Has anyone just said no to kids choice?

Parents Forum
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<p>D wants a BFA in musical theater.</p>

<p>She can go to a state school for free. Not only do we have a prepaid plan, but she also got 75% tuition, a $2K a year service scholarship and is in the running for another one if she goes in state. Basically, she'll go for free AND have spending money to boot.</p>

<p>She went to visit the campus and she hated it. She was accepted but not for the MT, only for a regular BA, not what she wants.</p>

<p>She was accepted at a well-known conservatory for MT. This is where the problem lies. This is a private institution with no need based fin. aid. I am a single mother, no job at this time and sure can't afford to pay out $34K a year after they get the loan $ we can apply for from the government - I think it's about $7K?. This is where D wants to go and so far is the only firm yes she got. She was wait listed for 2 MT schools and accepted at another school, but again, not for a BFA, only BA. It seems these MT programs are tought to get in to and the schools accept very few applicants.</p>

<p>So what do you do in a case like this? Force the child to go to the state school because it's free knowing she didn't/doesn't like it, and also knowing she won't be able to earn the degree she's set on earning? Or do you go for what you know (or thinks she knows) will be the right place for her and put your life in hock? </p>

<p>I just can't see me forcing her to go to the state school knowing she'll be unhappy even before she got there. I feel that if I did that I could possibly ruin her entire future, and of course, who will she blame? How can I say no to a dream school for her. She's worked hard her entire life, never gave me an ounce of trouble, is extremely dedicated and deserving of this. </p>

<p>I read a recent article, not sure if anyone posted it before, but it was in the New York Times a few weeks ago. I never read the NYT before, but there it was, I turned it over and saw this article and it was just the same day I told D that if this is what she wanted she would have to be responsible for the loans. </p>

<p><a href="http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060413/SCHOOLS/604130318/1026/LIFESTYLE01%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060413/SCHOOLS/604130318/1026/LIFESTYLE01&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>It kills me to even think about having to saddle her with these hefty loans before she even has a job to pay for them. </p>

<p>I know there are other parents and kids going through the same dilemma. After reading the article above I know she won't be alone in taking on these loans, but as a parent, you really don't want to have to have your children do this.</p>

<p>I know ultimately it's my decision, as well as hers. It's a really tough decision that's causing me a lot of sleepness nights.</p>

<p>Has anyone else been in this type of dilemma? If you forced your child to go to a school that you know they hated, what was the outcome after they started? Or, did you go in to major fin. debt for your child to attend a school that they wanted - and how did you finance? </p>

<p>Thanks for any insight!</p>

42

<p>$34k a year (after the $7k) is $136k for four years. She can't get a loan for $136k. It's not a matter of being able to afford it - she can't get it. So it really isn't a dilemma at at all.</p>

<p>If she, or you, could get such a loan, at 8.5% interest, it would cost $2,569 per month, every month, to pay it off, for TEN YEARS. But that's if you start repaying it in the month you get the loan. If you waited for four years (which you can't), it would cost $3k or so per month.</p>

<p>You could sell the house and be homeless, of course.</p>

<p>I really don't see a dilemma. She (and you) would like something you can't afford. I know of lots of things I'd like that I can't afford. Doesn't make them more affordable. You don't have to "force" her to go anywhere. But she can't go some place you (and she) can't pay for.</p>

<p>Those are the breaks. It's unfortunate, and unhappy. But it shouldn't cause you to lose any sleep. You've raised a wonderful child, and in years to come she will thank you either for not putting yourself on the street, or putting her into debt from which a future actor stands little chance of escaping. (but in the second case, you couldn't even do it if you wanted to...)</p>

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<p>I would not force my kid to go to a school that she or he hated.</p>

<p>What about the option of your D taking a gap year and doing something like Musical Theater and then reapplying to colleges in hopes of getting scholarships to MT programs?</p>

<p>I know that it's possible for teens to get fulltime jobs working with places like Disney. Indeed, I know someone who let her then 16-year-old leave high school to sing and dance with Disneyworld.</p>

<p>Another option: Taking a gap year, moving to a city where she can get excellent singing, acting and dance lessons -- that she pays for herself while working. Then, with those honed skills, she could reapply to colleges.</p>

<p>If your D is not able to audition and get that kind of job, then perhaps she should reevaluate her chances of making a career out of MT. It's a tough field to make a living in, and I don't think it would be worth it to take out huge loans and make major financial sacrifices for a major that one couldn't find a job in afterward.</p>

