<p>Harvard sux LOOOOOOOOOOL!</p>
<p>These rankings aren't going to change anything. People won't suddenly decide Princeton is more prestigious or better for undergrad because of the release of these rankings. Harvard will still be perceived as the "name brand" in education, and a ranking certainly won't change that.</p>
<p>However, it IS fun to poke fun at Harvard prestige whores...:)</p>
<p>"There isn't any doubt that brand matters and that Harvard is the prestige brand," says Stanley Katz, director of Princeton University's Center for Arts and Cultural Policy Studies. "It's the Gucci of higher education, the most selective place..."</p>
<p>"It used to be the case that of students who were admitted to Harvard and Princeton or Harvard and Yale, seven of 10 would choose to go to Harvard," Katz says. "It may be more now. There is a tendency for the academically best to skew even more to Harvard. We just get our socks beat off in those cases."</p>
<p>I'm in complete agreement with f. scottie on the open-market EA issue. </p>
<p>I wholeheartedly support a single-deadline no-early free market. Schools wouldn't be able to pre-select their classes from a tiny and academically inferior early pool, and students wouldn't have to agonize over what school to do early.</p>
<p>It would be the most efficient outcome, and also the easiest to determine the pecking order of schools based on yield rate (because RD yield is an useful statistic).</p>
<p>its because of tiger woods.</p>
<p>So, zepher, does that mean Stanford shouldn't be able to issue "letters of intent" in November, but should make the jocks apply on January 1 like everyone else?</p>
<p>Princeton # 1 !!!!!</p>
<p>Let's admit it. Harvard is a great school. Its graduate school often the best. But when it comes to undergraduate education, many students are very unsatisfied. Sure, it is more popular and well-known, but it better start reforming the system before it is too late.</p>
<p>Byerly posted: </p>
<p>"It used to be the case that of students who were admitted to Harvard and Princeton or Harvard and Yale, seven of 10 would choose to go to Harvard," Katz says. "It may be more now. There is a tendency for the academically best to skew even more to Harvard. We just get our socks beat off in those cases."</p>
<p>Which has nothing at all to do with which school provides the best undergraduate education and best overall undergraduate student experience. Remember, we're talking about a choice made by high school students who know nothing of the reality of day to day life at Harvard. </p>
<p>Harvard has a well-deserved reputation for excellence, but IMO, most of that arises from accomplishments by professors connected with the graduate schools or graduates from one of them. And great, even breathtaking, accomplishments at that level obviously have nothing to do with the quality of the undergraduate program. But they certainly add sizzle to the overall public perception of Harvard.</p>
<p>I would suggest that many new Harvard admittees, knowing nothing of the steak--the reality of the undergrad experience--buy into the sizzle. </p>
<p>But what's life really like for Harvard undergrads? </p>
<p>"Student life at Harvard lags peer schools, poll finds</p>
<p>By Marcella Bombardieri, Globe Staff | March 29, 2005</p>
<p>Student satisfaction at Harvard College ranks near the bottom of a group of 31 elite private colleges, according to an analysis of survey results that finds that Harvard students are disenchanted with the faculty and social life on campus.</p>
<p>An internal Harvard memo, obtained by the Globe, provides numerical data that appear to substantiate some long-held stereotypes of Harvard: that undergraduate students often feel neglected by professors, and that they don't have as much fun as peers on many other campuses."</p>
<p>Byerly gets bent out of shape every time someone cites this article, but an objective person wanting hard facts must be impressed with its unbiased results. The factual basis relied on by the Globe was an internal Harvard memo.</p>
<p>And what's life really like for Princeton undergrads? Well, 61% of graduates annually give money to the school, the highest alumni giving rate in the country. And it's been that way for a long time. Obviously, most Princeton grads are grateful to the school. Clearly, their expectations were met or exceeded.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Let's admit it. Harvard is a great school. Its graduate school often the best. But when it comes to undergraduate education, many students are very unsatisfied. Sure, it is more popular and well-known, but it better start reforming the system before it is too late.
