Harvard or Princeton?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Princeton University
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<p>I never said Harvard did not have any Core at all. I implied it didn’t have a Core that had any real teeth, one “that shows students who they are within our western civilized framework and in relation to other cultures.” This opinion is based upon my reading several articles by people who are very familiar with Harvard:</p>

<p>THE TRUTH ABOUT HARVARD
It may be hard to get into Harvard, but it's easy to get out without learning much of enduring value at all. A recent graduate's report
BY ROSS DOUTHAT
<a href="http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/prem/200503/douthat%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/prem/200503/douthat&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>In a Crimson article that aims to debunk Harvard “myths” (but that in my opinion verifies them since it comments on how hard it is for students to connect with professors while also making a big deal of a few student-professor relationships that many schools take for granted), the Crimson outright claims that it is a myth that “The Core is part of a well-rounded liberal arts education.” (see myth#3 - <a href="http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=347765)%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=347765)&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p>

<p>C'mon man. How can I NOT have this opinion when Harvard student leaders are publicly coming right out and making fun of their own curriculum? I realize the program has changed a little, but even now many claim it is too little, too late.</p>

<p>As for the celebrity stuff, I didn’t mean to just dismiss Watson. The point is, other schools have huge luminaries speaking to them too. I just don’t see how this means Harvard is this big center of education because of some guy giving a speech! And without a Core that helps integrate these kinds of experiences, I don’t see how they will typically help the average Harvard student gain any lasting benefit.</p>

<p>Yeah. As I said, it CAN be useful. You apparently are just enamored with it all. But it all seems to depend so much on students, many of whom are still exploring themselves, that you are just bound to get EXACTLY the problem Harvard has today.</p>

<p>I guess I am not really that impressed with this celebrity stuff, in itself, as something for intellectual development. I think college should be about increasing DEPTH of intellectual growth, vitality and sensitivity, as well as enhancing the breadth of it. At some point your education has got to get some earthiness to it.</p>

<p>I mean, Shakespeare should be coming alive in you, being reborn through your personality and then interacting with the Shakespeare in some other young scholar so that you all see the Bard in ways that are just blowing you away. I think you’ll get a lot more bang for your educational buck doing this kind of thing than by hobnobbing with a bunch of actresses and politicians who more than likely are talking a bunch of self-serving nonsense. But, you know, this is just my opinion about a school. I don’t want you to get mad about it.</p>

<p>I don’t mean it to be harsh at all. But I think I am just finding it a bit frustrating to hear great young minds being carried away by stuff I don’t really value. And the thing is, I have tried to value this stuff and I just keep coming up dry time-after-time. It represents to me a great fear—that my kids are going to leave my home, a place where the sciences and great literature are practically worshipped purely for their own sake regardless of how much money they promise, and then find themselves surrounded by sophisticated hobnobbers who have no real love and passion for sharing these things.</p>

<p>This is NOT about you or any other Harvard person. I have kids who like the Harvard name and I am trying to find the source of that name. I have come to some conclusions. But you know what? I’d give them up in a heartbeat if I can find they have no basis. But when I see scholar after scholar, source after valid source confirming my opinion, well, what is there left to do?</p>

<p>Alright. I've just come to the belief that I should shut down on this. Its taking too much time and I am not getting much new stuff out of it. My opinion on this whole question? Between Harvard and Princeton for undergrad, there is no choice at all but to go Princeton. For graduate school, try hard for Harvard, but also Yale can't really be beat for either undergrad or grad school.</p>

<p>But if you just HAVE to have Harvard (and you aren't my kid), then go Harvard if you can. Simple as that.</p>

202

<p>"I mean, Shakespeare should be coming alive in you, being reborn through your personality and then interacting with the Shakespeare in some other young scholar so that you all see the Bard in ways that are just blowing you away. I think you’ll get a lot more bang for your educational buck doing this kind of thing than by hobnobbing with a bunch of actresses and politicians who more than likely are talking a bunch of self-serving nonsense." </p>

