<p>Pastariffic - this is as right as any kind of general statement like this can be. Harvard is less light-hearted of an environment. The people I know who graduated from there characterize it as "swimming with the sharks". Now, of course, some people like that kind of thing...</p>
<p>Alumother...... could this forum be experiencing visits from the infamous "LAND SHARK"</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landshark%5B/url%5D">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landshark</a></p>
<p>It seems like the same reruns every Spring.</p>
<p>OK OK. Here is the story again. Because my father would have been distressed, and because she liked Cambridge and the campus, D put Harvard on her list. Her GC said he had a "good feeling" about Harvard, so she applied EA. She didn't want to apply ED anywhere at that point. She thought the kids at Harvard were too much like adults, so she wasn't really excited about it. As she said to me again recently, "Mom, I wouldn't have gone to Harvard."</p>
<p>Believe it or not. True story. The negative cliches that I "throw around", they are verbatim quotes from my sister and brother and their friends. Look, I acknowledge the role of the eating clubs at Princeton. Byerly, why don't you just acknowledge that Harvard on average is more eat-your-dead than Princeton?</p>
<p>And now, with that, as we have previously agreed:</p>
<p>LEAVE MY DAUGHTER OUT OF THIS. OR I WILL REPORT YOU AGAIN.</p>
<p>Yeah ... as one example, I didn't even apply to Harvard because the reports I heard from current students corresponded directly with its "swimming with the sharks" reputation. I found it would be an unhealthy and unpleasant atmosphere for me. Princeton I found inspiring intellectually and pleasant socially. </p>
<p>And it's not sour grapes. I applied EA to Yale, was rejected, and still think it's a fantastic school. I might well have gone there if I'd gotten in. True story. Harvard, on the other hand, wasn't worth the application, in my mind. It's not for everyone. Alumother is right - some stereotypes are based in truth. It's time to admit that Harvard is a different, and possibly more harsh, environment.</p>
<p>Alumother,</p>
<p>I, too, wish Byerly would stop raising the subject of your daughter - I view his comments in that area as inappropriate. Having said that, I have noticed that you have a tendency to mouth off about Harvard and that, just about every time you do so, my view is that you haven't a clue what you're talking about. </p>
<p>I know a couple of recent Princeton grads, including a family member, who absolutely hated Princeton and can go on at length with horror stories about the school that would make your hair curl. I refrain from repeating those stories here because I view them as unrepresentative based on the general reputation of the school. I also have no desire to Princeton-bash. But when you or other Princeton supporters repeat stray anecdotes from family members or, in pastariffic's case, his "father's friend" to badmouth Harvard, it's tempting to respond in kind.</p>
<p>Then I remember how turned off my son was by the Harvard-bashing he encountered last year, and I figure you're only reflecting poorly on Princeton when you do so. If you limited yourself to singing Princeton's praises, I think you'd be better off.</p>
<p>OK. Since this has turned into a personal battle-of-sorts between adults it's no longer useful to the kids. I answered you, but thought better of it and edited it out.</p>
<p>I commend you for your restraint.</p>
<p>More generally, I think these "which is better" threads always seem to end up in the same place and are never particularly useful to the kids. ;)</p>
<p>Usually. That Princeton Vs. Brown one is super-excellent though</p>
<p>Harvard-bashing by people who sang a different tune before the admissions letters came out seems ever so slightly hypocritical, even though it is understandable.</p>
<p>Since we're all talking of restraint, let's also practice it with regards to ad hominem attacks, shall we?</p>
<p>... and even ad collegium attacks :)</p>
<p><em>sigh</em> I apologize for contributing to the "ad collegium" attacks. I merely sought to point out that Harvard is most beneficial to those of an exceptionally motivated and self-driven nature who can handle that kind of pressure, as I have noted from the personal experience of those who HAVE been successful there. Different schools are good for different people. There's no point in suggesting otherwise.</p>
<p>It is my understanding that OPs intent is to gather as many opinions about H and P as possible, so that he can choose one wisely come May 1. Id be happy offer him my two pesos.</p>
<p>Some posters here have said its a matter of ones best fit or its academic focus, or social life, etc. etc. IMO, those who got lucky and have that wonderful choice should choose H over P. My opinion is based on the following:</p>
<p>1) H has an academically stronger student body that P. Compare admits academic achievement data, you will see more high achieving students are concentrated in H. Remember, first of all, those who have that wonderful choice are more likely academically oriented students, or academic 1s. They are seldom athletics, special admits, legacies. These students take their academics quite seriously, and they tend to welcome academic challenge and explore.</p>
