<p>^^^That's not how UMich works. The pre-screening is just, well, a screening, and not an academic acceptance. When you apply to the BFA program, the admissions decision is all or nothing. In other words, they don't say no to the BFA but yes to the university (I'm ONLY talking of UMich now.....each school works differently in this regard). For instance, I have a D who applied to UMich for a BFA in MT. She did not get into the BFA and she had very good odds to get into UMich academically. But her admissions decision was a denial as her application was for the BFA and so if not accepted into the BFA, it meant a denial to UMich. HOWEVER, I believe at UMich, you may be able to apply to two schools in separate processes.....not entirely sure but pretty sure you can apply to the liberal arts/sciences school separately. This means two application processes that are not connected. But I know for sure if you are an applicant for the BFA in MT, you are either accepted into the BFA or not at all (likewise at Tisch). At NYU, however, you can ONLY apply to one school at the university. I think you MAY be able to apply to two schools at UMichigan as separate application processes. I don't know anyone first hand who has done that at UMich but I just have this recollection of it being possible there. But the part I know for CERTAIN is that as an applicant to the BFA in MT, you are either accepted to the BFA or denied entirely to the university. Also, the pre-screening is not an academic acceptance. Simply they screen applicants to not bother auditioning anyone who would not be admissable academically. However, once you audition, your entire application package, including academics, is evaluated. It is not like passing the pre-screening is equated with an academic acceptance, but simply that you are in the ballpark for consideration academically and then the music school will look at everything when considering who to admit after auditions.</p>
<p>Thanks so much for your help, Soozie! I was aware that the pre-screening was not an academic acceptance, but I did not know if you could get accepted to one or the other. Thanks again!</p>
<p>You can apply to two schools/colleges. All you need to do is writing extra essay(s) for the second school/college you are interested in. Many students in music are pursuing double degree. UMich is very supportive of that. If you have not applied to other school (e.g. LS&A), you might want to ask the admission office to check if you can just submitt the required essays.</p>
<p>Some schools want your application in far ahead and will either accept or reject you together (both MT and academically) - CMU & UM for example. </p>
<p>Other schools have a separate process for academic application (which must be in by an applicable due date), but they will decide and accept or reject you together (both MT and academically) - NYU, Syracuse, Ithaca. Note that if you apply for an alternate major, you may have a chance for a different major somewhere like Ithaca.</p>
<p>Schools which had a totally separate academic and MT application and admission process included Elon, OCU, BW, and Point Park. I believe Otterbein is also this way. I assume that at all of these schools one could attend for a different major, if accepted academically.</p>
<p>I have encouraged my D to select schools that allow her an "academic" backup plan (meaning minus the BFA in the event she does not get into the MT program). For example, at Penn State, you can also be considered for an undecided major and gain entrance (if you are academically qualified) if you don't get into the BFA. However, you must declare the undecided major as a second major on your application. At Elon, you can still gain academic acceptance if you don't make it into the MT BFA. </p>
<p>However, at some schools, you are at a disadvantage if you don't make the MT BFA. Syracuse, for example, will look at your second choice major if you don't make the MT program -- HOWEVER, you are placed at the "bottom" of the pile for your second major admissions consideration because the students who want your second major as their first major get first dibbs. Hope that makes sense. Also at U of Miami, I was told by the music school (not theatre arts) for the MT BFA, that if you are rejected from MT, the student must contact admissions after the rejection is rendered -- which is VERY late in the general admissions process -- and let admissions know you would still like to be considered for the university. The admissions person told me it's very tough to get in at that point because it is so late in the process. He said that if there is room left, they will consider you if you meet their academic admissions standards. So it's all very complicated and different for each school.</p>
<p>The U of Michigan option for both MT and another major is called the dual applicant option. It's a box (and additional essay) you check off on the application. My understanding from admissions is that you can be considered and admitted academically for the other major on its own if you do not make the MT program -- however, that too, is no small feat at a school as selective as Michigan. I'm all about "Plan B's." Getting into an MT BFA seems very, very difficult and unlikely though I wish my D and all of the other students on this forum ALL THE BEST -- I hope you all get in!!</p>
<p>I won't reiterate how it works differently at each school as many have pointed out. But picking up on NewbieMTMom's post #25, in my opinion, a better "back up" instead of going to the BFA school but just attending as a BA (if it is a school that has a separate admissions process) would be to apply to BA schools (non audition ones) where the student can still DO theater and major in it, etc. etc. In the first scenario, the student may end up attending a school where they can't do much theater as a BA or be second fiddle to the BFA program, or have to study an entirely different major (if only a BFA in theater is offered and not a BA theater program). Why not have some schools that are a BA to begin with that offer a strong theater program, that simply is not a BFA? Seems like the student would at least still get to major in theater.</p>
