Harvard or Princeton?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Princeton University
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<p>Many choose Harvard for the same reason many respond to advertising; they confuse the sizzle with the steak.</p>

<p>None of the choosers has attended the school. None has any real idea what life at the school is like, 24/7, over months or years. Each, on the other hand, is aware of the Harvard reputation, many are dazzled by it, but are unaware that much of the positive press and prominent people having to do with Harvard are not connected to the undergraduate institution.</p>

<p>This generalized Harvard sizzle factor blinds many to important undergrad-related facts vis a vis other fine schools: the student-faculty ratio, the alumni giving ratio, the undergrad to grad student ratio. </p>

<p>So powerful is the allure of the name Harvard that many ignore the best possible kind of evidence (arising, as it does, from internally amassed data), the information in the oft-posted Boston Globe article which recites shocking dissatisfaction in the class of 2003 with life at the school and many of its professors and classes.</p>

<p>It's pure sophistry to argue that because most with the option choose Harvard over other schools that Harvard is a better undergrad institution. Those kids are buying on spec.</p>

<p>I'm not optimistic that you'll do this, but just for fun, Byerly, step away from your role as the Scott McClellen of Harvard, assume a devil's advocate posture, pull that Globe piece, and quote from it here in support of what I'm arguing. The picture that will emerge, I think, is that the steak is a far cry from the sizzle.</p>

242

<p>lol, here we go again: Harvard students only chose Harvard for the name, whereas students who chose Yale or Princeton chose it because they understood the true quality of those schools. Anything new to say? That Harvard students are competitive and Princeton students are not? That Harvard students aren't happy and Princeton students are? That Harvard doesn't care about its undergrads but Princeton does? Did I miss anything?</p>

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<br>

<p>So if Harvard really isn't all that good, how did it develop and how does it manage to keep all that brand name allure? The school has been around for 370 years; that's more than enough time for people to see through a facade. If there weren't a lot of real quality behind the name, the public's attention would have long since moved off on to other schools.</p>

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<p>There IS a lot of "real quality" behind the name, no doubt about it. No one disputes that Harvard's among the finest colleges in the country. But you and the guy who posted before you need to read more carefully. The issue isn't quality versus a lack thereof, it's is the school IN FACT everything that incoming freshmen suppose it to be. And my suggestion is that when you have internally generated (i.e. Harvard-derived/non-biased) data indicating a sizeable gap between the perception and the reality, with a conclusion that Harvard students are dissatisfied with a number of important aspects of the school, that the lie has been put to Byerly's claim that because most of those with a choice choose Harvard over all others, Harvard therefore is a better school.</p>

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<p>If Harvard is a "better" school, in the eyes of applicants, year after year after year, that is a function, presumably, of - </p>

<p>(1) getting "better" students (including the lion's share of the superstar common admits so avidly sought by YSP as well.) Studies show that good students want to be where their peers congregate in the greatest number;</p>

<p>(2) having "better" faculty, as measured by awards, publications and other measures of excellence, and lured by higher salaries;</p>

<p>(3) having "better" physical resources (except for the mediocre basketball court!); and </p>

<p>(4) underestimated as a factor, the Boston/Cambridge area is a magnet for students from across the country and around the world, and often dubbed America's quintessential college town. (Many cross admits will say the attractions of Boston/Cambridge were the tipping point in choosing a school.)
<a href="http://www.epodunk.com/top10/colleges/index.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.epodunk.com/top10/colleges/index.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>UNDERSTAND: These are possible REASONS that the overwhelming majority of students choose Harvard over peer schools to which they are also admitted. The RP ranking is not the REASON they do so, but merely evidence of the fact that they do.</p>

<p>This may not seem altogether fair to those who view their favorite school as "better" according to factors of their own chosing, but as John F. Kennedy said: Life is Unfair.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.educause.edu/ir/library/pdf/ffp9901.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.educause.edu/ir/library/pdf/ffp9901.pdf&lt;/a>
<a href="http://inequality.cornell.edu/publications/working_papers/RobertFrank1.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://inequality.cornell.edu/publications/working_papers/RobertFrank1.pdf&lt;/a>
<a href="http://post.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/hoxby/papers/revealedprefranking.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://post.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/hoxby/papers/revealedprefranking.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>cncm:</p>

<p>
[quote]
lol, here we go again: Harvard students only chose Harvard for the name, whereas students who chose Yale or Princeton chose it because they understood the true quality of those schools. Anything new to say?

