Harvard/Stanford #2

bluedevilmike · March 30, 2007, 2:37pm

goes and looks

USN and CC both give no indication that they're out. I think they're off-cycle.

stoneimmaculate · March 30, 2007, 2:44pm

I was at a magazine rack about a month ago reading what I thought was the latest USNWR with college rankings, however I can't find any info as to when those actually came out...

sybbie719 · March 30, 2007, 4:07pm

the undergrad rankings come out later this year

jonri · March 30, 2007, 9:01pm

"It seems that most people just take it for granted that Yale is the best without any understanding of why."

Well, a lot of people out there in the heartland don't think Yale is #1. They assume Harvard is. (So, if you'd like to go to a top law school but practice in Fargo, North Dakota or Eugene, Oregon, folks there are more likely to be impressed by a Harvard degree.) And, of course, most HLS grads will argue that it is the #1 school.

Choosing between Y and H or S and H is a bit like choosing between a LAC and a research university. Y always does well in the ratings in part because it's a much smaller place. Using rough approximations, each entering Yale Law class is about one-third the size of Harvard's. It's harder to get into Yale and a good part of the reason why is just the size of the two schools.

Some folks think that gives H a big advantage in terms of the strength of its alumni network--especially outside the Boston to DC corridor. In my opinion, H is a bit more "national" in the sense that it draws students from all over the nation and sends people to practice law all over the nation.

The student/faculty ratio is substantially lower at Y than at H. While H has cut the size of its first year sections, they are still much larger than those at
Y. On the flip side though, H can offer more courses in a wider variety of fields precisely because it is larger. While both Y and H have good clinical programs, H can offer more specialized clinics in particular areas of law.

But, it's probably true that one of the biggest draws at Y is the grading system. The first semester is ENTIRELY pass/fail. No grades for anyone. That's attractive to many. It's especially nice for those who have been out of school for a while and feel they may need some time to get back in the groove of student life. After first semester, the grading scale is honors/pass/low pass/fail. Low pass is pretty rare. There's no rule on honors. Some profs give a substantial # in each class. Others might give only a couple. So, since the grading policy is so subjective, no effort is made to produce a gpa. Nobody graduates from Yale with honors. (That doesn't mean that students don't compete for other things.)

At Harvard, you get grades right from the get-go. A gpa is calculated. Honors are given. (Summas are rare--like one every 5-7 years.) The top 10% of the class gets magna (or, of course, summa if there is one.) (Barack Obama graduated magna.)There is a numerical cut off for cum laude. There are prizes for the top two students in the first and second year class and an award for top student in each graduating class.

I think there's an argument to be made that the students at the top of the H class have a real advantage they wouldn't have if they'd gone to Y. Everyone KNOWS they are at the top of the class because everyone has a gpa. That everyone includes employers. On the other hand, being in the middle of the class at Y is probably a pleasanter experience than being in the middle of the class at H, in part because you are NOT worrying about your gpa and you know that your diploma will look just like anyone else's. (At H, the diploma and your listing in Martindale-Hubbell and other directories will note if you graduated cum laude, magna or summa and that will be true for your entire professional life. If you graduated with honors, that's an advantage. If you didn't, it's a disadvantage.)

And, of course, there are non-academic issues such as the fact that most folks prefer Cambridge to New Haven.

I'm sure that many will disagree with portions of this assessment, but I hope it gives you some ideas of the pros and cons of each.

stoneimmaculate · March 30, 2007, 9:04pm

wow, thanks for that jonri it's very helpful

Datkid · March 31, 2007, 7:10pm

"(At H, the diploma and your listing in Martindale-Hubbell and other directories will note if you graduated cum laude, magna or summa and that will be true for your entire professional life. If you graduated with honors, that's an advantage. If you didn't, it's a disadvantage.)"

But really how much of a disadvantage will it be to have graduated from Harvard without honors? It seems like you'd only be at a disadvantage to those Harvard grads who did graduate with honor.

stoneimmaculate · March 31, 2007, 11:48pm

I have no first hand experience but I would be surprised if the whole honors/summa/magna would haunt you too long after law school.

You're always going to be evaluated on performance, once you start showing your worth as an attorney no one is really going to care what honors you received other than for bragging rights at cocktail parties.

sakky · April 1, 2007, 6:46pm

[quote]
At H, the diploma and your listing in Martindale-Hubbell and other directories will note if you graduated cum laude, magna or summa and that will be true for your entire professional life. If you graduated with honors, that's an advantage. If you didn't, it's a disadvantage.)

[/quote]

Really? I was poking around Martindale-Hubbell just recently, and I have never noticed any 'cum laude' status listed next to any of the lawyers that I checked out.