<p>Another thing is, just speaking now of personal experience, I know for my D, many (not all) of her schools were ONLY chosen because they offered a BFA in MT and had they not offered such a program, her college list would be entirely a different list of schools. For instance, some schools that offered a BFA in MT were not as selective academically as she might normally apply to but their BFA in MT are really strong and you gotta go where the MT programs are offered and it is not quite the same as a regular college selection process. I know if my D had not gotten into the BFA in MT program at some of her schools and if they had allowed a student to attend for something else, she would not have attended. She chose those schools for their BFA in MT program mostly. One exception happens to be the school she landed at, NYU/Tisch because one attraction for her there is that it is a more academically selective school like she prefers. My D did not have any BA schools on her list (something I would normally say NOT to do!) but if she had BA schools, they would NOT be the same as most of the colleges she had applied to as a BFA candidate. It would be a very different list of strong BA schools with good theater. In other words, she would not give up theater to attend a school. As well, many of the schools that offer a BFA are not schools she would typically be as interested in without their BFA and would choose differently. </p>
<p>So, I think rather than have one's BFA school as a BA back up if they offer such a dual admissions option, is to find BA in Theater schools (with MT opportunities) to add to the list. I can think of a couple of exceptions such as Indiana which has a BFA in MT and a BA Individualized Major in MT. I have had some apply to Indiana for a BFA and use it as well for the BA back up. In that case, they still can study MT. That is not true at all BFA in MT schools. So, it seems to me that it may be a better option to have BA schools on the list where one could study theater and/or are schools you'd be selecting based on the usual college criteria and not because the school happens to offer a BFA in MT. Also, I think a student may have more theater opportunities as a BA student in a school that does not ALSO have BFA students, generally speaking. I would create BA back ups that are additional schools on the list, not necessarily the schools chosen for their BFAs (if they even have a dual admissions process....not all do).</p>
<p>I second SoozieVTs post above :). At many schools with BFA MT programs, BA students will have limited (or NO) access to musical theatre classes, and performance opportunities in the department. Each school is different, however.... depending on the school it could be a viable option (as with Indiana University). The only way to really find out what kinds of opportunities BA students have at a BFA school is to contact the program directly and try to speak to students on that path.</p>
<p>One thing I didn't mention before but think I will now, particularly seeing Kat's post....</p>
<p>While any audition-based school is NOT a safety, by nature of the audition process, I think another way to build a balanced list is to add audtion-based BA programs....kind of a happy medium between BFAs and non-audition BAs. Of course, the odds of getting in are still relative to the academic qualifications, etc. and so one school may excellent odds for one candidate but still a big stretch for another. And it is nice that there is an audition which gives the artistic program some selectivity. So in this vein, I would look at schools like James Madison, American, Plymouth State, Wagner, Manhattanville, and several others. Again, they are not safe as they have auditions, but generally speaking, an audition-based BA is usually easier to get into than an audition based BFA (there ARE exceptions!!!!), but then you have to factor in the academic level of selectivity (ie., American and James Madison are more selective universities than Plymouth State, Wagner, Manhattanville). But, in any case, a balanced list of different degrees of both academic and artistic selectivity in terms of BFA programs is wise, and then possibly adding audition-based BA programs and then non-audition BA programs, one of which should also be an academic safety (not all non-audition BA schools are academic safeties......such as Northwestern or for some kids, Muhlenberg is not a safety).</p>
<p>Anyone familiar with the theatre BAs at Cornell and Dartmouth and if so, what do you think of them? </p>
<p>Thanks!</p>
<p>I think both Cornell and Dartmouth have good theatre departments. Cornell's program is strong and there is also the dance, but I don't know that they do much with musical theater (though there very well may be student run musicals, I didn't check). They bring in resident professionals/mentors. My daughter has a good friend whom she has done musical theater and dance with for 8 years at theater camp who headed to Cornell and attended for a year. She ended up transferring to Tisch (Playwrights Horizons Studio) and is interested in directing, though also is a skilled choreographer. This doesn't mean Cornell theater wasn't good but she didn't like Cornell and wanted a BFA (but had only applied to BAs and in fact, applied ED to Cornell). For straight theater, I think Cornell is worth a very good look. </p>
<p>As far as Dartmouth.....it is a strong department with just undergraduates. They also have a partnership with LAMDA in London. While it is also straight theatre, this past fall they put on Hair. There is a student run musical theater group too. I had a client apply to Dartmouth this year and her background is entirely musical theater and dance. She ended up getting in ED at another school and has since withdrawn her app to Dartmouth. The only other familiarity I have with Dartmouth for theater is my older daughter knows a boy who is now a senior there. I know who is he as well. She was in ski races with him growing up and he attended the local ski race academy boarding school in our town and was a talented ski racer. Our local ski academy puts on a musical every year (ALL the kids are attending for ski racing though). This boy was often the leads in the musicals there (I saw them) and was quite good. Well, he went off to Dartmouth as a ski racer. But guess what? He went into theater and is now a senior theater major. My D just ran into him skiing here locally the other day (he is not from our state) and he told her he is applying now for MFA in theater programs (which is a good route with a BA). I think Dartmouth would be a good place to go and do theater. </p>