[/quote]
I think the point I am seeing here from Joebob is that despite serious structural problems to what really matters, in my opinion, its undergrad program, Harvard still attracts kids. It can do this because kids aren’t usually the most sophisticated consumers, even the brightest of them. They are star struck by luminaries, a storied past, and by grad school reputation.</p>

<p>Many, like you, get on fine once they get in and see where the land lays. That is because Harvard DOES have awesome researchers (who, despite their individual awards, seem too often to lack ability as a teaching faculty). Harvard DOES have great facilities due to its investment in its grad schools. And it attracts smart kids, which obviously is not enough to offset the problems, hence Harvard’s lack of student satisfaction.</p>

<p>Maybe in your case you are concentrating in the right academic field, with just the right people around you. It seems for many others, too many others, dissatisfaction has obviously set in because with all the sizzle they heard before buying the Harvard steak, they expected a lot more meat.</p>

<p>Take a look at this, for example:</p>

<p>**Core Curriculum, I Loathe You
Published On Monday, October 03, 2005 12:00 AM
By TRAVIS R. KAVULLA*</p>

<p>I loathe you firstly, Core Curriculum, because you know not who you are. Once you were a Christian education, then a liberal and general education, and now you are assorted “modes of inquiry”—a term that would be vapid even if it delivered on its promised goods. Is it not baneful that you, Core, are telling lies, that your “approaches to knowledge” exist in name only, that your pedagogy is a ruse which keeps asunder the rigor of departmental courses and the silliness of your look-alikes?*
<a href="http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=508870%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=508870&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Why do you suppose this issue is now SOOOOOOO important to this kid? Do you really think when he got that acceptance letter he knew of it and knew how important it would eventually be to him? Not a chance. Yet the truth was just SITTING before him right out in the open. He just didn’t see it, despite his smarts. He didn’t see it likely because he was just a kid, like so many teens who even today are hoping to go to Harvard. This sort of stuff just isn’t important to them, until later.</p>

<p>I think you have a point about why kids probably choose Princeton or Yale. They probably choose these schools for many of the same reasons they choose Harvard. I mean, after all, these schools have the big named professors too. They have the big names, the great facilities too. But the difference, in my opinion, is that it seems to me Princeton actually lives up to its sizzle for the overwhelming majority of Princeton’s customers.</p>

<p>That means your kid, whether he is a self-starter or a shy follower is more likely to get the greatest education possible, if he can survive the system. The system itself is superior, with components that all are at or near the quality of Harvard’s, and that are conducive to the best kinds of learning (i.e. independent, collaborative, one-on-one professors, etc.).</p>

<p>Sure, you have the eating club issue, and I have heard Harvard people here really hammering Princeton about it. But come on. That just has nothing at all to do with fundamental education. Eating clubs are a sideshow at Princeton where education is concerned. They can easily be avoided or enjoyed. But when it comes to Harvard’s structural issues, we are talking something that relates directly to the institution’s basic educational mission. That is why it is my opinion that Princeton is the better choice for undergrads.</p>

<p>My opinion comes from reading many reports and articles that ALL say the same thing! Check it out:</p>

<p>[Harvard] may pride itself on the fact that there is a professor for every 11 undergrads and that three fourths of its classes have 20 or fewer students, but students still complained about the inaccessibility of faculty as well as the **quality of instruction and advising*.</p>

