Harvard quotas????

Colleges and Universities A-Z Harvard University
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<p>squaregirl,</p>

<p>Thanks for the explanation of what Asians are. I know what they are, and I am one of them. I just don’t like 23hevfalub23’s self-inflated attitude, and pardon my Pekinglish for not using the correct words to say it.</p>

<p>Now go back to my promise to you. Several years ago, I started to split my time from my 24/7 job to teach math at a high school in south Jersey. The school was ranked 200 out of 330 in New Jersey, and the average SAT scores was 830/1600. The school was 25% black, 70% white and rest was mixed. In the school history there was nobody went to Harvard or Stanford, or won the National Merit Scholarship (NMS). I was new to teach, and started with classes with great uncertainty. They did not have honors, level 1 or level 2 classes, so everyone took the same thing. You can imagine how hard to teach. One kid in there, Joe, a white kid, was so unnoticed at the beginning, and I could not even tell him from the others till the Principal told me that Joe was the number one kid in his class. He could not even factor at Algebra II level. This was due to the poor teachings he had received so far in his life. He was talented and learned in the next two years with me. On the second year, I fought with the school to take him with me in Calc. We had discussions almost on the daily basis regarding how to prepare and apply colleges. He took almost every advice I gave him: took SAT at the end of sophomore year (2280), PSAT reached 228- NMS finalist, and eventually had SAT of 2330. A girl sat behind Joe got SAT score 1000 points less. At the time I was about leaving that school, he was about to apply Columbia. I finally realized where he should go: Harvard. I gave him all my reasons to convince him to do so, and the last thing I did was to make a bet with him: if he gets into Harvard, I will be back for his graduation next year. By December that year, I lost my bet, and I was so happy for him.</p>

<p>Harvard did look for person like Joe for some very good reasons. Joe could go back and develop south Jersey where there are not many Harvard graduates. He is definitely not the best I have seen, but for economic and other reasons, HYPS will get them, not only those URM. It could for the same reasons.</p>

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<p>Caramel, I am not denying the fact race can create some diversity. All I am saying is that race doesnt necessarily equate to more diversity from other non-URM applicants. In my case, race made me diverse because it exposed me to extreme situations. I dont think most URMs go through extreme life experiences and circumstances which make them compellingly more diverse than other applicants.</p>

<p>What creates diversity in an individual? I believe different experiences/life styles results in a diverse student. Thats why I brought up the idea of life experiences. At its current state, college admissions uses race as an overinflated diversity factor. My main point is that Life Experiences (which we all agree is not race-limited) creates the diversity of an individual, NOT his/her race. Sometimes, race can aid in exposing one to a compellingly different life than that of other applicants, but college admissions treats that as the case for all URMs</p>

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Second, if these students don't believe that race has any measurable effect on their life experience, what are they doing in a black affinity group? What purpose does the group serve if your community is as colorblind and PC as you say?

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<p>Because they want to make their race and what they consider to be their culture a factor in their lives. They also fight discrimination and ignorance in nation-wide efforts. They bring awareness to black leaders in our community that people may not know about. They inform others about my area's history regarding slavery and those who brought an end to it.</p>

<p>That's what I've been saying this whole time. Their race is important to them. They choose to make it a part of their identity to a greater degree than others. This is true of any cultural group.</p>

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Unless you all live in a magical bubble that filters out any influence from non-colorblind and non-PC sources, your experience and view of the world has in some fashion been shaped by your race.

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<p>Interesting caveat. It definitely applies. I'm not kidding. People here live in a bubble. Most people's extended families live in the city, and there aren't that many people who leave. Really.</p>

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What is the objective standard of "bad?" Can it be measured only in terms of SAT score or GPA? If so, AGAIN, please tell me the good vs. bad cut off.

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<p>There is no cutoff. But it's clear to see what is good and what is bad. A 900/2400 is "bad," yes? A .5 GPA is bad, yes? A 1500 when most people in the same demographic score 2200+ is bad, yes? Cutoffs aren't necessary to have general ideas of "good" and "bad." Those general ideas depend entirely on the demographic in question.</p>

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On the other hand, if numbers aren't everything, and we're looking at applicants to get a full picture of them as individuals and in terms of what they contribute to the class, then admissions committees should be able to take into account every piece of information they can get about an applicant.

