Harvard or Princeton?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Princeton University
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<p>I defy you to point to a single instance where I "have engaged in tearing down Princeton" as an academic institution. </p>

<p>You on the other hand, have concentrated on making a negative case: Harvard, you say, (1) lacks "intellectual openness" (whatever <em>that</em> is; (2) is only for those interested in a "career that involves cutthroat competition"; (3) discourages the developmant of "skills such as collaboration and cooperation"; (4) is "all about success (and not) about learning" ... yaddadayaddadayaddada. You haven't heard word one from me throwing out these cliches - or any counter cliches. Mainly because I think its all a lot of bull ... intended to play up alleged differences where there are none.</p>

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<p>
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Mainly because I think its all a lot of bull ... intended to play up alleged differences where there are none.

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There are no differences? Hmm.</p>

<p>I have to say, this thread is much better when people avoid the personal attacks. Byerly, you should not bring up that Drossel's kids are homeschooled. That is his personal information and his to share. </p>

<p>You don't have kids going through this process right now. So your personal issues aren't there for all to Google. Please quit going after the people and stay focused on on the ideas.</p>

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<p>He HAS brought it up, alumother, and has shared it at great (some might even say excessive) length - even as others have made hundreds of posts about their children .... that is an important part of who he is and informs his view about everything. I have known a number of home schooled kids and have great admiration for parents willing to make the sacrifices involved. But that does not mean I don't believe those in this position can't have trouble "letting go."</p>

<p>There was a great three-part story in the Boston Globe last year about a home-schooled girl - basically blind - who struggled to make her way at Harvard ... with her parents being both part of the solution ... and part of the problem.</p>

<p>You are overly sensitive and wide of the mark as usual.</p>

224

<p>wow, you old people need to get a life and stop being obsessed with your undergraduate experiances and school pushings</p>

<p>step back and think about it: You spend hundreds of hours socializing with 15-18 year olds? Trying to push one school? Are you all being paid by these universities?</p>

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<p>Byerly, your last sentence to Alumother is disrespectful.</p>

<p>HC240, I just love it when people who are posting here on cc tell other people who post here to get a life!</p>

226

<p>HC240...Just between you and me. We bill the University.</p>

<p>Byerly is on payroll:)</p>

227

<p>As my son is just finishing his freshman year at Harvard, I feel compelled to weigh in on this debate. </p>

<p>First and foremost, I can tell you that he is extremely happy, has found a wonderful group of (down-to-earth) guy and girl friends, and he has found most of his courses to be excellent (and taught by PROFS!). And despite being a pre-medical student, he has not found the school to be cut-throat as has been suggested. There is, in fact, little discussion of grades, and he and his friends help each other on problem sets and the like.</p>

<p>I will agree that Harvard is a place where students comfortable with taking initiative will do best. My son, in attempting to find a research position for the summer, experienced this: no one held his hand, and he initially struggled to find a direction. Ultimately, tho, he did get wonderful advice and suggestions for contacts from one of his life sciences profs. Recently, he was offered a fabulous opportunity: he will be working in a lab at the Harvard Medical School. Needless to say, he's thrilled. </p>

<p>My son has also had a wonderful time with his ec's. He's active in one of the political organizations, and has met many famous politicians who've come to speak. He is also on the jv tennis team, has met some great kids, travelled to various tournaments, etc.</p>

<p>And as for the area, he loves Cambridge and Boston, which, among other things, has afforded him the opportunity to keep up with friends at such schools as Tufts and BU. He has also gone to museums, a Red Sox game, wonderful restaurants, great late nite snack places, etc. </p>

<p>In sum, Harvard has met or exceeded all his expectations. As an independent and assertive youngster, it is a great fit for him.</p>

228

<p>Byerly,</p>

<p>I know Drossel has posted that information elsewhere. But he didn't post it here. People should have the right to discuss what they want to discuss about their own history. To me, anything else is rude. We as parents of kids going through college applications are in an intense phase of life. Some of us use this site in part for a support system. You are here only to advocate for a university and have no need to ever reveal personal data.</p>

<p>So it's unfair of you to to use our words against us. Let those who are concerned about veracity search and follow down every possible piece of evidence that our statements are biased and by what. Let everyone else just interact as they want.</p>