<p>Today's undergrads echo the findings. "If you come here expecting to work one on one with professors," says econ major Michael Kopko, "don't hold your breath." Profs at Harvard may be undeniably brilliant. This is the home, after all, of a genuine all-star team of big brains, including psychologist Steven Pinker, African-American studies guru Henry Louis Gates, and economic historian Niall Ferguson. Students regularly stand and applaud at the end of some large lectures. But that doesn't make the school a cuddly place. "They sell the college like it's Amherst" --small classes, close contact with faculty--says recent graduate Matt Mahan, "but we're not even close." At smaller schools, he says, "you're going to have substantive academic conversations with professors who know your name. Here, you see a famous professor walk through the yard, and it's almost mutual avoidance."*</p>

<p>This is why I completely dismiss the numbers Harvard people throw around here to claim Harvard is a superior school. That stuff is just a bunch of glitter thrown on manure. Yeah Harvard may have super great professors. But if they can't or won't teach <a href="http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20060306&s=trb030606%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20060306&s=trb030606&lt;/a>, they are obviously no good as teachers. If a guy has $1000 and keeps it all for himself. But another guy has $1, but is willing to share $.25 of it with you, the $1 guy is just plain better, I don’t care HOW much the other guy has. Where Harvard and Princeton are concerned, the difference ain’t nearly so great.</p>

<p>Here is another quote from the article:</p>

<p>"I'm going to graduate from Harvard and not really know what I learned," laments Alicia Menendez, a women's studies major. The early reports from one curricular-review committee seemed to validate her complaints, concluding recently that the Core "may serve to constrain intellectual development."
<a href="http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/articles/brief/06harvard_brief.php%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/articles/brief/06harvard_brief.php&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Now surely you can see why I, as a counselor to my kids, might have some SERIOUS issues with Harvard, concluding it may not be the right fit for them or even for most 18 year-olds. Yeah, I know you disagree with my view. That is just fine. But surely you can at least see how one might hold the view without you saying it is “ridiculous”.</p>

<p>You are obviously having a ball at Harvard. I think that is great. You help me see that it is possible to enjoy the school. But others are showing me there are structural problems with the school’s education system that can just as easily be destructive to them as it is helpful to you. I mean, we are talking one of Harvard’s curricular-review committees saying the Core Curriculum "may serve to constrain intellectual development." I didn’t say this. HARVARD said it. Now don’t you think I need to really take care in view of this?</p>

<p>This discussion here has pretty much nailed the final nails in the Harvard coffin in my view because all that has happened in response has been personal attacks, profanity, political spin, and angry dismissals. So I still maintain the view. I just have no other choice. I am really REALLY trying not to post here again, but I thought you seemed reasonable enough to at least see how I came to the view. But if you can’t see it now, then, well, I just don’t think I can be any clearer with it.</p>

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<p>Dross, you remind me a bit of my father. I work on matters that get written up in the press with some regularity. When he reads about them, he calls me to tell me what happened. When I say (as I often do), no that’s not really quite how it happened, he says, yes it is. I say, but dad, I was there. Doesn’t matter. He insists that I’m wrong because he read something else in the paper.</p>

<p>The posters here who actually go to, have gone to or have children who go to Harvard uniformly disagree with your view of Harvard. Is it perfect? No. Neither is Princeton or Yale. Are there some unhappy students at Harvard? Yes. I’ve known some of them. Are there unhappy students at Princeton and Yale? Yes. I’ve known some of them too. But the vast majority of students at all three schools are happy and get a great education.</p>

<p>That said, if you choose to stop your children from going to Harvard, it’s certainly not the end of the world. There are lots of good schools out there, and plenty of other kids who would be thrilled to get a seat at Harvard. No reason for anyone to go there who doesn’t really want to (or whose parents don’t really want them to).</p>

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<p>This thread reminds me of a ball of thread that keeps unraveling as the cat chases it around the house.</p>

