<p><a href="sigh">b</a>**
[quote]
Yeah, Harvard professors ignore their students so much that they would hold a faculty-student dinner at Annenberg yesterday (the freshman dining hall)
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Take away the food and THEN lets see what happens. </p>
<p>I'm kidding!</p>
<p>"At Princeton, there was a lot of Harvard and Yale bashing. At Yale, there was a lot of Harvard bashing. At Harvard? Princeton was never even mentioned and Yale only in passing because of the annual Harvard-Yale game."
That could also be perceived as arrogance.</p>
<p>So you guys are trying to say Princeton is Harvard and Yale's little *****?</p>
<p>That's not really the case. I think it's funny because Princeton and Harvard are the two top colleges in the World.</p>
<p>Either can arguably be the best for undergrad</p>
<p>Harvard hands down has the best in grad. There isn't a single day Harvard isn't mentioned in some research report on TV</p>
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<blockquote> <p>"At Princeton, there was a lot of Harvard and Yale bashing. At Yale, there was a lot of Harvard bashing. At Harvard? Princeton was never even mentioned and Yale only in passing because of the annual Harvard-Yale game." That could also be perceived as arrogance.<<</p> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>I suppose it could be if done arrogantly, but that was not what I observed. I took the guided tour at all three schools and observed a similar phenomenon: the Princeton guide bashed Yale a lot; the Yale guide made a lot of snide remarks about Harvard; and the Harvard guide never mentioned any other school at all - for good or ill. She just seemed very focused on telling us all about Harvard for its own sake instead of running down other colleges.</p>
<p>I really didn't detect any arrogance at all, and I had my snottiness detector antennae set on high gain, because I was wary of H's reputation for haughtiness. But I came away impressed. I can't speak about all the Harvard guides, but the guide and the admissions staff I encountered were very kind, efficient, and eager to help.</p>
<p>"the Princeton guide bashed Yale a lot"</p>
<p>i really hate to jump back into this thread after sitting out the last ten or so pages, but i have to say: the only "bashing" on the princeton tour comes in the form of a staple story, that of the "chapel yale bulldog." it's one of just several building-specific stories known to be false, but told tongue-in-cheek anyway, because they add color and because tourists seem to enjoy them.</p>
<p>also, remember, yale's got its "harvard sucks, and princeton doesn't matter" saying. which, of course, by expressly denying princeton matters, tacitly acknowledges that it does to elis.</p>
<p>The Chapel Yale Bulldog</p>
<pre><code>Legend has it that the Chief Architect of the University Chapel, Mr. Ralph Adams Cram, and the Princeton's President Hibben had an argument concerning the overall look of the structure.
The story goes that Cram found a moderate-sized structure with a rather plain look to be most appropriate, but Hibben went on to raise enough funds to demand a more majestic structure that Cram would have to design and then oversee the construction of. In retaliation for the burden, Cram, a Yale graduate, secretly sculpted the Yale bulldog on one of the Chapel's drainpipes.
First and foremost, Ralph Cram did not go to college. He was a partner in the then-famous Cram and Ferguson firm of Boston, and was the University's supervising architect between 1907 and 1929. Many of the University's gothic structures were created during this time, and Cram was therefore a busy man.
There would be no reason for Cram to spitefully place the Yale bulldog on the University Chapel, so what reason could there be for its rather inexplicable presence? The carving, a British bulldog, might coincide with the Bright Pulpit, which is just around the corner. The Pulpit is dedicated to "the great British commoner," John Bright.
Or perhaps Cram was secretly a brilliant man with a sharp sense of humor, and saw the prime opportunity to give Yale its place in the gutter.
