Having trouble with College List for my Soprano daughter. HELP!!

My daughter is a junior and interested in vocal performance. We are trying to make a list of schools, but I just have no idea. She loves all types of performance but wants to be Classically trained and has more of a voice for opera. We visited Peabody which she loved but we need options and hopefully a place or places where she can receive a generous award. Her grades are good , but her PSAT was below average, awaiting her SAT. She has a beautiful soprano voice and has been studying for years. Everything I read says find as school without a grad program and then the next thing I read says you learn so much from the grad students. I’m driving myself crazy googling. The school websites don’t give you any info, like is it MT heavy or classical? Small program or large? I’m frustrated and we’ve hardly started this process. We can’t visit all of these schools that might not even be appropriate. She would find friends easily. Anyone have a list of schools with smaller vocal performance programs that I could start researching?

There are a lot of universities and colleges with very good music performance programs. I think that you need to narrow down your criteria.

First of all, what is your budget? Also, what state are you from?

Do you want a large university or a small school? Does she want to be in a big city or a small town? Does she want a school that is strong in music and a few other things, or a general purpose university that also has a very strong music program?

What are her grades?

If frustrated by a school’s website regarding its music program, it might be wise to call the head of the program & discuss your concerns.

A couple more questions:

Does she have a private voice teacher? Many voice students get some direction from the private voice teacher and the school choir teacher (if the school is large and has kids pursue music yearly).

A sense of geography and Big U vs LAC vs conservatory (with music schools) would be helpful in narrowing down programs too.

Please note:

MT and VP are usually two separate schools and degrees in a college/university/conservatory. MT is a BFA degree in the liberal arts part of the college/university/conservatory. VP is a BM degree given by a music school. They are often completely separate degrees. Some schools will allow some cross-over. Many do not. So if she wants a VP degree (wants to be a classically trained vocalist), you would be looking for mainly BM degrees in music schools (no MT studies here). Note that some schools will do a BA or BS in music too. Those degrees usually have fewer music requirements allowing for other studies.

To understand degree available, read this:

http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/1948726-double-degree-dilemma-essay-written-by-david-lane.html#latest

As for grad or non-grad students, there is no right or wrong imho. There are pluses and minuses to both…which you are finding out. So it is something to consider as you move forward but if your D does not have a strong opinion yet, you could keep both on the list. There ARE strong opinions concerning this however. You WILL find that. I’m not in “that camp”. I tend to believe that it is more an individual decision as opposed to a rule about right and wrong for vocal studies.

I hope that this helps…and if you can share just a bit more, I’m sure a good number of people could give you some music school suggestions.

So we are from Pennsylvania, As I said she loves musical theater but is leaning more toward a classical Vocal Performance major. She originally was thinking large university but we looked at PSU and she felt the Music just didn’t seem strong enough to her, also in reality from what I’ve been told Public school don’t in general give large awards so likely out of our price range. As far as our budget she is our third child so we as we near retirement we need as cheap as we can get while still providing a good situation for her. She does have a private voice teacher who is great but is not directing us alot as far as college. I think right now she is leaning towards conservatory with some gen ed requirements.

My D auditioned for both MT and VP but chose VP in the end. I’ll throw out a few schools.

The money portion is difficult so I would suggest getting comfortable with a financial safety. People do sometimes overlook their in-state public school bc it may not be as prestigious (and opportunities can be fewer). But vocalists are “young” and a good teacher at an in-state university can do a very good job. Grad students can sometimes get more money…and if she continues and grows…a more prestigious/resource-rich music school could be considered then.

North Texas University gives in-state tuition to all (I believe) and has a very reputable music school.

Ithaca College - smaller and probs expensive but has a reputation for giving money. Many LACs will do this (note many end up competitive with in-state tuition). I know the midwest more…so schools like Oberlin (OH), Lawrence (WI) and St. Olaf (MN) are all known to have very reputable music conservatories/schools which give money. The awards will be bigger with strong academics. While you could target in-state tuition as the goal some will probs be a little more and hopefully one or two less.