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<p>I feel that this thread has gone too far from the question originally being asked.</p>

<p>"To be honest, I don't see Princeton's Eating Clubs as a big deal. It's just another, more unique form of dining. Yes, some are exclusive, but so are fraternities.
The question I have regarding Harvard and Princeton is which school would be better if I am interested in politics and law school? Princeton has Woody Woo, and Harvard has the JFK Institute. <em>Sigh</em>, so many things to consider...
I know we've established that getting into the top graduate schools is easier from Harvard... but hypothetically, if I end up in the top half of my Princeton class, would I be able to attend a top law school as easily if I were in the top half of my class at Harvard? I know it's pretty much impossible to answer this hypothetical question, but these are the things I am mulling over...
Also, has anyone ever heard of someone transferring from Princeton to Harvard? I feel as though, if worse comes to worse, I can always transfer out of Princeton, but I'll never be able to transfer into Princeton since they don't accept transfers.
Finally, I want to thank everyone for your help! You guys have some very good observations and factoids to share."</p>

<p>Can we somehow summon Preguntas to check whether s/he is satisfied with the info?</p>

<p>Preguntas, are you <em>even</em> reading all the rhetorics that are being thrown around?</p>

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<p>
[quote]
The posters here who actually go to, have gone to or have children who go to Harvard uniformly disagree with your view of Harvard.

[/quote]
C’mon guy. We are only talking of a handful of people at best, cosar. A handful out of thousands. We need something like this to give us a better image of Harvard’s student body:</p>

<p>**Student life at Harvard lags peer schools, poll finds*
By Marcella Bombardieri, Globe Staff | March 29, 2005
Student satisfaction at Harvard College ranks near the bottom of a group of 31 elite private colleges, according to an analysis of survey results that finds that Harvard students are disenchanted with the faculty and social life on campus.*
<a href="http://www.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2005/03/29/student_life_at_harvard_lags_peer_schools_poll_finds/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2005/03/29/student_life_at_harvard_lags_peer_schools_poll_finds/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>From the moment he arrived, Summers understood the embarrassing fact that Harvard is great because we admit great students, not because we give them a great faculty-led education. Of course, the students know this too, explaining why **Harvard students rate their educational experience less positively than the students at almost all of our peer institutions.
<a href="http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=511574%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=511574&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Now if I am trying to get an idea of how Harvard students feel about their school, especially in relation to how students at other schools feel, am I really to just ignore the sort of information above just because you say you are doing fine? I just think that is unreasonable.</p>

<p>And it is also unreasonable to demand that I personally attend Harvard in order to come to an informed conclusion about the school. When I am able to corroborate the same things repeatedly, in broad searches, from different people, from different reports, well, I think I have a legitimate basis on which to form a conclusion.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Is it perfect? No. Neither is Princeton or Yale.

[/quote]
Surely you see how unfair this is. The issue has never concerned “perfection”. It has never concerned how similar I am to your father. You know, haha. C’mon. Bringing up this stuff here is fallacious. For my part, I just have no interest in employing this kind of stuff against you.</p>

<p>The issue I have mentioned here concerns many people-- Harvard people – Harvard people who have publicly corroborated the existence of a serious problem with the very thing that one goes to college for—an education.</p>

<p>The existence of the problem is being supported by studies, by anecdote, by officials, reported in the press and its possibly even being demonstrated here, since rather than admit the problem or counter it, Harvard supporters are inappropriately talking about “perfection” as if such a thing was ever an issue. If you want to end the discussion, that’s fine. I’d like to end it too. But it seems to me we should be honest here about what we are each trying to say to one another.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Are there some unhappy students at Harvard? Yes. I’ve known some of them. Are there unhappy students at Princeton and Yale? Yes. I’ve known some of them too. But the vast majority of students at all three schools are happy and get a great education.