For example, consider Jeffrey Kindler, current Chairman and CEO of Pfizer. According to his official Pfizer biography, he graduated magna from Harvard Law School. Yet I don't see any 'magna' honorarium for Kindler listed in Martindale-Hubbell. All I see is that he earned a JD from Harvard, and was admitted to the bar in 1980, but no indication of how well he did at Harvard.

<a href="http://www.pfizer.com/pfizer/history/jeff_kindler.jsp%5B/url%5D">http://www.pfizer.com/pfizer/history/jeff_kindler.jsp</a>

Or take Supreme Court justice Antonin Scalia. All reports indicate that he graduated magna from Harvard Law. Yet Martindale-Hubbell seems to have nothing to say about that.

<a href="http://www.oyez.org/justices/antonin_scalia/%5B/url%5D">http://www.oyez.org/justices/antonin_scalia/</a>

Note, I'm not talking about the Martindale-Hubbell database that is available to the public. That database shows very little. I'm talking about the database access that you would get if you're a member of a Lexis-Nexis subscribing organization. I have such access, and yet I can't find any information about the honors status of any Harvard Law grads through MH.

So this means one of 3 possibilities. Either I don't know how to properly use MH (which I suppose is possible). The official biographies of these guys may be false, and that Kindler and Scalia didn't graduate magna at all. {But if that is the case, then I would surmise that Pfizer and/or Kindler himself is liable for securities fraud in deliberately publishing false information.} Or, MH doesn't actually list academic honors status.

So if somebody could show me how to use MH to display the honors statuses of various lawyers, that would be great. Or if somebody could actually direct me to one of the other directories - I think I have access to all of them - that does publish such status, that would also be great.

jonri · April 1, 2007, 7:55pm

Portion of the listing for the New York office of Skadden Arps from <a href="http://www.martindale.com%5B/url%5D">www.martindale.com</a> (which does NOT require a subscription):

Joseph H. Flom, (Partner) born Baltimore, MD, 1923; admitted to bar, 1949, New York. Education: College of the City of New York; Harvard Law School (LL.B., cum laude, 1948). Awarded: L.H.D., Queens College, 1984; LL.D., Fordham University 1990. Editor, Harvard Law Review, 1947-1948. AV Peer Review Rated

James F. O'Rorke, Jr., (Partner) born New York, NY, 1936; admitted to bar, 1962, New York. Education: Princeton University (A.B., cum laude, 1958); Yale University (LL.B., 1961). AV Peer Review Rated

Roger S. Aaron, (Partner) born Cleveland, OH, 1942; admitted to bar, 1969, New York. Education: Dartmouth College (A.B., magna cum laude, 1964); Amos Tuck School of Business Administration, Dartmouth College (M.B.A., with high distinction, 1965); Yale University (LL.B., 1968). AV Peer Review Rated

Peter Allan Atkins, (Partner) born Brooklyn, NY, 1943; admitted to bar, 1969, New York. Education: Brooklyn College (A.B., magna cum laude, 1965); Harvard University (LL.B., cum laude, 1968). AV Peer Review Rated

William P. Frank, (Partner) born New York, NY, 1941; admitted to bar, 1967, New York. Education: Georgetown University (A.B., 1963); Fordham University (J.D., 1966). AV Peer Review Rated

Morris J. Kramer, (Partner) born Brooklyn, NY, 1941; admitted to bar, 1966, New York. Education: Dartmouth College (A.B., 1963); Harvard University (LL.B., 1966). AV Peer Review Rated

Henry P. Wasserstein, (Partner) born Brooklyn, NY, 1940; admitted to bar, 1967, New York. Education: Brooklyn College (B.A., 1961); Fordham University (LL.B., 1966). Case Note Editor, Fordham Law Review, 1965-1966. Law Clerk, Hon. Charles H. Tenney, U.S. District Court for the Southern District of New York (1966-1968). AV Peer Review Rated

Daniel E. Stoller, (Partner) born New York, NY, 1945; admitted to bar, 1969, New York. Education: University of Rochester (B.A., 1966); Columbia University (J.D., 1969). AV Peer Review Rated

Robert C. Sheehan, (Partner) born New York, NY, 1944; admitted to bar, 1970, New York. Education: Boston College (B.A., 1966); University of Pennsylvania (LL.B., 1969). AV Peer Review Rated

Edward J. Yodowitz, (Partner) born New York, NY, 1943; admitted to bar, 1972, New York. Education: Long Island University (B.S., 1965); University of Baltimore (J.D., 1969). AV Peer Review Rated