229

<p>"I will agree that Harvard is a place where students comfortable with taking initiative will do best."</p>

<p>And this is also true of Princeton, if truth be told. There are many opportunities for all sorts of funding, etc., but it is up to the student to take advantage of them. The residential college deans offer encouragement, however, and above all the students are incredibly helpful to one another. Students at both of these schools and similar ones gain admission because they are go-getters. If a student is looking for hand-holding I am not sure that schools this high-powered are the place for them.</p>

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<p>All the professors I've talked to who've taught at both Princeton and Harvard say that the most striking difference between harvard and Princeton is that there is a lot more hand-holding going on in the latter place.</p>

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<p>Well, hand-holding is a disparaging term for it, but eighteen-year-old kids often benefit from guidance, whether they are capable of learning without it or not.</p>

<p>"I defy you to point to a single instance where I "have engaged in tearing down Princeton" as an academic institution. </p>

<p>You on the other hand, have concentrated on making a negative case: Harvard, you say, (1) lacks "intellectual openness" (whatever <em>that</em> is; (2) is only for those interested in a "career that involves cutthroat competition"; (3) discourages the developmant of "skills such as collaboration and cooperation"; (4) is "all about success (and not) about learning" ... yaddadayaddadayaddada. You haven't heard word one from me throwing out these cliches - or any counter cliches. Mainly because I think its all a lot of bull ... intended to play up alleged differences where there are none."</p>

<p>And I think Harvard's perceived superiority to every university in every way is a lot of bull. But, Byerly, let's go back to the rest of your point: I never said Harvard lacks intellectual openness, merely that it is MORE goal-oriented than Princeton and that thus encourages exploration and discussion LESS than Princeton. This does not mean that Harvard is lacking in these areas, simply that Princeton is stronger. As I think Princeton is probably the strongest school in the country in some of these respects, that is hardly bashing Harvard. It is simply comparing. I'm sorry if it bothers you that my comparisons don't always show Harvard coming out on top; I just don't think it is superior in every way to Princeton. I never said that it was only for those interested in a career involving cutthroat competition, but that its GREATEST strength is in fostering qualities that allow students to succeed in that environment, such as independence and initiative. And so on and so on ... for each point I made that Princeton was more structured to support certain aspects of education, you insist that I was saying Harvard was poor in these areas. I was not. I was only saying that Princeton was better. This is a comparison. </p>

<p>You blame supporters of Princeton for tearing down Harvard. We are simply attempting to move past your obvious assurance that Harvard MUST be better than Princeton in EVERY way to point out that the schools have different focuses and structures and thus have different advantages. We may throw out generalizations and cliches; you throw out prejudices as well, predicated on the idea that Harvard always has been and always will be utterly superior to every other school. We at least attempt to address you without being condescending and accusatory. </p>

<p>And for the last time: I think Harvard is an amazing school in just about every way. Better than almost every school in the country. I think the same of Princeton. I don't wish to tear down either, merely to understand each better. End of story.</p>

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<p>There's a difference between "hand-holding" and necessary guidance. It's all fine and well for Harvard to stand and scoff at Princeton and other schools and dismiss guidance for students as "hand-holding", but sometimes a little advice to an 18 year old preparing for the world out there comes in handy. As for getting getting friendly professors to help out with research, why SHOULD that be a battle when you're paying $42,000 a year for it? If your goal is to learn for four years, why have needless barriers in the way? Princeton's merely giving students the best bang for their buck.</p>

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<p>Byerly--I too found your posts to Drosselmeier and Alumother somewhat disrespectful. Homeschooling is a perfectly acceptable option for many people and the only reason you apparently mentioned it was to lead to an inference that Drosselmeier was overly controlling and couldn't let go. Frankly, it might well be inferred that someone who apparently spends most of his/her life posting on college confidential as you do has a bit of a problem with a controlling nature and letting go (or else has absolutely no life whatsover, which is a bit sad).</p>

<p>There have been many interesting perspectives on Princeton and Harvard. My bottom line is that they are both wonderful schools with great things to offer. The students at both schools are eager and questioning, the professors have much to offer and the resources for students are extraordinary. Minor differences in ranking of departments do not strike me as very important. If the OP is still around, I would simply recommend that you visit both schools and go where you feel most comfortable.</p>