<p>If you are looking for schools of that caliber academically that are very good for theater, I suggest Brown and Yale. Both are not only excellent in this area, but they have numerous extracurricular opportunities in both straight theater and musical theater (let alone strong a capella groups too). I also suggest Conn College, Skidmore, Brandeis, Boston College, Middlebury, Tufts, and Northwestern. All are excellent schools and offer very good theater and most have MT opportunities as well. I know a bunch of highly talented MT kids who WANTED a BA degree program (and who were competitive for BFAs in MT or even got into them) and many of them have schools like Yale, Brown, Northwestern, etc. as their schools of choice. Many of my D's friends who are top talents in MT are now attending these schools as well. So, if you are looking into Dartmouth and Cornell and are passionate about MT, I would also look at the other schools I named (and others, but just mentioned some that come to my mind off the bat).</p>
<p>Soozie, </p>
<p>Thank you so much for your reply. You are becoming my personal encyclopedia of all things MT and theatre. :) I found what you said very interesting. My daughter applied to 13 colleges - 8 BFA MTs (where her heart is), Cornell and Dartmouth and 3 other backups. I think we are through applying to schools although I'm sure the others you suggested are great too.</p>
<p>Oh, oops, forgot you have a senior. The way your post was asking about those two schools had me thinking "college selection" and I didn't put together that you have a child who has already done her applications! Well, it sounds like you have built a balanced list. That is key and should yield some results! I know the uncertainty is a killer, but things usually do work out and your child will have a nice school to attend next year and you just don't know where that will be yet. I have to remind myself of that very thing as I have a daughter in the graduate school admissions cycle where the acceptance rates are also very low and involve an artistic sort of review as well. But from experience, I know things do work out in the end.</p>
<p>I guess what I'm really asking is even if you're absolutely amazing, if you have like a 24 on your act you don't have a prayer of getting into cmu or nyu or something</p>
<p>Kitkatt,
Admission into any of these programs involves both an artistic evaluation (the audition) and an academic review. But the level of selectivity at every college is different (in both respects). Most of the colleges will not simply accept you based ONLY on your audition. Afterall, you are being accepted as a student at the college and they will need to know that you can succeed in all aspects of the college. At most BFA programs, the audition will be weighted the bigger percentage of your admissions. Still, they will need to review and accept your total package including academics. Some schools treat the academic admissions process separately and some do it as one process where you are admitted or denied in total. But academic review is part of it. But how hard one school is to get in academically is different from the next and one needs to build a list of schools that don't just simply "offer Musical Theater" but are appropriate in terms of artistic selectivity and academic selectivity on an individual basis. And so, yes, you do need to look at your 'stats' in relation to those of accepted students, and no it is not ONLY the audition, even though the audition plays the biggest factor at most schools (it is not usually the 100% factor, unless a stand alone conservatory). </p>
<p>For NYU, actually the artistic review counts 50% of your admissions decision and the academic review counts 50% of your admissions and so at this particular university, the audition is not the MAJORITY of the decision but it is equal with the academic review. I can't tell you if you'd pass academic review at NYU because they look at your TOTAL application.....the SATs or ACT, GPA, rigor of classes taken, class rank, essays, extracurriculars, and recommendations. It is not as simple as a test score and it needing to be a certain number and you are in. A lower test score may be compensated by other strong factors on your record. They evaluate everything. That said, the mid 50% range of ACT scores for accepted students to NYU are 27-31. That means that only 25% of those admitted had below a 27 on the ACT and so the admit rate (chances) if you are below 27 is going to be lower. Your score of a 24 is on the low end for NYU and so on that one factor, it is an academic reach for you but of course, one would have to see your total package and there is no possible way to assess that from what you have shared here. But on JUST your score, yes, it is a reach academically. </p>
<p>At CMU, the audition counts 90% of the admissions decision and academics count 10%. That helps on the academic front. Still, given the very low admit rate (approx. 2%) for the BFA in MT, and they take just a handful of girls, it can only help to have a stronger academic record when it comes down to narrowing the list of those who meet the artistic criteria. </p>
<p>You surely could give these schools a go but also be realistic about the artistic and academic odds at each school and build an appropriate list. Try to make sure your school list is balanced in terms of artistic odds and then also make sure your college list has some reaches, some matches and some safeties in terms of the academic odds (compare your stats with the published stats of admitted students) and lastly, have some non-audition BAs on your list, one of which is also an academic safety (vis a vis your stats). Academics DO count. The audition usually counts more (and you can't get in with a bad audition) but once you do pass artistic muster, you still have to be academically admissable to the school and the level of selectivity in that regard varies from school to school (ie., NYU is much more academically selective than Pace). Also, at NYU, academics count 50% of the decision, which is more than at many of the BFA schools. </p>
<p>So, yes, if you are amazing in the audition, that is going to propel you and it really matters (you can't get in on academics and you MUST have a great audition/talent), but that alone usually will not get you in as there is an academic review at most schools. Some schools are less selective academically than others (you need to research this aspect of each school and not merely apply to schools simply because they offer MT), and some schools count academics a bigger percentage of the decision than others or some even have a separate academic admissions process from the BFA part. You definitely need talent to get in but the admissions decision is not SOLELY artistic. Please know that and build a realistic list that has a balance of odds both artistically and academically in terms of reaches, matches, and safeties.</p>