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<p>Sure. But not all of it is relevant. Does a Catholic who wears a cross but doesn't talk about Catholicism at all, doesn't go to Church, doesn't even believe in the faith add diversity? Does a gay student who made that clear in the app but stays in the closet and doesn't do any work with anti-discrimination groups (or any others) and doesn't talk about sexual orientation at all add diversity?</p>

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<p>tokenadult seconded my point, and I second his proposal :)</p>

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<p>A also agree with Token's points</p>

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<p>Really what we need here are definitions of diversity, and also a hard analysis of the cost/benefit of promoting it.</p>

<p>Diversity in what? Skin tone? Culture? Nationality? Thought?</p>

<p>I can guarantee the last three will be completely random (Would you want an admissions committee screening people to make sure a certain political bent was favored? Or that some citizens of a country couldn't attend?) if only merit is considered, and the first one will be present in proportion to the population.</p>

<p>If my system of considering accomplishment while considering effort and adjusting for opportunity is entertained, every applicant would be represented as the sum of their achievements, allowing a school to consider precisely how well they have used resources, and precisely how well they are likely to use them at the school, while also interacting and sharing with the community.</p>

<p>To think that a system is needed to 'help out' minorities is silly, because the requisite assumption is that difficulty and historical societal status are the same.
I would argue that's what created the current trend towards labels of Under Represented and Over Represented, because otherwise there isn't a line between 'minorities' that need help, and those that don't.</p>

<p>Clearly, the line to be drawn is that of opportunity, and not that of race.</p>

<p>Here's an example.</p>

<p>A white student that had held a job for 3 years, grown up in a single parent home, attended a poor public school, but performed at a high level would be given precisely the same 'racial' boost as a white student that went to Buckingham Browne and Nichols with similar performance.</p>

<p>A black student that had held a job for three years, grown up in a single parent home, attended a poor public school, but performed at a high level would be given precisely the same 'racial' boost as a black student that went to Buckingham Browne and Nichols with similar performance.</p>

<p>Now, that situation does represent an extreme of circumstance, but surely you can recognize the problem; While it's much more likely for a black person to be in the former (disadvantaged) circumstance, it's inherently ignorant to conflate their race with the level of opportunity they've had, because the reality of life is that poverty isn't some evil incarnate that seeks out certain skin tones. Poverty (and as a consequence, Wealth), can be experienced by any student.</p>

<p>I've asked this question several times, and the responses have been hurriedly put together it seems:</p>

<p>What impact does the race of student have that can be easily and consistently separated from the impact that the wealth of a student has? (The impact being something that they cannot control affecting that which they can control.)</p>

87

<p>"A friend and I recently spoke with a Harvard admissions officer and we asked if they had any quotas. She very bluntly stated that if Harvard didnt have quotas, 80% of the school would be Asian"</p>

<p>Troll. I have headed a regional committtee of alum interviewers, been on the Alumni Association's admissions committee, spoken directly with Harvard admissions officers and the dean of Harvard's admission, and no one in the office would ever say anything like that. </p>

<p>If anyone doesn't believe me, just e-mail or ask an admissions officer yourself.</p>

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<p>Northstarmom, I couldn't imagine a Harvard admissions officer saying that either, nor do I believe Harvard uses specific quotas. But when evaluating applications, will they not look at percentages in order to evaluate the current "diversity" of the class and make admissions decisions accordingly? The way Harvard defends its policies personally frustrates me as an applicant. For example, look at this FAQ topic on the website concerning legacies: </p>

<p>"Are a student's chances of admission enhanced if a relative has attended Harvard?</p>

<p>The application process is the same for all candidates. Among a group of similarly distinguished applicants, the daughters and sons of College alumni/ae may receive an additional look. " </p>

