<p>I've been telling my kids "no" to things they wanted ever since they were old enough to point to a cereal box on a grocery store shelf. And yes, I did exercise value judgments: I always had plenty of money to buy foods I approved of (string cheese, yogurt, peanut butter, whole-wheat bread) -- and no money at all to the stuff I didn't (Gummy Bears).... I made my kids spend their own money for candy.</p>
<p>So yes, college is the same. It's my money. I've promise all along at least the cost of an in-state public -- anything beyond that, then my judgment and values come into play.</p>
<p>We did the same as jpro and calmom. We set out very early that we'd pay the full price of state school tuition ($16k). That gave her 2 very good schools she could attend for free basically (U of MN, U of WI). She could apply to privates but it would be up to her to make up the difference in scholarships, loans or work.</p>
<p>As long as you've set the guidelines early and then let them choose I think there's not much they can complain about - well, maybe they will anyway.</p>
<p>calmom. Good job. I have seen too many whining kids in grocery stores getting whatever they want. I agree that this sets the tone for later life.</p>
<p>When my four kids were aged from 2 through 9, I was walking through a store and saw woman with her approximately 8 year old, out of control, bratty child. She said to the child, "See. There are FOUR kids who are all well behaved." I smiled and said, "I spank." She stood there open-mouthed and said nothing (I do not know if she reported me to the authorities).</p>
<p>You may or may not agree with spanking (and I did not do it very often), but early discipline, including with finances, definitely allows a kid to understand that HE IS NOT THE CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE. You indicated that you allowed your kids to buy candy with their own money. My wife and I were similar in this regard, but my kids knew that I reserved veto power even over the money they received from babysitting, birthday gifts, etc. If I felt something was too much money to be spent on a particular item, I would simply tell them they were not allowed to buy it, and they obeyed.</p>
<p>My oldest daughter has been accepted at Princeton and CalTech, and we have some financial aid this year, but I know that for the next few years I will receive no aid whatsoever. I have told my daughter (who intends to major in bioengineering and then go to med school) that I would much prefer to help her get through med school with much smaller loans (I cannot necessarily pay for ALL of it). In her heart, my daughter would like to go to CalTech to see how smart she really is (she is at PreFrosh weekend right now). But I am recommending that she attend Tulane, Case Western, or Pittsburgh with substantial merit aid. If she opts for CalTech or Princeton, I will help her to get through undergrad with minimal loans (by the way, they have really lousy financial aid compared to Princeton), but I will not help AT ALL with med school. I am hoping she selects Case Western or Pittsburgh.</p>
<p>We always told our 2 S's that the money to attend one of our state u's
would be there for them.
If they want something different, they would have to come up with scholarships. Additionally, for any scholarships received that dropped the COA at state univ. that amount would stay in their college fund with their name on it and will be theirs to do with as they please upon graduation. S1 is a freshman at our big state u. with good scholarship money and is very pleased at the thought of having some money to "start his life" in 3 years.
It also makes him study a little harder because if his gpa goes down, he loses the scholarship which now equates to losing money out of his own pocket.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I smiled and said, "I spank." She stood there open-mouthed and said nothing (I do not know if she reported me to the authorities).
[/quote]
I never had to. NO always meant NO - and whining, begging, & tantrums never worked. When my son threw a tantrum in the store at age 2, I left my shopping cart in the aisle, picked my screaming son up and carried him to the car and drove home. My kids were pretty smart & figured out pretty quickly that their best route to success was to turn on the charm.</p>
<p>Actually I'm a very permissive parent -- I always believed in having as few rules as possible, but making those rules iron clad.
[quote]
If I felt something was too much money to be spent on a particular item, I would simply tell them they were not allowed to buy it, and they obeyed.