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<p>MT is not a degree program which offers any assurances of employment at the end of studies. This might need to be the defining issue. If she has not been exuberantly embraced as an MT major, while others have been, it speaks to the level of competition. Even if you could borrow the money, someone has to be employed to repay it. She can major in anything and gain skills for musical theater, even though that is not her original plan. As a retired university professor in the performing arts and the parent of two who have majored in performing arts, this was my criteria: no debts for future (possible un-)employment. One stuck it out and is earning a living, the other is leaving the arts because there is no future, not because of lack of love for it.</p>

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<p>debelli,</p>

<p>Is there any possibility of your daughter attending a school that you can afford and then trying to transfer into the MT program of that school after she works hard and does well her freshman year? I would assume should could probably take at least some of the MT courses without being designated as a major, and she could also get involved in various campus productions, etc.</p>

46

<p>


You are looking at this wrong -- you are not forcing your daughter to do anything. You can afford the state school, and you are offering her the option of attending that school with your financial support. </p>

<p>You can't afford the program she has been accepted to --so that is not a choice. It never was a choice. You don't have the money. You can't afford to take on the debt, and neither can she. </p>

<p>Your daughter has two very reasonable choices: </p>

<p>a) She can go to the state school, get a BA, and then follow her dreams after she graduates. While she is in school, she can plan to audition for summer theatrical jobs or jobs in theme parks or cruise ships -so while school may be boring, her summers can be fun. </p>

<p>b) She can take a gap year and use the time to apply to some less expensive BFA programs. My daughter attends an arts high school in California and several of her classmates are going to SUNY Purchase, which is quite affordable even for out of state students,and I believe they offer a BFA. I'm sure that your daughter may able to find some other programs affiliated with public institutions that are more affordable. During the gap year your daughter can also audition for theatrical roles, or for cruiseship or theme park jobs.</p>

<p>Our job as parents is NOT to fulfill our children's dreams. If we do that, we really are taking away their dreams and making those dreams our own. Dream-fulfillment really needs to be a personal journey. </p>

<p>Our job as parents is to provide for our children during childhood as best as we can, and give them an upbringing that will enable them to function well and make good choices when they reach adulthood. </p>

<p>What you need to do now is sit down with your daughter and simply give her the financials. Can that prepaid tuition plan be transferred or applied elsewhere? If so, find out the details so that you can tell your daughter how much money she has to draw on if she elects my plan #b above and is looking for alternative BFA program.</p>

<p>Then let your daughter figure out what to do. </p>

<p>You aren't saying "no" to anything. You are just telling her what you are willing and able to do, and allowing her to make the choices.</p>

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<p>No brainer - she should attend state school, and participate in as many MT functions she can. Local community, university sponsored, whatever. Take voice lessons, drama classes, and enjoy her 4 years of a free ride. She doesn't have to be a MT major to participate in many opportunities.</p>

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<p>Mini, Calmom and anxiousmom have said all that I would say (but much better, of course!) Your daughter is lucky to have the option of the public university and should jump at that option. I can't imagine that MT is a field which depends on someone having a degree in that major -- it's probably much more about talent. She could major in music or dance or even something practical, like accounting, and still work in the field after graduation. The reason that some people will take on huge debt to finance medical or other professional education is because the payback seems clear. It's hard to imagine that MT (even if it were possible for you or your D to get the loans) would pay off. Like many kids, she may even change her major.</p>

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<p>As a single mom I can understand how difficult it can be to help our children realize their goals and ambitions. Part of doing that is also helping to outline the limitations and boundaries one has to face in achieving those dreams. I agree with calmom 100%. You aren't forcing her to do anything. It is her education, her dreams, her desires and her committments.</p>

<p>We have five kiddos in our family, all college-aged and high school. We were all on the same page as far as finances and realistic abilities to pay, both on my part but more importantly on THEIR part. Kiddo #4, son #2, is right in the middle of his decision process now. It was crystal clear before he started applying and now what his financial situation will be; not being a burden on his family or foolishly placing himself so far in debt it would hinder his opportunities after undergrad.</p>

<p>Again, I am well acquainted with how hard it can be as a single parent going through this process. I would not advise anyone in my position to take on that level of debt for kiddo's undergrad.</p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

<p>Kat</p>

50

<p>Thoughtful thread - and some excellent advice has been given. Nothing to add to the wise words here but felt as though I wanted to applaud.</p>

<p>In tomorrow's NY Times Education Life supplement there's a "Notebook" piece (last page) by Paula Marantz Cohen titled "When the Best Is Not Good Enough: Getting into an elite college isn't a matter of life and death. Why do we think it is?" Take a look at it if you can.</p>

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<p>I so appreciate all the replies and time you've all taken to respond. </p>