[/quote]
Perhaps, but it seems a more authoritative study maintains that “Student satisfaction at Harvard College ranks near the bottom of a group of 31 elite private colleges…” So I don’t think I yet have reason to buy this idea that some students are equally unhappy at these schools.</p>

<p>
[quote]
That said, if you choose to stop your children from going to Harvard, it’s certainly not the end of the world.

[/quote]
Whew. I’m really glad you let me know this, cosar, because, you know, I was just sitting here trembling and thinking “whoa. This is gonna be the end of the world”.</p>

<p>C’mon. I wonder if you are being serious with this stuff. I’m not ‘stopping’ my kid from applying anywhere. Last year I had a conversation about this issue with my D before SHE applied to Harvard, bringing up some of the same concerns. She applied anyway and there was no big deal about it. I sincerely backed her wishes even though I disagreed with them.</p>

<p>I will do likewise with my S if he chooses to apply. But while he has not yet applied I wish to do my part and help him see all the facts so that when he chooses, he chooses intelligently and not in the way so many kids choose. I do feel a lot more confident in my views this time around, and I think I have more evidence to support it. But I am just a counselor when we deal in this stuff – not some tyrant. My kids know they can dismiss my view and that I will snap in line when the time comes to go for it. So, if he tries and manages to find his way into Harvard, I will support him and the school he chooses, even if that school is more brand than it is school.</p>

<p>Hey. No hard feelings. And I really wish you well.</p>

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<p>Against my better judgment, given that it's clear that your mind is made up and you have no interest in changing it, a couple of comments on the COFHE survey you keep citing (and which has become gospel for most Harvard-bashers).</p>

<ol>
<li><p>It's not and was never intended to be a statistically valid survey. It's a "voluntary response" survey - i.e., it's emailed to all students at the selected schools and those who choose to respond do so. The response rate varies widely from school to school. (I don't know about the Class of 2002 survey that the Globe cites, which is the most recent one, but a Harvard Crimson story about a prior COFHE survey indicated that the response rate at Harvard was low. It also indicated that at least some students treated it as a joke and gave joke answers - it's emailed to seniors in the spring, not always the best time for getting students to take such a survey seriously.) As such, the COFHE survey is a bit like an online poll. The results may be interesting, but they're not a basis for the conclusions that you and other Harvard-bashers always seem to want to draw.</p></li>
<li><p>The survey uses a standardized scale, but there's no way to control across schools for the students' interpretation of the scale. Byerly is fond of pointing to the surveys that find that Brigham Young has the best library system of any school in the country. That seems to say more about the Brigham Young students doing the rating than it does about the Brigham Young library system. By reputation anyway, Harvard students are notoriously difficult to please.</p></li>
<li><p>Despite the spin in the Globe story, the actual numerical differences between Harvard's numbers and other schools' were not that large.</p></li>
<li><p>The COFHE survey is typically used as Harvard has used it - not as a statistically valid means of comparing different schools, but as a means of alerting the schools that participate in the survey to concerns that the students responding to the survey choose to raise. </p></li>
</ol>

<p>What impressed me about the story is that Harvard did take those concerns seriously and has been systematically addressing them. The survey cited was taken from the Class of 2002 - students who started at Harvard in 1998. Harvard has already accomplished a number of changes since then - including the huge expansion of the freshman seminar program which provides freshmen with access to senior professors in small groups - and more changes are on the way. Harvard does not believe in resting on its laurels, which is one of the reasons it's been able to maintain its reputation across the centuries.</p>

<p>And I never take hard feelings away from exchanges on anonymous internet chat boards. I wish you well too. :)</p>

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<p>Hey amigo, you can't credibly posit as your premise that the underlying data is unreliable, unreflective of reality, then conclude with the fact that Harvard took the results to heart and began to institute changes.</p>

<p>Clearly, were the conclusions of the study in fact the result of joke answers from too small a sample, the school wouldn't have viewed them as a legitimate basis for instituting core changes.</p>