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<p>For undergrad I would definately go with Princeton.</p>

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<p>Midatlmom</p>

<p>I frind <em>your</em> post disrespectful. And not just "somewhat", either. </p>

<p>That said, your advice to visit any school you are considering is sound, if hardly out of the ordinary.</p>

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<p>Re hand-holding, clearly we need to define our terms. In my d's experience most Princeton professors in seminar courses are extremely eager and willing to spend time out of class with students, email back and forth, offer advice about the future, etc. It's wonderful. All this happens, for the most part, though, when the student is outgoing and dedicated enough to convey a serious interest in a subject or field.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
He HAS brought it up, alumother, and has shared it at great (some might even say excessive) length - even as others have made hundreds of posts about their children .... that is an important part of who he is and informs his view about everything.

[/quote]
I obviously don’t think this is so unreasonable. I can’t exactly imagine a guy being a husband and dad and somehow being able to live in the world not being informed by what he is. It is like being a human and yet being able to look at the world quite easily as a dog would. I can’t pull that one off. I am not really interested in trying either.</p>

<p>I am a husband and a dad. I am not sure what that means to people here, but to me it means that whatever I do, wherever I am, someone very close to me is being affected by it. But additionally, I am a dad who is directly responsible for the education of his kids. I am the teacher, the principal, the friend, the leader, the follower, and the Guidance Counselor to my students. This means I have an obligation to do the best I can to be able to counsel my students about their choice of classes, schools, and careers.</p>

<p>I am doing my job, and I am doing it for as long as my kids are under my roof. I happen to have a lot of very strong willed kids who, when I counsel them against something they want, will often try to justify their desires by demanding I produce evidence to support my opinion. The last time this happened regarding Harvard, I was not as prepared for it as I would have liked. Apparently I am now prepared.</p>

<p>I joined this thread because it concerns two schools, Harvard and Princeton, and which of the two is preferable to the other. Based upon all I have read, it is my opinion that the clear choice is Princeton and I have tried to be clear as to WHY I think as I do. Others have disagreed and they have relied on positive reports on Harvard to support their view. That is entirely legitimate. My displaying reports of negative issues on Harvard to support my opinion is just as legitimate in a discussion of this sort-- especially if those reports are supported by credible sources (like Harvard graduates, Harvard students, Harvard officials, Harvard newspapers, magazines and other periodicals).</p>

<p>There really is no room for making this a personal issue. While I have no problem discussing my personal role as a homeschooling parent, the fact is that my choice to homeschool or whether I am a “controlling” parent fails to address or correct my opinion. So the opinion seems still quite valid to me, and I think what is going on here now is just a fallacious distraction from it.</p>

<p>
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I have known a number of home schooled kids and have great admiration for parents willing to make the sacrifices involved. But that does not mean I don't believe those in this position can't have trouble "letting go."

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C’mon man. Even people who aren’t homeschoolers often have problems “letting go”, probably more often than homeschoolers do. The issue is so common there are tons of stereotypes on it, none of them having to do with homeschoolers. So there seems to be no point here other than your trying to unfairly imply I am having this problem. I personally don’t think this is an honorable way to deal with people. But hey, what you do doesn’t really reflect on me at all. So, do what you gotta do.</p>

<p>Okay, just hopping in to make the thing clear to you and everyone else. [hopping back out]</p>

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<p>
[quote]
There's a difference between "hand-holding" and necessary guidance. It's all fine and well for Harvard to stand and scoff at Princeton and other schools and dismiss guidance for students as "hand-holding", but sometimes a little advice to an 18 year old preparing for the world out there comes in handy.

[/quote]

Gotta affirm you CautiousPessimism. I personally think when Harvard people denigrate Princeton's program as "handholding" they are in fact making excuses for a severe defect in Harvard's program. It seems to me a lack of guidance is one of the TOPMOST issues that Harvard students complain about. Sure, a lot of students get along without it. But it is STILL not a virtue and so many Harvard students see it as a defect that I think Harvard has finally put something in place (I think I remember reading how they have recently gotten some little thing up and going to take care of this PROBLEM). I don't mean to sound nasty here, but I just don't buy the Harvard spin on its lack of advising.</p>

<p>*Jennie Lin, a Harvard junior, said she thinks the review committee should recommend building a central advising office near the freshman dormitories on Harvard Yard.</p>