[/quote]
I was more a believer of letting them learn from their own mistakes.</p>
<p>"The creative is the place where no one else has ever been. You have to leave the city of your comfort and go into the wilderness of your intuition."</p>
<p>pafather, It looks to me like you have done a super job of raising your kids. i think they will suceed no matter which school they go to. Good on you!</p>
<p>When it comes to the financial part of the decision, no one will be able to help. We do not know the OP's finances and what sacrifices and risks might be involved. This part of the decision must be the parents. As has already been stated, teenagers are not likely to have the details or judgment needed to weight the financial considerations for the whole family. Sometimes there is some room for compromise, if they are willing to handle working and taking on loans. The parents need to agree with this approach. It is their responsibility to make sure that their kids do not overcommit and take on excessive loans. Most of us enter the selection and application phase without knowing what to expect. We are not sure about merit or need awards. It is unfortunate when the acceptances are received and the parents have to say no for financial reasons. It would be great to have a crystal ball and be able to avoid these situations. It is also very helpful to discuss financial commitments before the applications are mailed. We had discussions with our D but I can tell you a teenager often either does not hear, does not understand, or forgets several months later.</p>
<p>It sounds that the OP can make the sacrifices needed and now the decisions revolve around value. We faced some similar choices and came to a decision that the OP mentioned. We were not impressed by the relative value of some of the midrange choices. Many of these had costs of about 1/2 or 2/3rds that of the top choice. The value of the education just did not seem that much higher than what was available at the State U for no cost. Some of these midrange choices were quite selective and had a solid level of prestige. </p>
<p>We finally opted for the high priced choice. To a large extent, I think the value of this type of choice depends on your kid's characteristics. Our D is moderately smart. Her gifts are exceptional self-discipline, determination and an intense desire to learn and excel. Inspite of her gifts, like most of us, she can lose interest if she is not challenged. We are happy to see her going to a school where her academic achievements put her in the bottom 25%. She is competitive enough so that she will gain immensely. </p>
<p>Now that my D is completing her freshman year, I have no doubts that we made the right decision. It would be all but impossible to describe the opportunities and challenges she has had. I will just say that they are an order of magnitude greater than would have been available at her other choices. It also helps that her school "fits" her personality. She is extremely happy, but many others consider her school as one of those places where fun goes to die.</p>
<p>I think that some very wise advice has been posted here, and anyone who is still confused should reread pafather's and edad's posts. By all means, parents at any stage of this process have the right and responsibility to make rational decisions influenced by finances, no matter what has come before. If information or circumstances change, then so does the equation.</p>
<p>That said, I believe that the measure of "value" is very individual, and that a high quality state school can provide as good an education as the small private non ivy, or ivy, frankly, and allow the student to graduate or begin grad studies debt free. This is no small feat. If the reality is that finances are limited, it would be irresponsible to one's family, to retirement plans, even to the child to spend money one does not have. Only the federal government can do this. How the OP will ultimately decide this issue must depend on family circumstances and instincts with concern for the best (or even 2d best) choice for the child. Another possibility is an economical first 2 years in state or at the cheaper OOS with an agreement to transfer for the latter 2 years to a higher cost institution.</p>
<p>Quote:
[so my recommendation would NOT be to pay the premium OOS $ for a big public unless there is a specific overriding consideration as to why THAT very school is the perfect fit. If you are going to pay the big bucks, then enjoy some level of personal attention!!]</p>
<p>I think this is very good advice, well stated.</p>
<p>"As you didn't show resistance to "The School" at time of application, it may be hard to justify your action now.</p>
<p>I completely disagree with this statement. </p>
<p>There are a number of HS seniors (including my daughter) still making overnight visits, etc. Some students will not have made up their minds until on or about May 1st. Why must parents necessarily decide BY SEPTEMBER which schools they will DEFINITELY fund? Just as students opinions of different colleges change throughout the academic year, so do the opinions of their parents about these same schools. If the OP now believes that a particular school is a bad investment, then he is certainly within his rights and RESPONSIBILITIES as a parent to indicate this to his child."</p>
<p>pafather, most of the parents on these boards have indicated that they gave their child a ballpark figure for what they would or could contribute toward college expenses from the outset, not which specific schools they would "definitely fund". Their approach certainly sets the stage for responsible choices and behaviors on the part of the child AND establishes that the child (who is nearing adulthood) can trust his/her parent to be consistent in the parent's decision about what and what not to fund. Unless parental finances drastically change in the months between submission of applications (I think parents should definitely know which schools their child applies to before the applications are submitted to prevent disappointment in May), parental "change of mind" about value at the last minute may certainly protect their finances, but may put something ultimately more important at risk. If the OP communicated to the child at the outset that any of the schools that he/she applied to would be funded, but, at the finish line, tells the child "Oops, I didn't really mean it"...that's a breach of trust they may have to pay more for later than the $$ in their IRA. Indicating an opinion to a child that one college might be a better financial choice than others in an objective way is reasonable. When finances haven't changed, refusing to pay for a college that a parent had previously agreed to pay for, IMO, is not. Unless, of course, that parent is willing to sacrifice the trust their child has established in them for $100K in their 401K. I'm not.</p>
<p>Our son turned down private colleges with good (not elite) reputations over big State U (honors). Just like PackMom, we offered to put his state school scholarship money in a fund for after he graduates (20k - nothing to sneeze at). He has to work for his scholarship (3.5 GPA +community service) so it make sense that we give it to him. He is a great student and high acheiver - and is quite happy with his choice. We told him we would pay for the privates if they were his dream schools - since he didn't get into any of his dream schools, this didn't turn out to be an issue for us. It would have been a much more difficult decision if he did. I'm just happy that he sees the value equation and doesn't think the money just drops out of the sky. We hope he likes his choice!</p>
<p>Hi
Have a son at Duke, and spouse went to Vandy and we adore Nashville as a city. But those two schools have not inspired your son.