<p>In logic, knowing that the conclusion is undisputed (here, that changes were made), permits equal certainty as to the premise. Did you miss that in Philosophy 101?</p>

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<p>Sorry amigo, I forgot about the studies (not a joke) that indicate that many people do not have the capacity to digest more than three points at any one time. But if you've now digested my first three points, you may want to go back and read point 4.</p>

<p>Harvard-bashers obviously have no interest in engaging in rational debate on the subject. Given that I don't have the stamina for responding to Harvard-bashing that some here have (or, should I say, that one here has), I'm going to exercise my better judgment and make the exit from this thread that I intended to make several pages ago.</p>

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<p>Don't be overly concerned, cosar. The fact that those pushing other colleges find it impossible to achieve their objective with positive postings, but feel compelled to bash Harvard in order to make their favorite look relatively better says more about them than it does about Harvard!</p>

<p>Its been that way for eons - not only on this site but elsewhere</p>

<hr>

<p>Herewith a reprise of my favorite "rivalries" post (by a Daily Cal writer a few years ago):</p>

<p>Rivalries: Put Up or Shut Up By Steven Friedman</p>

<p>Ignorance, I sometimes think, really can be bliss. Being completely ignorant about a subject gives you that beautifully naive outsider's perspective that someone wrapped up in and knowledgeable about a subject can't have.</p>

<p>I'm so ignorant about UC Berkeley -- no, I don't go here -- that I actually walked into the Bancroft Library the other day wearing a T-shirt that proclaimed "STANFORD UNIVERSITY."</p>

<p>At first I thought I was paranoid for thinking that everyone in the library was giving me evil looks. But the perfect truth of Woody Allen's catchphrase, "Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not after me," quickly proved itself true, as person after person pointed out to me that Stanford is UC Berkeley's mortal enemy.</p>

<p>This immediately reminded me of my university. Even before my freshman year at the University of Pennsylvania, I was continuously told that Penn's mortal enemy -- complete with our own version of the Big Game every year -- was another Ivy League competitor: Princeton University. So one day I e-mailed a Princeton friend to hear his take on it.</p>

<p>He laughed in his response. Even if it was over e-mail, I could still hear it. No one at Princeton knew we were "rivals" in any way, other than just playing a dinky football game against each other once a year. I realized what was up and quickly created an imaginary dialogue between our two universities and two other schools in the Ivy League: Harvard and Yale.</p>

<p>Penn, I've noticed, proudly declares to the world, "Harvard, Yale, Princeton and Penn are the four greatest universities in the world. So our only competitors are Harvard, Yale and Princeton." Princeton then replies, "What are you talking about, Penn? The three greatest universities are Harvard, Yale and Princeton. So our only competitors are Harvard and Yale." Yale then says, "What are you talking about, Princeton? The two greatest universities are Harvard and Yale, so Harvard is our only competitor." Harvard then says, "Ha! What are you talking about, Yale? We don't have any competitors..."</p>

<p>I witnessed this myself at the Penn-Princeton game, when Penn students chanted, "Princeton, you suck!" and the Princetonians just quietly stood there, as if to say, "Whatever you say, Penn." Later, I saw a Yalie wearing a shirt that read "Harvard sucks and Princeton doesn't matter."</p>

<p>And Princeton is right. They're a better school than Penn precisely because they have the quiet and honest confidence to be able to stand there and listen to us. And Harvard is better than Yale because they have enough quiet and honest confidence that they don't need to wear "Yale sucks" T-shirts. Because they believe it, they don't have to shout it.</p>

<p>The same seems to apply to UC Berkeley. Stanford, sincerely confident in its stature, doesn't need to scream its hatred for Berkeley from rooftops. Still, this doesn't keep them from doing the same to Harvard, by wearing "Harvard -- the Stanford of the East" T-shirts. We don't see any of these T-shirts in reverse in Cambridge, though.</p>