<p>Harvard</a> College Admissions Office: frequently asked questions</p>

<p>So if legacies receive "another look", wouldn't that mean the admissions process is a lil different for legacies. Statistics show that legacies have a higher chance for acceptance. Ok, maybe it is meant to suggest that the general process for admissions is the same for all applicants (e.g legacies will not have specific adcoms review their application), but I hate the fact Harvard is using the FAQ to mislead observers into thinking legacies do not get any application benefits. After seeing that legacy answer in the FAQ, I view anything Harvard says about quotas, etc. with less credibility. Similarly, applicants on CC will post questions concerning apps even when Harvard answers some of those questions in its FAQ. (For example, does turning in your application by Dec 1 really hurt your chances?) </p>

<p>And what is a troll; I am new on CC and I am just curious (anyone can answer)? Is it someone who gives false information for the purposes of making an argument ?</p>

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<p>
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And what is a troll; . . . . Is it someone who gives false information for the purposes of making an argument?

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<p>That's basically it. The terminology is probably as old as you are. </p>

<p>[Troll</a> (Internet) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet%5DTroll"&gt;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet))&lt;/p>

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<p>The thing about legacies at Harvard is that one suspects they get another look on their way to the dumpster. Or perhaps near the end of the process someone does a check and says, "Ooops, we've got 16% legacies, and we're supposed to cap it at 15%. Let's take another look and get rid of 20 of them."</p>

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<p>goldenratiophi: Is it sad that I'm an ORM and I'm in favor of AA?</p>

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<p>It wont be sad until you get your college admissions decisions :0 (jk, but if I was a well qualified ORM and I did not get into a top notch school, I would definetly be mad, and if you are a well qualified ORM and you happen to not get into your first choice (could be any level of school - ivy, duke, vandy, etc.) your opinions about AA might not change but maybe your feelings will fluctuate.</p>

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<p>Quotas? Doubt it. Yes they strive for diversity, and don't want 80% asians, but they're not going to say "X amount of these people get in and that's it..."</p>

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<p>The other thing I don't understand is what is qualified ORM? My son was the valedictorian of one of the top ten high schools in the nation and among other things, he was rejected by Harvard, so was the second kid. I truly don't believe what is more qualified. This is also put me as pro-Stanford for the rest of my life.</p>

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<p>^No one from our school gets into Stanford unless they are an athlete or legacy or URM - actually two out of three. So I'm anti-Stanford for the rest of my life. :)</p>

<p>Meanwhile Harvard has accepted all sorts of kids from our high school.</p>

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<p>Well, it is fair. I promised myself not to bash Harvard as much as I can, at least in public. Four kids went to Stanford from his school last year. #1, #2 (after both abandoned Yale) , one legacy, one international student. Oaky, #3 went to Harvard.</p>

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<p>Ewho, I wanted to go to Stanford, but my mom wouldnt let me apply (b/c of distance). In fact, I dont think she would care if I got into Harvard (she doesnt understand US college admissions).</p>

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<p>Who else can say their parents wouldn't care about getting into an Ivy!; I am assuming most students get pressure from their parents to compete for such schools</p>

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<p>
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the top ten high schools in the nation

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<p>Who keeps an official list of the top ten high schools in the nation? I know of some wonderful high schools (none in my state, alas), but I don't know of any indisputable top ten list. And some of the best high schools I know don't officially rank their students, so how many top high schools have an identifiable number-one student?</p>

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Who else can say their parents wouldn't care about getting into an Ivy!; I am assuming most students get pressure from their parents to compete for such schools

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<p>I really want it to be my children's decision about where to apply, and about what offer of admission to accept if they have a choice of offers. I hang out on this forum a lot because I know other young people, not my own children, who are curious about Ivy League admission, not having parents who attended colleges outside our state. I didn't go out of state for college either. It's no fun to learn about the admission process at State U--I'm already very familiar with it--but it's interesting to try to understand the process at what just might be the most selective college on the planet. The two young people I've known best over the last six years who I thought might be warranted in applying to Harvard already declined the chance or seem not to be interested. Other young people I know locally are applying this year, and I wish them well. I have no idea if any of my children will ever apply; that's up to them.</p>