<p>These are lovely and profound thoughts. Ideally there is an interplay between the big names and the student's inner growth. That is facilitated when the big names really get involved on campus rather than just visiting, and when they are encouraged to see teaching as an important part of what they do. This article on how the pioneering geneticist David Botstein teaches undergrads at Princeton is a vivid example: <a href="http://www.princeton.edu/%7Epaw/archive_new/PAW04-05/13-0420/features1.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.princeton.edu/~paw/archive_new/PAW04-05/13-0420/features1.html&lt;/a> "Tilghman asked why a man who led a laboratory of 30 scientists working on cutting-edge cancer research would want to come to a relatively new venture — it was then only three years old — and was impressed by his response: 'Because I think we have to teach biology completely differently in the 21st century, and Princeton is the only place that is going to take me seriously.' </p>

<p>Another example is Princeton's Atelier program, which brings in very big-name artists (actors, dancers, producers, etc. from Peter Sellars to Allegra Kent to Jacques d'Amboise to Gabriel García Márquez to Yo Yo Ma) and has them work together for a full semester with a group of students on a production. Journalism students on campus had to choose this semester from several small seminars offered by Pulitzer prizewinners. I could go on but suffice it to say that in field after field, Princeton offers students opportunities to work in small groups with people at the top of their respective fields, an unforgettable experience. </p>

<p>Cncm, the list of people you have met and heard speak this year is impressive. I remember as an undergrad that these meetings made an enormous impression on me. However, I am not sure where you get your assumption that a very impressive list of people doesn't go to Princeton as well. There you're mistaken. I think one of the characteristics that distinguishes HYP from some other schools is this capacity -- thanks to geography, stature, and funding -- to bring in amazing people for students to hear and meet. Often these people are on campus not to make a policy speech for the media but to visit a particular class or residential college or eating club. </p>

<p>The only trouble my d has encountered in seeing these people is that for students like her who are deeply involved in campus activities, there just isn't time to do or see or meet more than 1/10, if that, of the glitterati who come to campus.</p>

203

<p>Dross, are you planning to control your kids' decisions for the rest of their lives, or at some point will you let them make their own decisions, even if those decisions are not the same as you would make? One of the hardest, but most important, things for a parent to do is to let go.</p>

204

<p>You people are all wasting enormous amounts of time and energy trying to split hairs to distinguish between two of the finest colleges in the world. It's like endlessly arguing over which is the better sports car - Ferrari or Lamborghini. The truth is that they are both fantastic cars and way ahead of the Chevys that most people get to drive. Who cares if one has a slightly smoother gear shift or the other gets slightly better gas mileage?</p>

<p>Most of the criticisms leveled at each school have some (probably very remote) basis in fact but just don't prove to be that big a deal in lives of most students. Princeton has problems associated with eating clubs and Harvard has final clubs. But both of these "problems" are not that big of a deal. It is perhaps lamentable that exclusive and snotty social clubs exist at all in the 21st century, but these institutions are no worse than the frats found on thousands of other campuses, and yet the republic still stands. Like I said: just not that big of a deal. </p>

<p>Harvard has more money and Princeton has more "undergraduate focus" (whatever that is), but you know what? Princeton still has plenty of money and Harvard still has plenty of undergraduate focus -- it's not that big of a deal.</p>

<p>Princeton students are said to be preppier (whatever that is) and elitist and Harvard students are said to be pompous and elitist. Those are both just tiresome stereotypes. You can find plenty of every kind of student at each school. And in any case it's not that big of deal.</p>

<p>The reason why none of these things is a very big deal is that any kid smart, motivated, and accomplished enough to get admitted to either school is certainly capable and flexible enough to dive into the culture and opportunities available at each school and make a big success of it and be very happy. College students just aren't that fragile that we really need to worry about whether Princeton's architecture is slightly more appealing or whether Harvard's profs and guest speakers are slightly more famous. </p>

<p>So for anyone fortunate enough to have to actually choose between driving the Ferrari and driving the Lamborghini, just pick the one that appeals to you most and go with it. You can't go wrong. And in the meantime all the rest of us can quit arguing.</p>