[/quote]
Im sorry, but, "before it is too late?" Before what is too late? I haven't really seen Harvard's yield going down....nor is its enormously high number of applications falling short. I don't see Harvard really ever leaving the top 2 spots...in the near future. I don't think Harvard's prestige has been dented one little bit. </p>
<p>And Byerly...you use that Harvard=Gucci way too often. For our sakes, can you find a new quote? As much as I like that one, and Im sure you love it, I like some variation from time to time. Maybe find lke a Harvard=Louis Vuitton or Harvard=Porsche or Harvard=i dunno super high powered CEO man, but something other than Gucci.</p>
<p>Shrek, did you read Summers' letter of resignation? I think his whole "complacency" point is very well pointed out. Harvard isn't nearly the power it was a couple decades ago. Today it becomes hard to think in just what category Harvard is a leader in the field, and not just another GOOD school in it.</p>
<p>
[QUOTE]
Let's admit it. Harvard is a great school. Its graduate school often the best. But when it comes to undergraduate education, many students are very unsatisfied. Sure, it is more popular and well-known, but it better start reforming the system before it is too late.
[/QUOTE]
</p>
<p>As a undergrad here myself, I think their undergrad education is FANTASTIC. Not only do you choose from a wide variety of classes, but if you're super qualified, you can jump directly into graduate classes. Several of my friends took Cell Biology courses through the HST program the Harvard Medical School! </p>
<p>Harvard's yield has ALWAYS been approximately 80%, which is unparalleled by any other institution. Kids realize that Harvard, while they won't hold your hand ALL the time, offers such unparalleled resources unlike most other colleges.</p>
<p>Go through the threads and read what other undergrads in our CC posse (as we call it) say. I would never trade the experience I had so far with anything else.</p>
<p>Xjayz, you said that the education at Harvard is "FANTASTIC" and then proceed to back your claim by referencing things which are true of almost any university: wide variety of classes, advanced classes for advanced students. Further, I'm hoping that many of you will agree that the opinions of post-grads (as per exit satisfaction surveys or alumni giving) are a more informed measure of a school than the yield numbers... but then maybe not.</p>
<p>I also think that alumni giving rate tells more of how aggressive the fundraising efforts of those schools are than how happy their graduates are with the experience they had....</p>
<p>Alumni giving rate is PURELY a function of marketing. My parents look back very fondly on their college years, and don't give a penny to their schools.</p>
<p>I am, as some of you know, one of the most enthusiastic Princeton supporters. And even I think this list outcome is pretty much wholly irrelevant, albeit fun to parade around briefly. The "betterness" of Harvard to Yale or Yale to Princeton or Princeton to Harvard, and same goes for Stanford and probably some other top schools, is completely subjective. We are lucky in America to have such amazing educational institutions and the best way to figure out which place is "#1" for you is to visit each, if you can, and find out which culture and environment fits you best.</p>
<p>Actually, zephyr, alumni giving is generally a function of convincing satisfied alumni to call their classmates and ask for money. I wouldn't exactly call it marketing. Although I don't necessarily believe that it should be one of the factors used to evaluate a school, a high level of alumni giving would normally indicate that alumni have benefited from their college experience and can be convinced to donate through the efforts of classmates. It requires an annual giving office that is on top of things and the efforts of many alumni in each class (I would agree with felipecocco that the efforts have to be aggressive, as they have to be in any successful fundraising endeavor). However, alumni aren't being tricked, coerced or manipulated into giving and I think that a high level of alumni giving shows that people were happy with their college experience.</p>
<p>And I agree with Alumother that there are many wonderful schools in America and many number 1s out there.</p>
<p>I doubt that 61% of Princeton alumni are satisfied with their experience compared to 44% of Harvardians. That's just not a useful indicator of anything meaningful.</p>
<p>I do believe that the combination of the high alumni giving rate and the extraordinary percentage of alumni who return for their reunions do indicate something about Princeton. First, something about the school attracts a high percentage of people who enjoy social contact and are pre-disposed to strong feelings of belonging. Second, the school then provides an experience that the students and then alumni lasting have fond feelings for. But this is the Harvard board, apologies for the hijack.</p>
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<blockquote> <p>Actually, zephyr, alumni giving is generally a function of convincing satisfied alumni to call their classmates and ask for money.<<</p> </blockquote>
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<p>Whenever I get a donation solicitation from either of my old schools (not Harvard), it's always from a current student, not a fellow alum.</p>
<p>zephyr--I have no knowledge of how many Princeton or Harvard alumni are satisfied with their respective experiences--I suspect it's probably greater than the percentages involved in annual giving, since even satisfied alumni have reasons for not donating back the university. I was merely responding to your statement about marketing, which I disagree with.</p>
<p>Coureur--At Princeton, alumni do the majority of annual giving solicitations</p>