Big Us with conservatories - Eastman, Michigan, Indiana and Florida State - will all give money too - but I think with some it can vary so it would be good to know how competitive your D is*. Some people know Eastman better than me so they can comment on the money situation here.

Big privates - Northwestern, USC, Miami - the first two tend to give money more related to academics - meaning if you are talented with great academics, it may become affordable - Miami is knows to give money to most. So again a mixed bag.

Conservatories - Juilliard, MSM, SFCM, Mannes, NEC - scholarships tend to be tighter in this group - that’s not saying that money is not given for talent - just over the years it seems to be hit or miss. If money REALLY matters you may want to limit the number of conservatories.

*If the private teacher is not giving much direction, you could ask that teacher to refer your D to a lesson with a teacher who does give more direction or a faculty member at a nearby university…explaining it’s simply to get an idea of competitiveness and music school suggestions. And if the teacher has some ideas, it’s not bad to have other opinions…as everyone has an “attitude” about what’s right so it’s not bad to get a few opinions.

Note that above about “money” can easily be refuted. I’m speaking in VERY general terms just to give you “something” to work with. So understand that…and use you’re own information as you move forward. Still I’ve been on this board waaay toooo looong so I do see patterns. There is always the kid that gets free tuition or an awesome deal at an expensive school (often mixed into that is high academics for UG). And there is always the kids offered nothing and/or rejected! The funny thing is…that’s the SAME kid!! So music auditions are not for the faint at heart.

Look for a few financial safeties/lower hanging fruit (there can be great teachers at a lot of music schools) so you can sleep at night. And then find a nice mixture of other schools to consider…bc one or two may surprise you.

And I’m sure I made some errors in categories etc in my “ramble” above. So others, feel free to correct me to get the best info to the OP!!

Since you are PA in-state, take a look at Boyer @ Temple. Quite affordable for in-state folks and they do give out talent awards. Very strong music performance and music ed. They do a few operas a year as well as musical theater (different department). Nice mix of UG and grad.

My daughter is MT/Acting but has several friends who attend school for VP. Crane School of Music is top notch and is attached to SUNY Potsdam. SUNY Fredonia also has a great reputation. Syracuse has an outstanding program. They are very expensive but my D friend got full-tuition scholarship and my D will be going there in the fall for Acting and received a substantial amount of scholarships and grants which made it cheaper than state schools.

You haven’t said whether your desire for a big talent award translates into qualifying for need-based aid, which could figure into your calculus.

I can chime in with a couple data points from the last couple years that relate to the above. First, I’m of the opinion that schools with grad students are not to be avoided. My soprano d is at such a program and it has not been a detriment for her. The music school and attached university is big enough that in addition to the three main stage operas there is a student opera company that mounts 2-3 operas a year, and she just got to play a lead in one of the student operas, which was of good quality and a great learning experience for her, and the perfect size role to stretch her a hit but not too much. She also has been able to sing in a fantastic choir that has a mix of grads and undergrads. So, grad presence is all good so far.

A couple minor corrections from experience- Northwestern does not give academic merit aid at any of its schools. The only exception is Bienen which is allowed to give out limited talent scholarships for musicians. It is true that there’s an academic baseline to get in the school at all, but it doesn’t translate to money.

Of the schools my d got in to, Eastman offered the most, followed by Oberlin (mix of academic and talent), NU, and BU. Michigan (you can guess from my handle that we were OOS) Rice, and CMU offered no scholarships at all. Our first kid in college so we did not qualify at all for need aid. She did not apply to any standalone conservatories.

Big qualifier is that who schools offer scholarships to and how much can be related to factors other than the applicant’s talents. Like a shortage of mezzos or basses.

Unfortunately sopranos seem to be in a perpetual state of oversupply, so you may find big scholarships hard to come by, but you never really know.