Edmund C. Duffy, (Partner) born New York, NY, 1942; admitted to bar, 1967, New York. Education: Boston College (B.A., magna cum laude, 1963); Columbia University (LL.B., cum laude, 1966). AV Peer Review Rated

Kenneth A. Plevan, (Partner) born Havre De Grace, MD, 1944; admitted to bar, 1970, New York. Education: Harvard College (B.A., cum laude, 1966); Harvard Law School (J.D., cum laude, 1969). AV Peer Review Rated

Vaughn C. Williams, (Partner) born Los Angeles, CA, 1945; admitted to bar, 1969, California; 1971, District of Columbia; 1977, New York. Education: Harvard College (B.A., 1966); Stanford Law School (J.D., 1969). President of Stanford Law Review, 1968-1969. Law Clerk, Hon. Carl McGowan, U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit (1969-1970). AV Peer Review Rated

Jeffrey Glekel, (Partner) born New York, NY, 1947; admitted to bar, 1973, New York. Education: Columbia University (A.B., magna cum laude, 1969); Yale University (J.D., 1972). Note and Comment Editor, Yale Law Journal, 1971-1972. Law Clerk, Hon. Edward Weinfeld, U.S. District Court for the Southern District of New York, (1972-1973); U.S. Supreme Court Justice Byron R. White, (1977-1978). AV Peer Review Rated

Franklin M. Gittes, (Partner) born Newark, NJ, 1947; admitted to bar, 1973, District of Columbia; 1975, New York. Education: Lehigh University (B.S.Ch.E., 1969); Georgetown University (J.D., 1973). Editor, Georgetown Law Journal, 1972-1973. Law Clerk, Hon. John Biggs, Jr., U.S. Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit (1973-1974). AV Peer Review Rated

Douglas M. Kraus, (Partner) born New York, NY, 1949; admitted to bar, 1974, New York. Education: University of Pennsylvania (B.A., magna cum laude, 1970); University of Chicago (J.D., 1973). Associate Editor, University of Chicago Law Review. AV Peer Review Rated

Jonathan J. Lerner, (Partner) born Brooklyn, NY, 1948; admitted to bar, 1974, New York. Education: State University of New York at Binghamton (B.A., 1970); St. John's University (J.D., magna cum laude, 1973). AV Peer Review Rated

Barnet Phillips, IV, (Partner) born New York, NY, 1948; admitted to bar, 1974, New York. Education: Yale University (B.A., 1970); Fordham University (J.D., 1973); New York University (LL.M., 1977). Associate Editor, Fordham Law Review, 1976-1977. Graduate Editor, Tax Law Review. AV Peer Review Rated

Neal R. Stoll, (Partner) born Philadelphia, PA, 1948; admitted to bar, 1974, New York. Education: Pennsylvania State University (B.A., 1970); Fordham University (J.D., 1973). AV Peer Review Rated

Benjamin F. Needell, (Partner) born Rahway, NJ, 1941; admitted to bar, 1967, New York. Education: Rutgers University (B.A., 1963); St. John's University (LL.B., 1966). AV Peer Review Rated

Peter E. Greene, (Partner) born Danbury, CT, 1947; admitted to bar, 1971, Connecticut; 1980, District of Columbia; 1981, New York. Education: Mount St. Mary's College (A.B., 1968); University of Connecticut (J.D., cum laude, 1971).

Jerome S. Hirsch, (Partner) born New York, NY, 1948; admitted to bar, 1975, New York. Education: State University of New York at Binghamton (B.A., 1970); Fordham University (J.D., 1974). AV Peer Review Rated

Jeffrey W. Tindell, (Partner) born Newark, NJ, 1949; admitted to bar, 1975, New York. Education: University of Wisconsin-Madison (B.B.A., 1971); Georgetown University (J.D., 1974). AV Peer Review Rated

Robert E. Zimet, (Partner) born New York, NY, 1949; admitted to bar, 1975, New York. Education: Cornell University; Queens College of the City University of New York (B.A., 1971); American University (J.D., 1974). Comment Editor, American University Law Review, 1973-1974. AV Peer Review Rated

Matthew J. Mallow, (Partner) born Brooklyn, NY, 1943; admitted to bar, 1967, New York. Education: Brown University (A.B., 1964); New York University (LL.B., 1967; LL.M., 1968). AV Peer Review Rated

Shepard Goldfein, (Partner) born Englewood, NJ, 1948; admitted to bar, 1976, New York; 1977, New Jersey. Education: Rutgers University (A.B., 1970; J.D., 1975); University of Chicago (M.A., 1977). Phi Beta Kappa. Editor, Rutgers Law Review, 1974-1975. Articles on martindale.comAV Peer Review Rated

J. Gregory Milmoe, (Partner) born White Plains, NY, 1947; admitted to bar, 1976, New York. Education: Cornell University (A.B., 1970); Fordham University (J.D., 1975). Articles Editor, Fordham Law Review, 1974-1975. AV Peer Review Rated

Alan C. Myers, (Partner) born Brooklyn, NY, 1951; admitted to bar, 1976, New York. Education: Dickinson College (B.A., magna cum laude, 1972); University of Pennsylvania (J.D., cum laude, 1975). Phi Beta Kappa.

