<p>dunnin,
I agree with your characterization of ND and that goes to the value sets of the students. I also agree with your assessment of how many on CC, and probably most in the college application process, view positively the value of a survey like Payscale (while hopefully understanding the pitfalls therein). I know that this also probably pains you. And sorry as well to add to your pain as you surely know that I sympathize with the views of those who have a strong interest in the financial outcomes for students of various schools. </p>
<p>As for the relationship between the post-graduate financial outcome and a great undergraduate education, I don't automatically dismiss pre-professional programs as being lousy undergrad educations nor do I automatically assign a higher quality to the path you support. Just because someone is very interested in their post-graduate employment prospects does not have to translate into someone who can't also develop strong critical thinking skills and/or an interest in areas beyond the for profit world. I can see value in each, depending on the individual and his/her interests and needs. However, I think that those in either camp frequently don't assign equal value to the perspectives of their opposites. This is most evident in the USNWR rankings and their PA scores which certainly don't attempt to reflect the views and values of those interested in the for profit world.</p>
<p>Another question: Is WUSL (ranked 12th) superior to Notre Dame (ranked 19th)?
Third Question: Is UPenn (ranked 5th) superior to MIT (ranked 7th)?
</p>
<p>Averages of USNWR ranking between 1987 through 2007</p>
<p>Harvard University___________________ 1.7
Princeton University____________<strong><em>2.1
Yale University</em></strong>________________ 2.4
Stanford University _____________<strong><em>4.3
MIT _</em></strong>__________________<strong><em>5.5
Duke University</em></strong>________________ 6.3
Caltech____________________________ 6.5
Dartmouth College______________<strong><em>8.4
University of Pennsylvania</em></strong>_<strong><em>10.1
Columbia University</em></strong>_______<strong><em>10.4
University of Chicago</em></strong>___________ 10.6
Cornell University_______________<strong><em>11.9
Brown University</em></strong>_______________ 13.0
Northwestern University_______________ 13.4
Johns Hopkins University_________<strong><em>14.1
Rice University</em></strong>_________________ 14.5</p>
<p>Washington University in St. Louis___<strong><em>16.8
University of California at Berkeley</em></strong><strong><em>18.3
Emory University</em></strong>____________<strong><em>18.7
University of Notre Dame</em></strong>_________ 19.2
Vanderbilt University_____________<strong><em>20.2
University of Virginia</em></strong>________<strong><em>20.9
Georgetown University</em></strong>______<strong><em>21.6
University of Michigan at Ann Arbor</em></strong>_ 21.9
Carnegie Mellon University_________<strong><em>22.3
UNC at Chapel Hill</em></strong>____________<strong><em>23.8
University of California at Los Angeles</em></strong>_ 24.3
Tufts University_______________________ 26.5
University of Southern California__________ 35.7
</p>
<p>Does that answer your question? You can't deliberate based on a single years worth of data. Stretch out your mind and broaden your senses. Some 20 years of data is pretty good info in fact to accurate depict where each school actually lies, beyond the annual fluctuations and yearly "oohs and ahhs" lol :)</p>
<p>You are obviously not a scientist/engineer. Just because you base your argument on the accruement of data from USNWR does not mean that any of it has any validity. The only way you can prove that your interpretation of rankings has any validity would require proving that the kernel methods of USNWR are objectively unbiased and conform to the strictest standards of the criterion for "success", if there is such an objectification. </p>
<p>Nice thread resurrection. Care to explain your reasoning? I’m a prospective student for Cal and I’ve only heard that the academics there (at least for some subjects) are intensely challenging, with only a certain % of people allowed to get As in some classes.</p>
<p>Harvard and UC Berkeley are worlds apart, in my opinion. It’s almost impossible to argue about any two colleges being better than the other (unless you solely count objective factors such as ranking or number of Nobel-winning alumnis), but simply because one college is objectively determined to be better than another (in this case probably Harvard, at least for certain undergraduate programs–but maybe Harvard is only ‘better’ because they’re more selective and accept less students–who knows), that does not mean the college is more recommended for people to attend. One may wow employers with a Harvard degree over a Cal degree, but in a case where one would have been happier–and therefore a better learner–at Cal than Harvard (not because it’s a better school, but the location, people, etc.), one would be more equipped to deal with what job he or she eventually lands (assuming that the job is related to his/her major).</p>
<p>Another thing is financial aid (then again, I skipped the last 17 pages, so maybe someone’s already brought this up). If I got accepted into both Harvard and Cal, I’d go against everything I said in my last paragraph (even though I admire the proximity of Cambridge to Boston and other things about Harvard over Cal) because, given my family income, I wouldn’t have to worry about undergraduate-school debts if I somehow magically got into HYP…very magically, as I’m not even applying to those schools. But that would be phenomenal.</p>
<p>Just saying, I’m not a fan of comparing/debunking universities.
