hall, William L. Harkness Hall and 320 Temple St. open to all students. Another 13 rooms in Sprague Hall are open only to graduate students in the School of Music and undergraduates enrolled in music lessons for credit. For the hundreds of students who take music lessons, play in undergraduate orchestras, sing a cappella or just practice an instrument on their own time, Yale does not have enough music spaces, six students interviewed said.</p>

[mamenyu]

<p>this an article from the Columbia student newspaper about the joint program from a student perspective:</p>

<p>Blue Notes
As I’m walking into the Wallach lounge after class, the euphony of Chopin’s 4th Ballade spills through the door. Larry Weng, C’09, is at the piano, where he consistently practices on Mondays and Wednesdays around noon.
Weng, a student in the Columbia-Juilliard exchange program, plays throughout our conversation, pausing for the occasional page turn. The highly selective program allows students to complete a Bachelor of Arts at Columbia and Masters of Music at Juilliard within five years. But it is not without its pitfalls
Administrative communication is muddled, scheduling is difficult, and admissions have historically been a mess. “We can’t expect the same level of support from both schools that exclusive students would,” says Weng, who has adapted to the frustrations. “But all in all, it’s a great option for musicians…who aren’t quite ready yet to confine themselves to the practice room.”
For others, the exchange is not the only off-campus route. A handful of students participate in lessons and chamber music through agreements with Juilliard; others, such as such as Michael Szeto C’10, opt to study with conservatory faculty through private arrangements.
Szeto is content playing chamber music and serving as concertmaster of the University Orchestra. “If I were in a dual-degree program, I’m positive things would be much harder,” he says. “[It] would involve practicing three to seven hours a day. There wouldn’t be a lot of time for non-school/violin related activities.”
For Weng, practicing a minimum of three hours a day and balancing an Economics major is especially complicated, thanks to his troubled search for a decent piano. “[It’s like] a homeless man looking through a dumpster,” he says. But the Wallach lounge has been good to him, even if the piano is long overdue for a tune-up.</p>

[stringkeymom]

<p>Mamenyu: “but I have investigated many of these schools and know students at them who are involved in music: moreover, my kid was admitted to several of them. When I said “limited” I qualified it by saying limited in number.”</p>

<p>I have taught at two of those schools, live down the road from one of them, my son has studied at two of them, attends another, and his father attended another. At this time of writing, I know students currently attending every one of the schools we are discussing who are serious musicians pursuing their music; most are music majors, or taking the performance certificates, etc. I am sure most of us on these boards know students attending most of the major conservatories and music programs nationally.</p>

<p>My only point, as Viola Dad has also said, is that it is important to look “more deeply” and find the right fit. This is particularly important because the programs we are discussing are all relatively new and changing constantly. Obviously, this doesn’t need to be repeated any more.</p>

<p>Because facts and inside information from people on the ground can give dimension to a website or news article, I am going to make a few comments about the information mamenyu has posted.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Princeton. You do not need to be a music major to obtain the performance certificate. You do need to be a music major for lessons to be fully subsidized. In addition to what Mamenyu has reproduced here from the website, there is more information in the actual physical bulletin (not on the website). There is also more information available in actual conversation with faculty and the music department about options and possibilities. For example, the Junior Thesis requirement can be fulfilled while studying overseas. </p></li>
<li><p>Yale: I read that article, too, however, there is not really a dearth of practice rooms at Yale. If you are taking lessons for credit, you have access to all the practice rooms at the School of Music and in the Department of Music. (This was stated in the article). There are also practice rooms in most of the residential colleges.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>It is true that students who aren’t taking lessons for credit will have trouble getting a practice room. But we aren’t discussing that here. We are talking about serious music students who would be taking lessons for credit.</p>

<p>I would also like to add, with all respect, that there can be difficulties in getting a practice room anywhere. From friends at MSM and NEC, I have heard many stories about the lines outside the practice rooms, so simply being at a conservatory does not guarantee ease of getting a practice room.</p>