205

<p>cosar:
C'mon man. That's unfair. I am not "controlling" anything. I am trying to influence the choices based upon the information I have found. I only present the thing here to see if the view I am giving to my kids has merit. The kids may choose to ignore my view (and they do, sometimes more than I would like) and do as they please here. But I think I have an obligation to give a considered opinion on this stuff. </p>

<p>You know, when you spend a lifetime with a kid, helping to shape his intellectual development and love of learning, and you see him possibly going into an environment where all of that is killed by a bunch of busy nonsense, it is important that you at least make a tested case for your view to him so that he can at least see that there is a reason to think differently.</p>

<p>Should a good parent do less?</p>

206

<p>
[quote]
College students just aren't that fragile that we really need to worry about whether Princeton's architechture is slightly more appealing or whether Harvard's profs and guest speakers are slightly more famous.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>gggg. Okay. Yeah. You have a good point here, one that is worth remembering.</p>

<p>The fact is, if one of my kids ever does get into Harvard, all they will really need is a place to sleep, food to eat, access to lectures, other students and libraries. They will be curious enough to take care of the rest themselves, Core Curriculum or not.</p>

207

<p>Coureur, I am with you all the way. As I've said before, I don't disparage Harvard in my posts. I do feel the need to lay out the facts about opportunities at Princeton, though, in response to the stereotypes and misinformation that too often gets posted here for whatever reason.</p>

208

<p>I was only reacting to the parenthetical in this statement:

[quote]
But if you just HAVE to have Harvard (and you aren't my kid), then go Harvard if you can.

[/quote]

In my view, if one's child is lucky enough to be admitted to both Harvard and Princeton, and assuming money is not an issue (one would expect the financial aid packages from each to be equivalent), a good parent should recognize that a motivated student can get a great education at either, and can be happy at either (as are/were most all the Harvard and Princeton students and alums who post here or whose parents post here), and should leave the decision entirely up to the student without pressuring him/her in one direction or the other. Coureur expressed it better than I could, so I'll leave it at that.</p>

209

<p>I do agree that both schools CAN provide a great education. But the differences between them are significant and in my view give Princeton the clear undergraduate advantage. I think the advantage exists because Princeton's culture seems generally more focused than Harvard's on exploration and collaboration between students and especially between students and professors. I think this opinion is legitimate and ought not cause anyone any personal problem.</p>

<p>But its okay. I think it is unfair to use my little parenthetical statement to mean I am "controlling" my kid. You gotta know that is an attack against me. And, well, it is just not justified by anything I have said here. I have said nothing negative against anyone here.</p>

<p>The statement simply means that if you HAVE to have Harvard, and you are not my kid, then my opinion is that you should go for Harvard-- nothing else left for me to say. But if you are my kid, whether you have to have Harvard or not, then I have an obligation to you to at least give you my considered opinion about it. After that, you make your own bed and sleep in it.</p>

<p>I think this is what any caring parent should do. But, maybe parenting styles have changed and I am just old-fashioned.</p>

<p>At any rate, I have to stop posting here because it is turning up nothing good.</p>

210

<p>While I disagree with just about everything else you've said in this thread, I agree with your last sentence, and will follow your lead on that. ;)</p>

211

<p>Drosselmeier's kids are apparently homeschooled.</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showpost.php?p=1761377&postcount=18%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showpost.php?p=1761377&postcount=18&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

212

<p>Indeed they are, and now I am going through the whole Harvard thing all over again. I am just hoping that rather than have my son spend the time applying, as my daughter did, he will choose to apply to schools that will give him the benefit of discussion and collaboration he is accustomed to. But, in the end, it is his choice and I will support him wholeheartedly in whatever he tries.</p>

213

<p>Why quit now? Have you considered handling his account thru to the PhD level?</p>

214

<p>
[quote]
Have you considered handling his account thru to the PhD level?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Only under one circumstance: if he gets into Har-- LOL. Forget it. Almost couldn't resist.</p>