<p>The way to greatness, as Harvard has recognized, is not to tell competitors how much better you are than them. Instead, you must quietly and confidently work at being best. Harvard has internalized Margaret Thatcher's summary of such competition: "Being powerful is like being a lady. If you have to say you are, you aren't."</p>

<p>Berkeley will truly triumph over Stanford the day when its undergrads stop saying how powerful they are, and instead, start believing it.</p>

<p>[Steven Morgan Friedman, a senior history and English major at the University of Pennsylvania, thinks Berkeley is Penn's only rival.]</p>

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<p>Haha...awesome article. I noticed it myself when I made my college tours. At Princeton, there was a lot of Harvard and Yale bashing. At Yale, there was a lot of Harvard bashing. At Harvard? Princeton was never even mentioned and Yale only in passing because of the annual Harvard-Yale game.</p>

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<p>Your points: </p>

<p>1) The survey was statistically invalid, its' conclusions arising from joke answers from too small a sample;
2) The scale employed was subjectively interpreted and therefore inconsistently perceived as between/among students and schools;
3) The resultant level of dissatisfaction among Harvard students was unremarkable;
4) The purpose of the statistically invalid data amassed was simply to suggest possible areas of concern among students.</p>

<p>And last, nevertheless "Harvard did take those concerns seriously and has been systematically addressing them."</p>

<p>Your first three points argue that the survey was fatally flawed and that the results of it--to the extent, presumably, that any useful information could be drawn from it--are statistically insignificant. Point four goes to motive, the intent of the survey, with you arguing its narrowness apparently to further marginalize the results.</p>

<p>Now we get down to the main question: Why, if the data collected was unreliable, did Harvard rely upon it? Why, if the data collected simply reflected joke answers from a few goofy seniors, did Harvard institute significant changes? Why, if students really weren't dissatisfied with important aspects of the school, did Harvard conclude changes should be made and begin to make them?</p>

<p>The obvious answer--unless you want to claim that the school's actions were wholly irrational, which would be silly--is that the school took a much different view of the survey and the data it produced than you would have us believe, concluding it provided a tenable basis, if not a compelling reason, for instituting reform.</p>

<p>As they say in the law, evidence of subsequent repair is powerful proof of a defective condition. What we have here is analogous. Smart people, with the reputation of Harvard at stake, don't institute fundamental change without a very good reason.</p>

<p>Your claim that the survey is meaningless is dead as disco the moment you admit to Harvard's response to it.</p>

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<p>"dead as disco"??? How quaint!</p>

258

<p>I stole it from "Get Shorty," the scene in Harry Zimm's office where Ronnie gives Harry a preview of coming attractions should he not come up with money owed to Ronnie & Bo. </p>

<p>(Fans will recall that Ray Bones later shot Ronnie, before Harry gave him any money).</p>

259

<p>
[quote]
Against my better judgment, given that it's clear that your mind is made up and you have no interest in changing it, a couple of comments on the COFHE survey you keep citing (and which has become gospel for most Harvard-bashers).

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Of course I can’t change my mind if I can’t find information sufficient to cause the change. Yours is the very first response making an attempt to address the valid concerns about Harvard. I already knew of these points, however. You submit insufficient information to warrant a change of mind because this survey is only one piece of a large set of data informing my opinion. And even this information you have submitted here was by your own admission significant enough to cause Harvard to take it seriously. So it seems to me I should also take it seriously and not discount it as you are suggesting I do.</p>

<p>Basically, the overall point I am making here is that it seems Harvard has a problem with its educational system, particularly its faculty and curriculum. These are the very things that lie at the heart of education! I can’t imagine that you cannot see the importance of this point. The curriculum seems defective and the faculty apparently do not like teaching and advising undergraduates. Change will necessarily come slowly on both issues because many faculty are tenured and, as one Harvard prof put it (to actually defend not accounting for his time)</p>