<p>2) P has a very unnatural social structure, so called eating clubs: These clubs tent to create problems and is a one of major turn-offs for those academic students. There are some who advocate their existence, saying club scenes boost social experiences, etc. etc. The fact of matter is that there are 25-30% upperclassman (about 600, not majority, but significant body) who hated the club scene, never joined, went independently. If you plan to attend the April hosting, by all means, go and talk to many students there, including juniors/seniors who are independents, also talk to some sing-in club members, especially in quad or terrace, they would say the same thing. Many members in sign-in clubs joined these clubs just to avoid being labeled as social reject or social outcast on their foreheads. But they know they are also being ridiculed by privileged bicker-club members, most likely by IVY club members. Ask yourself, do you really want to spend the next 4 years in a place where dumb jocks, rich dumb legacies have a special privileges than you (just because they are born-rich), flaunting their dads money, having a seated, five-course meal every night, sipping afternoon teas, and making casual jokes about the under-privileged? Of course there are many students who dismissed this scene, and concentrated their academics, graduated and went successful. My point is that these eating clubs do more harm than good and therefore, is a big Negative for P. </p>
<ol>
<li><p>Location is another factor to consider. Go visit two schools, and stroll on Nassau street and Harvard Square, you will feel the difference. Cambridge/Boston will provide more variety social outlet than Princeton. Yeah sure NYC/Philly is only an hour train ride away from PJC, but dont expect a hoard of student hopping train on any given night. The social life in Princeton is very limited in campus, and many social activities centers on the eating clubs. Lets say you are itching for a medium caffe latte at 2 am during your work, you can find a coffee store open at that impossible hour at Harvard Square. In P, your alternative is walking down to WA and drink that 10-hour-old coffee. </p></li>
<li><p>When you look at the data for the cross-admits (just like one of you whos on the fence and reading my post), more than 70% choose H over P year after year. That says a lot. We all can learn from the history</p></li>
</ol>
<p>This is not intended for those who are ED-admits or having no better alternative (HYSM).</p>
<p>
[quote]
4. When you look at the data for the cross-admits (just like one of you whos on the fence and reading my post), more than 70% choose H over P year after year. That says a lot. We all can learn from the history</p>
<p>This is not intended for those who are ED-admits...
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Well, that's a fairly big exception, considering 49% of Princeton's class comes ED. The 599 people most passionate about Princeton - those that apply ED and get in - are the ones that are never included in the common admit surveys since they're set in place at Princeton. To argue that the best and the brightest consistently like H over P is oversimplification; many never even bother with Harvard, and these are the people you'll never see in surveys.</p>
<p>If you could create a survey that read the minds of ED candidates too, I think you'd find far more balanced results. Any differences in cross-admit data would not be so significant as to overshadow the quality of undergraduate education you might recieve there.</p>
<p>like most havard partisans here, wetdreamer has little real understanding of princeton's social system. as a result of this, and his bias, he grossly mischaracterizes it. look, if it were really that horrible, princeton would not have the highest freshman retention rate, second highest graduation rate, and highest alumni giving rate - by far - of any university in the country. it does, however.</p>
<p>"But they know they are also being ridiculed by privileged bicker-club members, most likely by IVY club members. Ask yourself, do you really want to spend the next 4 years in a place where dumb jocks, rich dumb legacies have a special privileges than you (just because they are born-rich), flaunting their dads money, having a seated, five-course meal every night, sipping afternoon teas, and making casual jokes about the under-privileged? Of course there are many students who dismissed this scene, and concentrated their academics, graduated and went successful." </p>
<p>You are spreading stereotypes. You are thinking in binary terms. And your imagination is working overtime. It is not true that students at Princeton are either social or academic leaders or extracurricular leaders or caring individuals. As noted on these boards, Princeton's latest Rhodes Scholar is a member of Ivy, and several of the sign-in clubs are the first choice of players on particular varsity teams. I could go on but my point is the stereotypes in your post are long outdated.</p>
<p>There is no single answer to the OP's question. Some students should choose H. Others should choose P. The biggest difference is an urban environment vs. an intense, campus-centered life. There is certainly no shortage of "academic 1s" at Princeton.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Ask yourself, do you really want to spend the next 4 years in a place where dumb jocks, rich dumb legacies have a special privileges than you (just because they are born-rich), flaunting their dads money, having a seated, five-course meal every night, sipping afternoon teas, and making casual jokes about the under-privileged?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This is so overstated. The vast majority of wealthy kids don't behave this way anyway. Princeton is not exclusive in having these type of kids. All the elite schools do. The legacy admit percentage has seen declining #s every year.