</code></pre>
<p>When I was at Princeton I never once thought about Yale or Harvard. Who the hell had time? And I never hear my D mention Yale or Harvard. She doesn't have time. My guess is that cosar's kid and coureur's kids don't talk about Yale or Princeton. Once kids find their place at a university - THE RIGHT UNIVERSITY FOR THEM - which might be any of these places we are discussing - they don't look back.</p>
<p>Hmm. Lesson there somewhere.</p>
<br>
<blockquote> <p>The Chapel Yale Bulldog<<</p> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>It's a cute story and one worthy of a tour, but it's not the bashing I was referring to. On our tour, the Princeton guide made perhaps three unfavorable remarks about Yale (and said nothing about Harvard that I recall), and all of them seemed unscripted and not part of any standard tour story. That trip was my first visit to Princeton and Yale, and from my view on the west coast I had always regarded Harvard and Yale as long time natural rivals with Princeton not really having a dog in that fight. But I came away thinking: Wow, Princeton really regards itself rather than Harvard as Yale's big rival. </p>
<p>And Alummother - I'm not talking about the every day thoughts of the kids, but what is presented on the tours as the school's face to the public.</p>
<p>When my son and I went on the Princeton tour, the "pretentious factor" felt really high to us. They made it a point have the info session in some designed-to-impress setting, to take us to every fancy building, to say how Princeton throws money at you for anything, even a pleasure trip, etc. etc. Also, I hear the interview process is also very off-putting, done with groups of students in an intimidating way.</p>
<p>The difference at Harvard was striking. Low key, helpful tour-guides, no pretention, a desire to inform rather than "wow" you. And like coreur, we were on the look out for any signs of arrogance, and truly could find none. In fact, if anything, the kids we met were pretty self-depricating. A completely different experience.</p>
<p>isn't EVERY campus tour "designed to impress," though, donemom? i mean, none ever takes you to or past the un-"fancy" buildings, or bemoans how hard funding is to come by for students. it's an hour-long infomercial, everywhere you go. as for the interview process, the group format is probably the necessary result of limited numbers of staffers. surely admissions couldn't interview every interested prospective on campus, individually, with little or no prior notice. they can only do so later, for applicants, with the help of literally thousands of alumni volunteers. of course, your experiences with the two tours are what they are. i don't mean to deny their validity, only to contextualize them with some thoughts.</p>
<p>We did the tours at HY and P. At each of them the student in charge did his or her best to point out what's terrific about that school and to give a pretty hard sell. At H, in fact the guide deliberately addressed the rumors about lack of professor contact and arrogant students. I don't hold it against them. They are on their home turf and it's their turn to speak up. Kids don't go to these schools by being shrinking violets, and I don't think we're raising them to be cloistered nuns. If they want to speak out for their school, more power to them.</p>
<p>On these boards, my own approach may be old-fashioned. If someone comes here and asks, "Princeton or Harvard," I consider this board Princeton home turf and it's my job to tell him or her what's good about Princeton. I wouldn't think of going to the Harvard board and talking up Princeton. Nuff said.</p>
<p>The positive puffery is fine. What is irritating are the posters here who think the best way to puff Princeton is to bash Harvard.</p>
<p>Heh, yeah. I totally agree. That'd be like a person going to a thread about Princeton's Pulitzer wins and bragging Harvard has more.</p>
<p>I've had both family and friends attend Harvard which gave me a chance to see the campus many times throughout the year. Everytime I visit it's such a magical experience, it really is. I envy those that get the oppurtunity to live and grow in that institution and I would implore you to really consider Harvard - it truly is a wonderful place.</p>
<p>That being said, I'm sure Princeton is equally impressive. Unfortunately I've not had a chance to get to know that campus as well as I would like, but for what I've seen in my cursory visits there is that it is very much a surburban experience. It's very quiet and tepid.</p>
<p>To me, there is electricity in the air at Harvard. Princeton can be very comforting and gentle, but I really get the feeling that something extraordinarily special is going on when I'm at Harvard. Everywhere you look some of the world's most brilliant minds are coming together from around the world to debate and discover. It's a very empowering atmosphere and you get the feeling that when the world thinks of higher education, they're looking up at Harvard.</p>
<p>No disrespect to Princeton here, but I did see quite a few "preppy" types - moreso than I would've hoped. There is definitely an air of country club.</p>
<p>I'll admit my I'm a bit biased towards Harvard, but how could I not be. I've seen how magical that University really is and I want those who've been accepted to understand what they can be a part of. If I could do it all over again I'd know my dream school.</p>