<p>* "Once someone is a tenured professor, they answer to God."*
<a href="http://www.usnews.com/usnews/opinion/articles/060410/10edit.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.usnews.com/usnews/opinion/articles/060410/10edit.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>These folks have the power and the obvious will to simply say “NO!” should their boss ask them to serve undergrads:
<a href="http://select.nytimes.com/gst/tsc.html?URI=http://select.nytimes.com/2006/02/25/opinion/25tierney.html&OQ=_rQ3D1&OP=47857bc3Q2FQ25ckQ3DQ25Q3AQ3C1ggQ3AQ25UOOQ20Q25OUQ25UpQ25glDQ5DDgQ5DQ25UpQ3ADk1Q5DkqJKQ3AeB%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://select.nytimes.com/gst/tsc.html?URI=http://select.nytimes.com/2006/02/25/opinion/25tierney.html&OQ=_rQ3D1&OP=47857bc3Q2FQ25ckQ3DQ25Q3AQ3C1ggQ3AQ25UOOQ20Q25OUQ25UpQ25glDQ5DDgQ5DQ25UpQ3ADk1Q5DkqJKQ3AeB&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>From report-after-report-after-report-after-report, from Harvard officials, from students, from the press and elsewhere, this is one of the main reasons why we are seeing the results in the survey that you are trying to simultaneously dismiss and accept.</p>

<p>You are trying to claim I am “bashing” Harvard, and others here are mentioning such really weird things as “Harvard Sucks” T-shirts, and such and such. C’mon. I didn’t even know such things existed. Certainly what I am doing is far from wearing a “Harvard Sucks” shirt. I think my position has facts behind it. Were Princeton’s and Yale’s professors behaving like Harvard’s and to the same extent, I would certainly not think highly of these schools. But from all I have seen, they are not only teaching undergrads, many of them are eager to do it.</p>

<p>It is not “bashing” to point this out in a discussion comparing two schools. Demanding we only talk about the positives of a school is a flawed demand when what you really want to know are the worst things you are likely to encounter should you attend that school. What you folks are demanding is like going to buy a used car and asking your mechanic to tell you only positive things about it or some other car. It is just crazy when the cost of buying the car may be your life. In this case the cost may be a loss of big bucks, or worse, the chance for the best education possible.</p>

<p>Bashing is not going on here. I would be “bashing” Harvard were I to have said something like this:</p>

<p>“Harvard is elitist! It just has a bunch of rich kids who are dumb!”</p>

<p>That is bashing because it harshly attacks the school and offers no support at all for it. I am underscoring what Harvard students are saying about their own school, and not just one Harvard student, plenty of them, too many of them. The point of this is to try and sense the probability of my own kids finding themselves in the same boat as these students. For a school that claims to be the “best”, that probability seems just too high. This has led me to believe Harvard is in fact not the “best” school-- at least not when it comes to serving undergraduates. And that is really what counts as far as I am concerned.</p>

<p>My interest is not to elevate Princeton by tearing down Harvard. I am interested in offering another point-of-view as we deal with this issue. My view is valid, I think FAR more valid than throwing up awards by professors who don't even want to BE professors to their undergrads.</p>

<p>I am not merely claiming “Harvard Sucks”. I don’t need to do this because plenty enough Harvard students and graduates are doing it themselves.</p>

260

<p>LOL. Again, Harvard professors have no interest in teaching undergrads, while Yale and Princeton professors aboslutely ADORE their students. Yeah, Harvard professors ignore their students so much that they would hold a faculty-student dinner at Annenberg yesterday (the freshman dining hall). They also dislike students coming to office hours which is why they tell all their students "to come to office hours this week" - when really, they're thinking "get the hell away from me". Yeah, just keep on believing it, keep on thinking that Princeton or Yale professors are more student-friendly, maybe some day, 75% of cross-admits between HY or HP won't choose Harvard. Because those students obviously aren't bright enough to see what you see.</p>