<p>PAFATHER asked a question which my D has brought up, which is that if my daughter was able to transfer to another MT program after her freshman year, which would be yes. What I am not quite clear on is, from what I have heard with MT is that it's hard to transfer courses from one program to another, that when a transfer happens you start as a freshman. So why waste this first year if this is correct?</p>

<p>Still lies the problem of the state university. She only applied to the one since it had the BFA for MT and she hates it there. She auditioned and visited there and just plain old didn't like it. This was before she knew if she was even accepted or rejected to the program. </p>

<p>It's not a matter of taking off a year and honing her skills, she's got the skills and the experience of quite a few years of performing under her belt. This type of program is hard to get in to and they only accept a few each year in them, so for her to be accepted to this school is a big achievement in itself.</p>

<p>I don't know what I'm going to do. Still hoping there is some scholarship that she's applied for that will come through, some way to pay at least the first year and then see what happens after that. Cashing in her prepaid isn't going to help much compared to the cost of the school. I'm still looking in to possibilities, and praying. Maybe on of the MT programs she's been waitlisted for will come through, with some fin. aid with it - hopeful thoughts!</p>

<p>Again, I really do appreciate everyone's input and suggestions. I know I'm not the only one facing this dilemma out there, there are people in worse situations than mine, there are bigger problems and issues than mine. I thank G-D that I have wonderful kids and a roof over my head. I'm a firm believe that what's meant to be will be and that everything happens for a reason (though I may not always understand the reason!)</p>

<p>Thanks for being my listening board! :)</p>

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<p>debelli, I understand that your D feels she is in a difficult position, unfortunately made so because she only applied to one financial safety which she did not love. The other parents are correct, neither she nor you will be able to even get $136K in loans to cover her education, so the pricey BFA program is out. It is quite unfortunate that this wasn't made clear for her before she submitted her applications, so she wouldn't be facing this disappointment and also unfortunate that she did audition for music schools in voice as this is another way into MT as a career. MT programs are some of THE most competitive college programs for admissions in the country and transfer INTO an MT program is almost unheard of. Several of my D's friends who are MT majors at Interlochen, one of the best high school MT programs in the US, have not been accepted to ANY MT programs. One was only accepted to one college, Westminster Choir College, for a BA. That's the bad news.</p>

<p>Here's the good news. Although many of the current leading actors on Broadway come from well-known MT programs such as the one at University of Michigan, not all even majored in MT in college. Kristin Chenoweth graduated from Oklahoma City University with a BFA in voice. Jeff Daniels, not in MT, but a superb actor never even finished his degree at Central Michigan University. So, your D does not need a BFA or to major in MT to be a star on Broadway. If she's got the goods and is willing to work her tush off, she can get there from just about anywhere. Will it be easy? Is getting to the top in any entertainment field easy? Heck no. But she can attend the state school next year, perhaps transfer to the school of music the following year either there or elsewhere for a degree in voice, and take it from there. </p>

<p>And, please, YOU are not forcing her to do this. We have all had deal with financial constraints that have not permitted us to do or have exactly what we want in our lives. Struggling to make things happen in alternative ways from alternative places is what makes us and this country great.</p>

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<p>I completely agree with calmom.</p>

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<p>I guess we'll have to sit down and really talk about what's going to be expected and what we can do. Even though a single parent her Dad is involved in her life and will be paying half of whatever financial burdens college brings - thankfully I don't have a ex that takes no interest in their child, unlike my poor nephew. Though his financial situation isn't great either, he's still having to help 50/50.</p>

<p>I'm not giving up hope that something will come through for her to be able to go to the school she wants. Should she get off the waitlist at another school maybe that will change things. We still have some forms to fill out for fin. aid from different places that her CAP advisor just gave her, so maybe, if it's really meant to be, it will pan out. Again, I truly feel if it's meant to be it will. </p>

<p>Thanks again everybody. Maybe I'll pop back on after we figure it all out and give you an update, which hopefully will be a good one.</p>

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<p>We have said no. My son had an $8K scholarship to his first choice, Tisch School of the Arts (likewise for a BFA) versus tuition in cash grants at three schools --Vassar, Brandeis, and Sarah Lawrence. We have told him to choose from the schools where he has the scholarships. If he does not want to follow the money, he needs to find a way to fund it himself. We always told him that he would need a scholarship beyond the cost of the State U. We do not have the money and would need to go into debt for this. His brother is also in college. I cannot even imagine how we would pay it off. </p>