Stuart N. Alperin, (Partner) born Brooklyn, NY, 1953; admitted to bar, 1977, New York. Education: State University of New York at Binghamton (B.A., 1973); Syracuse University (J.D., 1976); New York University (LL.M., Taxation, 1980). Phi Beta Kappa; Order of the Coif.

Richard R. Kalikow, (Partner) born New York, NY, 1949; admitted to bar, 1975, New York; 1979, Florida. Education: Cornell University (B.S., 1971); Fordham University (J.D., 1974); New York University (LL.M., 1979). AV Peer Review Rated

Matthew A. Rosen, (Partner) born Philadelphia, PA, 1952; admitted to bar, 1976, Pennsylvania; 1979, New York. Education: Swarthmore College (B.A., 1973); Boston University (J.D., cum laude, 1976); New York University (LL.M., 1979). AV Peer Review Rated

Sheila L. Birnbaum, (Partner) born New York, NY, 1940; admitted to bar, 1965, New York. Education: Hunter College of the City University of New York (B.A., cum laude, 1960; M.A., 1962); New York University (LL.B., 1965). Phi Beta Kappa. Articles on martindale.comAV Peer Review Rated

Stephen M. Banker, (Partner) born Flushing, NY, 1952; admitted to bar, 1978, New York. Education: Cornell University (B.A., 1974); University of Pennsylvania (J.D., 1977).

Samuel Kadet, (Partner) born New York, NY, 1949; admitted to bar, 1978, New York; 1994, New Jersey. Education: State University of New York at Binghamton (B.A., magna cum laude, 1971); St. John's University (J.D., cum laude, 1977). Phi Beta Kappa. Editor, St. John's Law Review, 1976-1977. AV Peer Review Rated

Lou R. Kling, (Partner) born New York, NY, 1951; admitted to bar, 1978, New York. Education: New York University (B.A., magna cum laude, 1973; J.D., 1977); University of Illinois (M.A., 1974). Phi Beta Kappa; Order of the Coif. AV Peer Review Rated

Martha E. McGarry, (Partner) born Boston, MA, 1951; admitted to bar, 1978, New York. Education: Middlebury College (B.A., cum laude, 1973); Fordham University (J.D., 1977).

Richard T. Prins, (Partner) born Grand Rapids, MI, 1950; admitted to bar, 1979, New York. Education: Calvin College (B.A., summa cum laude, 1972); University of Michigan (J.D., cum laude, 1977). AV Peer Review Rated

Alesia Ranney-Marinelli, (Partner) born Ithaca, NY, 1952; admitted to bar, 1977, Delaware; 1986, New York. Education: Michigan State University (B.A., 1973); Harvard Law School (J.D., cum laude, 1977).

Wallace L. Schwartz, (Partner) born Poughkeepsie, NY, 1952; admitted to bar, 1978, New York. Education: Harvard University (B.A., 1974); Cornell University (J.D., 1977). AV Peer Review Rated

Michael E. Gizang, (Partner) born New York, NY, 1952; admitted to bar, 1978, Ohio; 1982, New York. Education: University of Pennsylvania (B.A., magna cum laude, 1974; J.D., 1978). Phi Beta Kappa. AV Peer Review Rated

Charles Morgan, (Partner) born Syracuse, NY, 1950; admitted to bar, 1978, California; 1980, New York. Education: The Wharton School, University of Pennsylvania (B.S., 1972); Pepperdine University (J.D., 1977); New York University (LL.M., 1981). Certified Public Accountant, New York, 1973. AV Peer Review Rated

Fred B. White, III, (Partner) born Somerville, NJ, 1947; admitted to bar, 1972, New Jersey and District of Columbia; 1976, Massachusetts; 1983, Delaware; 1990, New York. Education: Wheaton College (B.A.,1969); George Washington University (J.D., with honors, 1972).

C. Thomas Kunz, (Partner) born Los Alamos, NM, 1949; admitted to bar, 1976, New York. Education: Colgate University (B.A., magna cum laude, 1972); Cornell University (J.D., magna cum laude, 1975). Phi Beta Kappa; Order of the Coif. Editor, Cornell Law Review.

AV Peer Review Rated