<p>"[Freshman advising] does not really exist," Lin said. "We don't have any centralized system. There's no place where freshmen can go."</p>

<p>Harvard government professor Harvey Mansfield, who serves as a freshman advisor, said Harvard first-years are given "a very fat catalog of courses," but little faculty guidance.</p>

<p>"They mainly get advice from other students, often their peers, even from the freshman class," Mansfield said. "It's certainly true that we need to do a better job of advising."*
<a href="http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=24481%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=24481&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Doesn't sound like the Harvard people are very proud of what's going on (or not) with advising here.</p>

<p>We really need to be honest. No matter how bright or self-motivated 18 year-old are, they TYPICALLY can use a good bit of guidance. Princeton has recognized this FAR longer than Harvard. It is just a fact. I think Princeton's being realistic here makes for a better freshman transition and a better overall undergraduate experience. It is just the clear choice between the two for undergrad in my opinion.</p>

<p>And that junior and senior thesis thing can't be beat - anywhere (also in my opinion).</p>

<p>
[quote]
As for getting getting friendly professors to help out with research, why SHOULD that be a battle when you're paying $42,000 a year for it?

[/quote]
It shouldn't be a battle at all. Even researchers can benefit greatly from teaching. Harvard people call this "hand-holding". I call it education. I just reject the Harvard philosophy that I am seeing cropping up here. If it works for Harvard folks (which obviously it isn't, since they are actually trying to CHANGE it), then fine. In my view, Princeton can't be touched for undergrad education.</p>

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If your goal is to learn for four years, why have needless barriers in the way? Princeton's merely giving students the best bang for their buck.

[/quote]

I think Harvard folks will say stuff about self-motivation and persistence and stuff like that. All the self-motivation in the world won't really help you get the best education possible if you don't have reasonable access to the experts so that they can help you work smart. Harvard kids ARE getting guidance from somewhere. They HAVE to have it. They are getting it from other kids. This works for some. But I personally don't think it makes for a superior undergrad program across the board - well, not when it comes to comparing it to Princeton's program.</p>

<p>Just my opinion. Ignore it or accept it.</p>

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<p>lol, this thread just makes me laugh. everyone thinks they know so much about Harvard, yet everything they say goes contrary to the experiences of students who actually attend Harvard. Yes, Harvard is trying to restructure its advising program...in fact, it has just created a new Peer Advising program in conjuction with the already existing academic advising. Why? Because surveys have shown students weigh advice from friends and upperclassmen more heavily than any faculty or academic advisor. That doesn't mean that the advising system at Harvard right now is deficient, just that Harvard has recognized a better way of advising its students.</p>

<p>As to having to fight for a thesis advisor or attention from a professor...HAH. I've been to several of my professor's office hours, including Professor Sandel's last semester (who teaches the largest class at Harvard: Justice, which has over 1000 students) and they have all been more than friendly and approachable. Professors here encourage students all the time to go and talk to them. </p>

<p>When I say "hand-holding", I don't mean that Harvard ignores you and make you find your own way. Hell no. What I mean is that Harvard also expects you to act like responsible teenagers and take some initiative. You don't have to know exactly what you want to do. I have no clue. I'm currently contemplating over 5 concentration choices. But there is no one here to hold my hand and say "now, honey, why don't you try this concentration and attend this meeting to see if you like, and if you don't, why don't you try that instead?" If I need help as to which professor I should talk to, my academic advisor lives next-door to me. Or I could go to the gazillion concentration fairs/meetings Harvard holds. Or I could shoot an email to a professor. Or I could talk to some upperclassmen. But I'm expected to take the initiative and realize "I have no bloody idea of what I want to do and who should I talk to to figure that out?"</p>

<p>Seriously, this denigrating of Harvard as a cold, competitive place where students are left to fend for themselves and professors don't give a heck about them is just plain ridiculous.</p>

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<p>The cliches used by trolls for other schools to "run down" Harvard are intended, presumably, to make the favored school look better. </p>

<p>Apparently mere praise for the favored school is seen as insufficient to win over the hearts and minds of most top applicants. </p>

<p>History has shown that these applicants - intelligent as they are - recognize the tactic for what it is, and overwhelmingly prefer Harvard if offered a choice.</p>