The ones who do get in are certainly qualified and the same can be said about the athletes.</p>
<p>It sounds like our all "Whet" friend seems to have a class envy thing going on.</p>
<p>As far as taking a seat during dinner I have heard that it aids digestion although there is something to be said for the occasional Nathan's hot-dog eaten while standing:)</p>
<p>not even as much stereotypes as outright lies, aparent. for starters, i have never, ever heard of a five-course meal or an afternoon tea being served at an eating club, even at the ones most often labeled "elitist." and those clubs are no more populated by "dumb jocks" and "rich, dumb legacies" (to the extent they even are) than the (still all-male) final clubs on harvard's "gold coast." harvard, after all, is the one with the "z list," characterized by one crimson columnist as a "de facto special admissions program" for legacies and an "elitist money funnel." </p>
<p>also, it is completely baseless to claim that all of the princeton upperclassmen who decline to join a club do so because they "hate" the system. they do so for many reasons, including that they prefer to cook their own food in a co-op or apartment setting, or they don't find the benefits of membership to be worth the costs. significantly, the vast majority still party at the clubs, which they can do regardless of membership; the clubs provide a central, reliable social scene for all students every weekend.</p>
<p>as harvard and yale students see it, princeton's eating clubs are actually less elitist than their own special institutions:</p>
<p>"The eating clubs are most akin to a combination of final clubs and the housing system at Harvard.... Though the club system may seem highly elitist and pretentious, in actuality, with nearly every upperclassmen enjoying the benefits of a club, it manages to combine the benefits of a final club with a sense of community of Harvard's Houses."</p>
<p>-and-</p>
<p>"Despite lingering elitist reputations, Princeton's eating clubs prove more egalitarian than other controversial institutions. Virtually democratic open doors and flowing taps inspire Princeton students to head to The Street most weekend nights."</p>
<p>"In comparison to Harvard's final clubs or Yale's secret societies, Princeton's eating clubs are in many ways less exclusive."</p>
<p>[first paragraph deleted - Mod JEM]</p>
<p>I was a student who had little trouble turning down an offer of admission to Harvard. Princeton was an easy choice for me. When it came time for law school, the obvious choice was Harvard and I spent three years on that campus. With a foot in both worlds and having spent a significant amount of time at each place, I feel comfortable stating an informed opinion. </p>
<p>First, to state that H has an academically stronger student body that [sic] P, is silly. According to the most recent numbers collected by U.S. News for the students enrolling in the fall of 2004, the average SAT scores of the middle 50% at Princeton were between 1370 and 1560 (a midpoint of 1465). At Harvard, the middle 50% ranged from 1400 to 1580 (a midpoint of 1490). A 25 point difference on the midpoints of the two schools is far from significant and certainly a ridiculous basis for your claim. There is a large range of SAT scores at both schools and a huge overlap in those ranges between the two schools. The students with the very highest SAT scores are well-represented at both. Actually, the numbers have increased at Princeton with the Class of 2009 and are expected to climb as Princeton increases entering class sizes with most of the additional admits coming from the highest SAT ranges. For the Class of 2009, the middle 50% of students enrolled was 1400 to 1570 (midpoint 1485). Well have to wait to see what the numbers are for the Class of 2010.</p>