Temple is worth consideration. D has run into a number of their classically trained students and they are stellar (both at summer programs and as MM students where she is currently finishing BM). They also have good MT. This will be an inexpensive option, smaller than Penn State, and with good music. U Md is another to look in to, but I don’t think there is MT. Again, D knows some singers from their undergrad program who are well trained (now in MM program where she goes to school). Md gives good merit awards that essentially make the cost comparable to in state tuition or better. The program does have a large choral component. Both DePaul and SMU gave generous merit aid (combination of academic and talent), but might be further away than you are looking.

You might want to pop down to DC to attend the Classical Singer Convention this spring. https://www.csmusic.net/content/convention/
While it is know as a competition, there is a huge college fair, just for classical voice. Many of the programs discussed above send representatives and faculty. You can attend master classes and chat with admission reps. and professors about their programs and financials. We attended when D was a jr and met reps from Mannes, MSM, Ithaca, Eastman, Northwestern, Depaw, DePaul, CMU, Catholic U, Rice, Peabody, … (and a ton more I can’t remember). If your D competes, there is also potential scholarship money up for grabs (Eastman generally gives out one full ride, and many smaller schools give nice awards).

Good luck!

I second the suggestion to read the Double Degree Dilemma essay posted closer to the top of this forum. It uses hypothetical individuals to survey the various ways to study music as an undergrad.

Her options include BM (2/3-3/4 classes in music, whether at a freestanding conservatory or university/college school of music/ conservatory, usually via audition), a BA (1/4-1/3 classes in music, often no audition for admission but music supplement, music can be done via lessons and extracurricular performance, possibly some performance component in classes)), a double major, a major/ minor, double degree (music and something else, BA/BM or BA/MM)and majoring in something else entirely and continuing music with lessons and extracurricular performance.

Cost can be big factor for many of us. A state university can sometimes be a good way to go for undergrad as others have said. In NY, Purchase is relatively affordable as well and a good conservatory close to the city. In addition to all the excellent suggestions above, you might look at Hartt too.

Would she want a freestanding conservatory? They tend to be more expensive. University schools of music and college conservatories may be better financially.

If she wants a BA rather than BM, it is often suggested to look at schools that do NOT have a BM program, because the best teachers, roles and opportunities may go to the BM students. This is worth checking out but there ARE exceptions. For instance, Oberlin has recently enhanced their Musical Studies BA. https://www.oberlin.edu/arts-and-sciences/departments/musical-studies

Like and high schooler she can also think about urban rural or suburban, big and small and visiting to get the “vibe” helps, although as you say it is hard to see all of the potentials.

I think it helps to realize she cannot go wrong. There is always grad school. And there is nothing wrong with applying to a range of options, BA, BM< double degree, whatever, and decide in late April.

Does she have peers to talk to? Does she do summer programs? Teachers at summer programs might be helpful if her at home teacher isn’t.

Good luck!

@bridgenail: re; your post #5 above, 6th paragraph: Northwestern University offers a very substantial amount of need based financial aid.

Most free-standing private conservatories are small. So you can expect more attentions from faculty. No need to worry about UG students wouldn’t get much opportunities because there are good amount of MM students at small conservatories. BM students learn from MM students. Also, private conservatories tend to have a smallish scholarship fund so it is “need-aware but very talent-heavy”. Reality is, they just don’t meet “need” (ignore EFC number).

Financial part mattered a lot for us, too. But I wasn’t a CC member that time so we didn’t have much of advices (my son’s private instrumental teacher wasn’t able to help us about college matters). We just agreed with my son applying to only 4 private conservatories (plus one school with video audition that we begged him to apply just to compare financial offers—Absolutely zero intention to attend). One conservatory was a clearly financial safety for us because he could commute from home (but he’s never excited anything about that school except “fancy dorm”). After going through a year of “financial worries”, it worked out great for us and he is now very happy at the small private conservatory of his top choice. But if we had another musician child who is in the track, I would convince to add a few in-state universities with the best possible music program in the list to avoid sleepless nights.