<p>Mamenyu wrote, re: limitations: “lessons at Juilliard or NEC, but not the courses that any student in a conservatory takes”. </p>

<p>In fact, the “limits” differ by school.</p>

<p>Students in the Harvard/NEC program have full access to the NEC courses and ensembles. They are taking a double degree, so they take the same curriculum as the NEC students.</p>

<p>Music majors at Yale may (pending successful auditions and placement) take School of Music courses (theory, history, ear training, composition, analysis, atonal dictation, conducting); you do not need to be a music major to audition for chamber music for credit with formed ensembles coached by SOM faculty. </p>

<p>The Columbia/Juilliard joint program does appear limited to Juilliard lessons only. And the extra curricular music ensembles at Columbia are not that strong.</p>

[mamenyu]

<p>I’m not competing with anyone here, and of course I think fit is the point. But to point to YoYo Ma as an example of someone who went to Harvard, or Emanuel Axe who went to Columbia is rather misleading, no? They could have gone to junior college and become great musicians - they were already great musicians when they started. It’s a little like saying Natalie Portman went to Harvard and is a successful actor, so go there and you can do the same thing. Or drop out of Harvard and become Bill Gates.
Anyway, not to argue. One nice thing about this forum is that people are generally not competitive and try to be helpful.<br>
Anyone admitted to such fine schools as Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Columbia, and Juilliard should investigate and consider them seriously. I would never suggest otherwise. The music departments at all of them are first-rate - though apart from Juilliard that is speaking of academic music - i.e., music history, theory, composition, and ethnomusicology; they have virtually no performance faculty, nor will your studies in music focus on performance for the BA. They are also very demanding schools academically. Someone who wants to graduate in 4 years from Harvard in economics would have a tough time fitting in many music courses at Harvard or NEC. And the program involves not a BMus but an MM so it is not the “same curriculum” except at the MM level - that is, it does not require the extensive undergraduate course work that is involved in obtaining a BMus. Access to the courses, perhaps, but that is not the same thing as actually having to take them or being able to fit them into your academic program. Again, there are students who will, but it is a tough row to hoe to borrow the metaphor used by violadad. Of course there are those students who do very well after Harvard, etc. and go on to MM and DMA programs. </p>

<p>As I understand it, most Yale undergrad musicians do not study with the top faculty at YSM - many study with grad students. Presumably they are very talented grad students (one of them in recent years even was an undergrad at Harvard!). But is it the same thing as studying with Jerome Lowenthal or Robert Mann?
By the way, Oberlin has more than 150 practice rooms. And no grad students to bounce you out of the room when they want to practice.</p>

[memake]

<p>Hey TerenceC - let us know what you find out. Hope you have a chance over the next couple of weeks to meet with possible teachers at the Ivies you are considering and get info about participation in opera productions, etc.</p>

<p>I believe that the situation and the issues for vocalists in general might be significantly different from what instrumentalists face - so find out for yourself how it would work for you. For example, my daughter struggles with the fact that she can’t rely on finding more than about an hour a day to practice. This would definitely not be true for her if she had chosen a conservatory. BUT, she could have chosen an easier course load - so again, your personality, interests, musical requirements – are all individual. You know best what you need, and you will be able to judge whether you’re likely to get it at an Ivy or an excellent conservatory.</p>

[Allmusic]

<p>Students in the Harvard/NEC program have time at most for an ensemble and their studio lessons during the first two to three years of the program. The fifth year is devoted totally to the MM, and all coursework is at NEC. Prior to that, most students are busy fulfilling many major requirements at Harvard, and there simply isn’t time to partake in the coursework that full-time NEC students take.</p>

[lorelei2702]

<p>Singers cannot sing that many hours of the day, no more than 1-2 including ensemble time, so extensive practice room availability is less of an issue than for string and piano players (brass and to some extent woodwinds also have time limitations). OTOH, singers do need to be enriching their knowledge of languages, literature, historical perspectives, etc., which is more academic in nature (as opposed to motor skill and coordination development…going to a conservatory is in many ways like going to a trade school).</p>