<p>Not to change the subject, but how 'bout them Bears?</p>

215

<p>
[quote]
Why quit now? Have you considered handling his account thru to the PhD level?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Byerly......Why do you think cell phones were invented?</p>

<p>I talk to my son just about every day and my wife gives input on course selection. He will let us know if we are crowding him.</p>

216

<p>"I talk to my son just about every day and my wife gives input on course selection. He will let us know if we are crowding him"</p>

<p>Hello Mr. Ivy</p>

<p><em>background music</em> of The Crying Game</p>

217

<p><<< rolls eyes>>> ;)</p>

218

<p>I think Drosselmeier expressed my meaning quite beautifully in his earlier posts. It is true that initiative and perseverance are admirable and useful traits, but they are not the only traits that will bring success in the world. I considered the Harvard environment to be more focused; students know what fields they want to pursue and then figure out how to get ahead in that field. These kids come out with impressive internships and budding political prospects, for instance, but not all students want to direct their education toward getting a career that involves cutthroat competition. An educational system that fosters independence and dedication to one goal can benefit those who seek to enter highly competitive fields like politics or business. However, skills such as collaboration and cooperation are more developed in a "supportive" structure. Education is not all about success; it is about learning. If a student is not sure what path he wants to follow and wants to simply explore and learn as deeply and broadly as possible, this is more possible in a supportive and collaborative structure with closer faculty/student contact and more accessible opportunities. I, personally, think that such intellectual openness and willingness to cooperate and discuss is just as valuable as initiative and independence. All qualities are developed at both schools. I simply think the structure of Harvard places more emphasis on the latter while the structure of Princeton places more emphasis on the former. Not better, not worse, but different.</p>

<p>And for heaven's sake, cut Drosselmeier some slack. A good parent tries to give a child as much information as possible in order to allow their child to make a good decision that will make them happy in the long run. His children sound like intelligent, independent-thinking students who deserve his advice as well as his support. My father certainly does not control me, but he has given me invaluable insight during my college selection process that has allowed me to make my decision. When I received advice from him, I checked it. His words on Harvard have been reinforced endlessly, as have his words on Princeton. By directing me to learn more about these schools instead of blindly applying based on prestige, he helped me find the schools that would be best for me. Like Drosselmeier has, my father has given me a gift that will last for my entire lifetime. Don't attack a parent for doing his job.</p>

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<p>With all due respect, I beleve you have been poorly advised and are relying on tired cliches and overdrawn stereotypes bruited about by folks with an ax to grind.</p>

<p>If you have been led to believe that the Harvard undergraduate student body lacks its full share of intellectuals and scholars valuing "learning" as you put it, or knowledge for its own sake, and having whatever "accessible opportunities" they seek, then that is unfortunate indeed - and it tells us more about those interpreting the world for you than it does about Harvard.</p>

<p>What is sadly typical is that those convinced of the virtues of some other school seem constitutionally incapable of expressing their convictions without running down Harvard in the process. It is as if there were no standards of excellence in academia - or at least at certain institutions - except caculating how you stack up against Harvard. Building yourself up, it seems, necessarily requires tearing down Harvard.</p>

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<p>Byerly, there is no point in responding. I have repeatedly pointed out that Harvard is one of the best schools in the country. I have pointed out that while Princeton may have an advantage over Harvard in some aspects and may be better for some people, likewise Harvard has some advantages and is better for some people. My conclusions were drawn from personal experience, the advice of students and graduates of both schools, and empirical studies. I am not tearing down Harvard. I have REPEATEDLY pointed out positive aspects of the Harvard education. I have simply pointed out, as well, some aspects that I think Princeton holds an advantage in. This doesn't mean that Harvard is poor in these areas; it means I think Princeton is better. Similarly, in other areas Harvard is better. I do not think one school is better than another, simply that they have different strengths. EVERYTHING I have seen, even the testimonials of proponents of Harvard, has served to reinforce these views. </p>

<p>And really, what standard is there in a "Harvard/Princeton" thread other than Harvard versus Princeton? We are comparing. By building up Harvard, you have engaged in tearing down Princeton. It's a two-way street in a comparing process.</p>