“from Pennsylvania, … our budget she is our third child so we as we near retirement we need as cheap as we can get while still providing a good situation”

I guess we can each tell you what we know about. I do have a couple of family members and a close friend of the family who are into music in a professional sense but I do not know much of anything about music in Pennsylvania. We are very sympathetic with the “near retirement, kid in college” predicament.

Here in New England, I am most familiar with UVM, U.Mass Amherst, and U.Mass Lowell, and the Berklee College of Music. I would not recommend UVM for music at all. U.Mass Amherst has a very good music program. However, out of state costs are around $50,000 per year. U.Mass Lowell would cost about the same. I am guessing that it is going to cost too much. The Berklee College of Music as far as I know costs quite a bit more than this. The New England Conservatory would be around $70,000 per year. I am hard pressed to suggest anything in New England which is likely to be affordable for an out of state student.

I do have many family members in Canada. Many of the universities in Canada have very good music programs. McGill and Toronto are the best known, and probably the two strongest universities in Canada for music. The music library and the music building at McGill are very impressive. McGill and Toronto are academically very challenging. Many other schools are good. Way out west both UBC and U.Victoria are both good for music. U.Victoria would be more economical. Among small universities, Acadia University in Nova Scotia probably has the strongest music program. The total cost of attendance for an international student is about C$30,000, or about $23,000 in US dollars. This is the most economical school with a very strong music program that I know of. The school is small and not well known, but is a very good university in a very attractive small town.

You might also consider Hartt and Westminster Choir College/Rider…

Thanks for the replies so far. She did a summer intensive soloist camp at Westminster choir college last year enjoyed the instruction but the uncertainty of there campus has us unsure about applying. Temple is in our plans to visit and seems like a good option. If I didn’t mention she visited Peabody really liked it and had a sample lesson the professor told me she was on level with what they looked for from freshman.

@jim33h
We are in a similar boat with being utterly confused! As it stands, I dont think we qualify for any FA and so I am really trying to be practical about this whole adventure. I think you’ll find that reading archived posts will help somewhat as well.

Trying to work within a budget and geographic location is a good start.

We are in the North East with Boston/Mass schools being the most well.known in the area for VP…however, the price tags that come with those schools are hefty. From what I hear the scholarships awards are light.

My husband still has college loans we are repaying and we are not keen on taking huge loans for a VP major.

If all the stars align and somehow a nice scholarship happens, I told her to enjoy 4 yrs of school that is centered around music…go after that VP degree. I just have trouble justifying huge debts.

I think the hardest part is really in not knowing where she stands. Is a scholarship possible? Probably? Unlikely?

I guess that’s why people apply to variety of schools…safeties, reaches etc. You just never know the outcome.

We are planning a trip to DC ( did I mention I absolute HATE flying) for Classical Singer in May, so hopefully we can get a taste for some schools while there. I hate flying so much I may actually opt for a 7 hr train vs a 45 min flight!

“we are not keen on taking huge loans for a VP major.”

We heard almost exactly the same message from a professor of voice a few years ago. This professor is a former singer on Broadway. Part of the basic message was that as a singer on Broadway you barely make enough money to live in New York, therefore avoid loans.

It is hard to know what costs to expect from out of state US schools. The NPC is the most obvious place to start.

If she is really interested in classical voice, a BM isn’t going to do it. She will need a MM too. And she will probably do at least one $ummer program in college to get some roles under her belt, meet prospective teachers, and network (not necessary but most kids will do one even if only to judge their relative skill level to be reasonable about expectations). So the money has to stretch for 4 years plus 2 for MM and summers!!

We already spend $$ on high school, so, if she can find something that keeps her in that range for college, I have no issue with her pursuing VP. We will figure grad school out when the time comes and if/then she thinks VP is still her direction.

Pursuing something joyful, that fulfills your life is wonderful but not if once you graduate it hangs over your head like a dark cloud of debt!

We know a young singer who got what we are told is the max aid package for a freshman to CMU (2 yrs ago) at around 40k…leaving her still responsible for like 30k per year. 120k undergrad plus interest. That will take an eternity to pay off, esp with the interest rate for college loans. Scary stuff!