<p>Your unfounded claim that P has a very unnatural social structure, so called eating clubs, has been rehashed endlessly on these threads. It is so ironic that Harvard supporters should try to make the case that Princetons eating clubs (most of which are completely open to anyone who wants to join) create an elitist atmosphere on campus. Any activity that is open to anyone who wants to participate and which involves so large a portion of the student body can hardly be said to be elitist. While it is true that the Final Clubs at Harvard have relatively few members, many students are drawn into the process of those clubs through being punched and then rejected. With ten Final Clubs on campus, each punching an average of 125 students, approximately 1,250 students are willing participants in the Final Club process constituting about 20% of the entire student body. Of this group of 1,250 only about 10% to 15% will actually be allowed into the Final Club world, thus disappointing the remaining 85% to 90%. By contrast, even the most selective of the bicker clubs at Princeton accept about half of the students who want to join. According to the Yale Daily News </p>
<p>[s]tudents gain membership to a final club through the "punch" process, which occurs each year in September and October. In contrast to Princeton's eating clubs, which accept applications, students cannot apply to be punched, but are identified through networks of friends. Each club initially punches 100 to 150 students, usually sophomores, and through a series of events narrows the pool down to 15 or 20. The Harvard Crimson estimated that about 10 percent of male Harvard students are members of final clubs. </p>
<p><a href="http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=32489%5B/url%5D">http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=32489</a>
<a href="http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=504073%5B/url%5D">http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=504073</a>
<a href="http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=32479%5B/url%5D">http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=32479</a></p>
<p>Whets statement that you are considered a social reject if not admitted to one of the bicker clubs is another ludicrous claim made by those wishing to bash Princeton and has no basis in fact. While it certainly may be the case that some individuals might feel this way (just as some of the 85% rejected from the Final Clubs might feel this way) there is no social stigma recognized by the student body as a whole. To say so is laughable.</p>
<p>Ah, location. Personally, that is one of the reasons I chose Princeton over Harvard. The Princeton campus is incredibly beautiful and the town is very safe. I think most would agree that while Cambridge and Boston have their charms, they are also significantly more dangerous. Yes, it is true that the town of Princeton has fewer bars and late night hangouts than does Cambridge. Still, I would encourage students to visit and judge for themselves. I found the town to be very lively with a great many restaurants (and yes, even bars). There are many community activities and celebrations in Princeton that involve the entire town and university community. The proximity to New York and Philadelphia is also a plus. Whet trivializes it, but the train ride to either city is easy and pleasant. You might not go into either city as frequently as you might go into Boston, but when you do, the resources are infinitely greater. New York and Philadelphia are business and cultural hotspots that Boston will never be. Boston is charming and has a fascinating history but cannot measure up to the combined resources of two of the greatest cities in the U.S. Finally, I found the weather far more appealing in Princeton. The winters are long and cold in Cambridge, much longer and colder than they are farther south in Princeton.</p>
<p>Finally, the claim about cross admits is always thrown around by Harvard supporters with smug pride. Yes, it is true that Harvard takes more cross-admits from Princeton (and all other schools) than Princeton does from Harvard. I dont know that this means much (it didnt in my case) and it doesnt tell you which students are most likely to turn down one school for the other. Based on the SAT averages for the two schools I dont think one can make the case that the academically strongest students turn down Princeton for Harvard. Were that true, Harvards averages would be much higher and Princetons much lower. I suspect that the brand name helps attract a certain segment of the cross-admits.</p>
<p>Harvard is a fine school. Princeton is a fine school.<br>
[last paragraph deleted - Mod JEM]</p>
<p>I'd say Princeton because they focus on undergrad....and a much more personal experience with teachers since there are much less students.</p>