Yeah, so.
Anyone from California? I don’t know about east coast people, but talk to any high school student–random people in California, and they won’t really put Berkeley up on a pedestal. So many countless people in our family and friends I’m acquainted with have gotten into Berkeley and many have turned it down to go elsewhere (As a subjective note, I don’t recall seeing a lot of Facebook statuses saying “OMG I got Berkeley!” as opposed to “OMG I GOT HARVARD B!**CH”).
Up in California, Berkeley doesn’t seem to have the “prestige” and “high class look” as Stanford carries. Berkeley is kinda seen as the place to get drugs and “hippie-liberal sitters” or w/e.</p>
<p>
I do subjectively agree. These universities (With the addition of MIT and Caltech, might I add?) are for the most part considered a a stronger achievement than getting into Berkeley. At least thats how it is in California.</p>
<p>Also, my grandfather works as a professor at UCLA. Search for Prof “Eri Srivatsan.”
He told me that education in UCs are pretty much the same at the undergrad level. Whether it be UC Davis to Irvine to Berkeley…they’re all great institutions. I’m not sure how credible his statement is, but since he’s a prof…
He also admits that Berkeley is a bit overrated in the name due to it being the oldest :rolleyes: UC. But ehh.</p>
<p>My grandpa was the Dean of Veterinary Medicine at UC Davis for 29 years and was apart of other UC related things like the committee to pick the first chancellor of UC San Diego. Anyway, he actually said he didn’t like Berkeley’s undergraduate system and didn’t recommend me to go there. Maybe he’s a little bit biased, but take it for what it is. I’M NOT SAYING BERKELEY IS BAD, but it’s just a person’s opinion. We can sit here and argue prestige all day long, but it doesn’t matter. Harvard will always win. But I will say to east coast people that on the west coast, places like Johns Hopkins aren’t as well known, so just something to point out. What some random people you hang out with think of a university never seems to hurt or strengthen their programs too much. Since I haven’t attended classes at either Harvard or Berkeley, I can’t say which one is better. All I can do is go on a college rankings website and find that Harvard is better.</p>
<p>I look into academic and research rankings a lot about Top universities. Seriously, Berkeley’s research is Absolutely Top 5 in this world. The only true competition Berkeley might have when it comes to the international rankings is Harvard. Not only ARWU ranks Berkeley Top 3 internationally, Times higher also ranks Berkeley’s Academic and Research Top 5 almost in every field among different subjects.</p>
<p>In the USA universities like Duke and Dart could be a little more famous, but like I said, Berkeley is internationally much more famous than Duke in other countries and research institutions all over the world. Say, in China we all know Berkeley is ranked just 21 in the USA but when we look into its research and Nobel prize plus Turing and Fields Medal, which accounts to its real academic level, Berkeley beats every university in this world.</p>
<p>From an international perspective, Berkeley is always regarded a Top 10 all over the world while Duke and Dart are not. I must admit Duke is harder to get into and probably much better in undergraduate education, but most Top scholars like academy of science and engineering would go to Berkeley since there is where Real Academic is.</p>
<p>Finally I give my suggestion: for undergrad, pick Duke and Harvard. for grad, Berkeley is home to Top scholars in every field.</p>