Live in Virginia here. If it is between your private non Ivy and UVa (maybe you refer to Michigan or Berkeley or Chapel Hill?), UVa often feels like a private college and although class size and registration can be dicey, the caliber of the students across the board is very strong. I also like UVa for school spirit, high upbeat mental health atmosphere and significant diversity in race, states represented and even economic diversity..although a portion of students there are remarkably affluent for a state university. A significant portion of the kids at UVA are from the DC region and have very interesting life stories and transient backgrounds and often have parents who are more "rich in life experience" than in money and perhaps work in our government's infrastructure. Almost any kind of student can find a social circle.
Personally, we didn't think our S would like class size at UVa for his learning style and it was missing an extracurricular that was essential for him. But it can hold its own against many great colleges and then some. The thing that is most undeniable thing about UVa is that every alum I meet tells me they adored their four years there, so there must be something in the water.</p>
<p>When my S got into one of his "dream" schools, it came without merit money. It was by far a better fit for him than any other college accepted at. Absolutely no regrets. He got well-paying jobs in labs & summer jobs (equal to merit money at other schools). Another boy I know became an R.A. at his college. Sometimes choices open up once in college.</p>
<p>We started saving for our son's college education when the first gift US bonds started coming in from relatives after his birth. He knew what he wanted to do by the time he was in sixth grade. We told him that if he did what he needed to do to get into the college he wanted to go to we would do what we needed to do to send him there. He did and we did.</p>
<p>quiltguru- you elaborated on my sentiments exactly. Saying No was not the issue for me, but more so in in timing of saying No-- or at least setting parameters before the applications were sent in. I definitely agree that it can become a matter of trust (and maybe control too) that will far outlive the 4 years that the kid is is college. To give the impression to your kid that it was fine to apply to the school and then after the acceptance comes in say "Oops, I really didn't mean it.... will have a damaging effect in all future situations with your child. If you didn't mean it now- when can your child take you at your word? And is money the only factor?? or is it that YOU don't like the school in question and prefer your child go elsewhere? That may also send the message to your kid "that mom knows best" and mom will ultimately decide where you spend the next 4 years not you.<br>
I'm going back to my original thought- once (as a family) you decide to send in the applications, it is sort of a committment by all that all the schools are acceptable- UNLESS it is a financial burden due to lack of merit awards, or scholarships that didn't come through as you were hoping- etc. It is tough to go back on your word once you gave your kid the impression that the school was ok during the application process. You can certainly give advice and try to give a strong argument why college B is better than college A- but ultimately your kid is the one who has to make the choice in where he wants to spend the next 4 years of his life.</p>
<p>Since we are only wealthier than 2/3rds of American families ($60-$65k), for us this never could arise. Colleges could give my d. enough money to attend (we could pay the EFC, which doesn't amount to a hill of beans), or she couldn't attend. Period. No such thing as "dream" schools, any more than we dream about Bentleys (which, for both kids, would cost around the same.) We wouldn't be "saying no" - an admission without sufficient tuition discounting would be the same thing as their "saying no" - as far as we were concerned all aid was "merit aid".</p>
<p>Our experience is similar to that of 2/3rds of American families, except that "prestige schools" found my d. desirable enough to offer her admission and enough bucks to attend.</p>
<p>*I'm going back to my original thought- once (as a family) you decide to send in the applications, it is sort of a committment by all that all schools are acceptable- UNLESS it is a financial burden due to lack of merit awards, or scholarships that didn't come through etc. *</p>
<p>we together , developed the criteria that we used to evaluate schools before applying and while waiting for decisions.</p>
<p>So we settled on two top choices- one that we already knew would be a financial fit- and one which would only be a financial fit if they offered lots of money ;)
Before we recieved any packages- we had already identified what we were willing and able to pay- it wasn't a choice of - well if you get into this school we will pay $10,000, but if you get into that school we will pay $20,000.
We felt that if a school was a good fit, and worth her time and effort in attending, then we would pay what we had agreed upon.
Ultimately, she had two top choices, one a financial fit, and the other was only possible if they offered a strong aid package. </p>
<p>As it worked out however- they did offer a strong aid package, and she eagerly accepted the offer.
I realize that some families are in the situation of child applying to a school that meets 100% of EFC- but for some reason they have tweaked the financial stats so that the school EFC is nowhere near the FAFSA EFC.
This would really bite & seems deceitful.</p>
<p>My D school was quite clear that they relied on FAFSA EFC, even though they also had their own aid forms and PROFILE. IT would have been very disappointing, to agree to pay EFC, but then find that the school increased that.</p>