<p>Our son wants to be a creative artist, a writer. Unfortunately for him, we, his parents, are also writers: This is the life of the writer: Not a wealthy one; unless you are very lucky, you are not rich. I think that we writers and other creative types may be leaving it up to the likes of the investment bankers and doctors and some attorneys to stock those BFA programs full of their kids. </p>

<p>Hopefully, we have taught our son enough about writing and creative thought in the arts (among other things) throughout the time he was growing up to compensate for his loss of 4 undergraduate years at NYU. I think he will STILL be able to hit the ground running, and do not believe that these programs can possibly determine ones success in the arts --and I say this not through speculation but through daily experience.</p>

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<p>And by the way, let me add: It has been my job for 20+ years to hire magazine writers for consumer pubs in NYC. I have never EVER found a particular degree to confer ability or to signal that this or that writer will work out. On the other hand, I have found many incredible writers without any degree at all. You cannot imagine how many Columbia J. school graduates cannot do the job to a high professional level, at all. In my hiring and assigning, a degree, graduate or undergraduate, means less than zero to me. I do not even LOOK at that part of the resume, really. I am interested only in track record and clips. I operate this way because decades of experience has taught me this is the way I will find the best writers.</p>

<p>I do look at the degree when hiring fact checkers with no experience --I figure at least they have learned what a fact is in grad school. Our kids aspire to more than that.</p>

<p>I cannot speak to Broadway, but I imagine it is similar: If you have the goods, you will go the distance.</p>

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<p>In yesterday's NY Times there was an article titled "The Bank of Mom and Dad" <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/20/fashion/thursdaystyles/20money.html?ex=1146456000&en=46ccaa2badfb1237&ei=5070%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/20/fashion/thursdaystyles/20money.html?ex=1146456000&en=46ccaa2badfb1237&ei=5070&lt;/a> It's really not one of those "failure to launch" types of pieces...</p>

<p>Here's just a little bit from it
[quote]
..The bottom line is that the assumption that financial obligations to children ended after graduation from high school or college is going the way of the pay phone. Today, parents are finding that they are on the hook for more, sometimes much more — contributions of thousands of dollars a year to help young men and women get on their feet economically, often into their 30's....

[/quote]
There are a variety of examples cited - some kind of amazing ones, others maybe not quite so out there... See what you think,debelli, it might give you more insight as to what could be down the road for your daughter - especially in the performing arts field.</p>

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<p>Will he need the money for grad school - business, law, whatever?</p>

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<p>Calmom-
Loved your post!
Maybe because it hits close to home at our house right now.
Our Son has applied to transfer for Junior year....was accepted to his 'dream school' with a 25% tuition grant. Still will be over twice the cost of his other two choices per year AND he would need three years rather than two to complete his degree. Isn't going to happen.
Son knew going in that he would need to earn a large merit award to make it possible.....still it is hard to watch him decline.</p>

<p>But, he is fortunate to have two other reasonable opportunities to choose between. Just as I 'choose' to drive a 13 year old minivan, all commodities, including college, are subject to the size of one's budget.</p>

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<p>Blumini, I saw the Bank of Mom and Dad article in the Times and I had to laugh. Not because these parents are helping out their grown children, or that helping grown children is such a bad thing (my own folks have been known to help me out occasionally even though I'm 40-something with two kids of my own), but compare this article to the one of several weeks ago, where the Times reported parents were encouraging their college-bound kids to take on huge education loans! No wonder these grown children need help from mom and dad -- they're paying off huge education loans.
This is really so sad.
We are in the same situation, where D wants Univ. of Chicago with big-time cost and zilch financial aid, as opposed to in-state Cornell. We have advised her that if she goes to Chicago -- a great school, by the way -- we can only pay up to what Cornell would have cost us, and that she will have to take out loans for the rest. This kills us, because we know what a burden debt is, but we figure she will either hate us for not letting her go to her dream school, or she will hate us for letting her get into debt. For us, it's a lose/lose situation -- damned if we do and damned if we don't.
Honestly, so many people have told us that they are still paying off their education loans into their 30s and 40s that it seems almost the norm. This is heartbreaking to us, but our daughter says she is willing to deal with it, and is actually now thinking of careers, like teaching, whereas before the reality of the situation sank in, she had no idea what she might be interested in.
While the amount of debt she will be taking on (at least $25,000) seems horrible to us, there is no way to convince her of this. Perhaps the only positive way to look at this is that it might help her think about her future in more realistic terms.<br>
I keep saying it's going to be sooo different with daughter #2. We did discuss this before the applications were sent out, and we told her she would go wherever she got scholarships and aid, but we never expected she would get nothing from any of the twelve schools to which she applied. With May 1 looming, we feel like we are out of options.</p>