<p>PS - Let me add that there is a lot of talk that Harvard doesn't care about its undergrads. That's just simply not true. Of all the people I know who've been there, they've had nothing but praise for the academics. This is a life altering university. You will sit with the best and brightest. The only evidence I can see for the myth is that Harvard is so involved with research for the international community (which is primarily graduate work) that when push comes to shove, yes they probably would address the graduates first - but that's not to say the undergrads are ignored or receive a compromised education. In fact, quite the opposite, Harvard ugrads can revel in the knowledge that in the buildings all around them, the mysteries and problems of the worlds are being unraveled by the people they are in intimite contact. It's really an exciting idea.</p>
<p>When all these people say Princeton is superior for undergrad it makes me wonder if its because that's really the goal of the school or maybe they just don't have what it takes to compete with Harvard's research?</p>
<p>Princetonians please don't take offense. You don't tie for #1 school in the nation for being an average school. Quite the opposite. I'm just throwing in my two cents.</p>
<p>There is a certain "flavor" to Princeton that makes it very different from Harvard, but that doesn't make it less intellectually stimulating. Part of the beauty of Princeton is that it is an assembly of amazing minds and active people in a gorgeous environment. If you feel that being among magnolias and azaleas and students in summer shirts and dresses will turn your brain to mush, then you don't belong there. The students who do attend find it to be a life-altering experience where they are in close proximity to many of the world's top researchers and working directly with them, and where they also enjoy unforgettable old-fashioned outdoor concerts and parties. For my d, it's the best of all possible worlds.</p>
<p><< On our tour, the Princeton guide made perhaps three unfavorable remarks about Yale...and all of them seemed unscripted and not part of any standard tour story... I came away thinking: Wow, Princeton really regards itself rather than Harvard as Yale's big rival. >></p>
<p>You make a claim as to the attitude of the school as a whole based on a couple comments from a tour guide? </p>
<p>Talk about generalizing from too small a sample...</p>
<p>people do it all the time. after all, tour guides/adcoms are the face of a college. they really should know better than make disparaging remarks about other schools.</p>
<p>We didn't have negative experiences on any of our visits to Princeton, or to any school except Columbia. However, one thing that Harvard does right is to pay their guides. I read somewhere that the admission office does this in order to exercise control over them. At Princeton becoming a guide is an honor but I don't think there is the same degree of control. One thing people have said on cc when I posted about our crummy Columbia guide was that judging a school by its guides is stupid. Most of us do that to some extent, but I agree that it's a foolish way to judge.</p>
<p>tetris, you wondered aloud, earlier, "When all these people say Princeton is superior for undergrad it makes me wonder if its because that's really the goal of the school or maybe they just don't have what it takes to compete with Harvard's research?"</p>
<p>well, it is definitely the first. if you have time, read the first chapter of yale-educated historian james axtell's new book, "the making of princeton university: from woodrow wilson to the present," available for free online. in it, he discusses woodrow wilson's vision for princeton as president in the early twentieth century, and speculates as to how he might regard it today:</p>
<p>That dream was nothing less than to make Princeton the best and most distinguished institution of its kind in the world. This goal did not entail large size or trying to be all things to all men. We can afford to be one of the lesser universities in number, he said, if we are one of the foremost in power and quality, by which he meant only intellectual distinction and intellectual primacy. He was, he confessed, covetous of everything that would bring academic distinction to Princeton because he believed that a universitys only object is intellect. He wanted every department to be at the very front, not only in scholarship, but in influence and leadership. To accomplish that, he sought faculty whom advanced students cannot afford not to study under, men who will themselves be the only kind of advertising that a University should condescend to. But he wanted Princetons search for intellectual preeminence never to be a timid imitation of any other institutions. He wisely wanted its general purpose and defining pattern of characteristics to be distinct to ourselves, the university noticeable because of her individuality, because she stands for something different.</p>
<p>in short, it is "really the goal of the school" and not at all that "they just don't have what it takes to compete with harvard's research." as i noted in another thread recently, princeton actually competes fairly well with harvard in the graduate areas it offers. according to the last national research council (NRC) report, in fact, it actually offered MORE of the council's rated graduate programs than did harvard. and in the quality of its programs, it trailed harvard by only one spot - number four to harvard's three. what princeton does not have, of course, is the high-profile professional programs - business, law, and med - the last of whose "source" gets mentioned by name on just about every newscast. </p>
<p>princeton could definitely have top-notch professional programs itself - certainly at least business and law - if it really wanted to. it has, after all, the highest endowment per student of any university in the country (excepting graduate-only rockefeller u.). some pertinent quotes on this topic from current princeton president shirley tilghman in a recent chinese newspaper interview:</p>
<p>Yong Tang: People like to use four words to describe world class universities: Profound in terms of research, old in terms of history, big in terms of student and faculty size, comprehensive in terms of subjects. Princeton, frankly speaking, is neither big nor comprehensive. It is a mini university. But Princeton enjoys an extremely high academic reputation. Your graduates are well respected all over the world. How do you achieve this? </p>
<p>Tilghman: I think our small size and our focus, which is the opposite of comprehensive, are our great strengths. </p>
<p>Yong Tang: Small is beautiful? </p>
<p>Tilghman: Yes, small is beautiful. Because we do not try to do everything, we do not try to do medicine, law or business or veterinary medicine. We focus all of our attention and all of our resources on just two things: one is undergraduate education, the other is very scholarly graduate education. Because we can really focus on those two things, we do both of them extremely well.</p>
<hr>
<p>Yong Tang: Princeton has no school of business, no school of law and no school of medicine. They are the most popular schools today and also very profit making. Why don't you have them? </p>
<p>Tilghman: We don't have those schools because I think those schools would distract us from what we see as our primary mission, which is undergraduate and Ph.D. education. </p>
<p>Yong Tang: Does Princeton have any financial problems without those three professional schools? </p>
<p>Tilghman: I think there is always pressure on the finances of the University. We are always trying to do the very most we can with the resources we have. But I would say we are in a much better financial position than most universities in this country. </p>
<p>Yong Tang: So you don't need extra money. </p>
<p>Tilghman: Oh, yes we do, because our University has to continue to expand. Neuroscience is just one example of something that we were not doing five years ago. We are trying to do it extremely well. That takes a lot of resources. </p>
<p>Yong Tang: In the near future do you have any plans to set up the three professional schools? </p>
<p>Tilghman: Not in the near future. </p>
<p>Yong Tang: Maybe someday? </p>
<p>Tilghman: Maybe someday. You can never say never, or tie the hands of your successors. But certainly during my term I have no plan for that. </p>
<p>Yong Tang: I guess if Princeton has these three professional schools, they would be ranked one of the best in America also. </p>
<p>Tilghman: There is a funny story. If you do a survey in the United States of what is the best law school, we always come in the top five. </p>
<p>Yong Tang: Really? But you don't have a law school. </p>
<p>Tilghman: Exactly! We don't even need to have one, we are considered one of the best. (Laugh). I think people just assume that if we have one, it must be very good. </p>
<p>I agree that the tour is the opportunity to put the school's best foot forward. But everyone would have a different opinion as to how best to do that. It's the same way with college applications. It's one thing to want to properly showcase your attributes while still being low key and humble; it's another to obnoxiously toot your own horn. It's also a matter of priorities as to what you want to stress: at Princeton, I found that the choices they made in that regard, lowered rather than raised my liking for the place. And yes, if a student is comfortable among "polos and dresses", eating clubs and gothic buildings in an admittedly gorgeous suburban environment, then Princeton would likely be a good choice.</p>
<p>Re "suburban," as a reluctant suburbanite myself I find the Princeton campus quite different. It is surrounded by corporate headquarters, it is right next door to Trenton, the state capital, where many students are involved in social and political service, it is a town with a very old African-American community (Paul Robeson's house still stands), and it is loaded with topnotch students and faculty from all over the world. I have a neighbor who still wishes she lived in Princeton again, where she found life exciting and international. </p>
<p>Re the tour, I'm not sure how many you took, but they vary from one to the next. We have taken quite a few and have been impressed by students who were even willing to talk about their own misgivings about going to Princeton (re the eating clubs) and how they had found them once they were on campus. As several have said, judging a school by the tour guides is natural but not necessarily helpful or advisable. My d found it very helpful to connect with students who shared her extracurricular and academic interests. Having been initially adamant that she needed to be on an urban campus, she quickly realized that at Princeton she would be immersed in a highly stimulating environment while enjoyed the safety and beauty of the collegiat Gothic.</p>