I’m currently a freshman in a highly ranked private school in Chicago. I am taking all honors classes and got a 5.53 on my weighted GPA. Math is certainly NOT my thing and was planning to drop down to advanced math vs. honors (my school has four levels of math- assisted, regular, advanced, honors). My honors math has been so much stress and honestly I don’t think I’m at the right capability level. When meeting with my counselor, she said dropping this class would take me out of the runnings for top schools and things such as premed and business degrees. At my school only honors math can take calculus. I have straight A’s in all my other classes and the come pretty easy to me. For someone who’s planning on not focusing on math for a career choice, but still wants to go to a top university, is this the wrong choice? Thanks in advance for any feedback.
I fear it might be a poor choice. Without exception, admissions officials from first-tier LACs and National Research Universities advise – and, in fact, emphasize – curricular rigor that challenges the student with the most demanding courses available in his school. Without doubt, it’s a highly important selection criterion. It really does not matter what skills the individual’s likely future plans might necessitate, because this near-requirement isn’t about majors and careers; rather, it focuses on one’s ability to cope successfully with daunting academic work.
I sincerely sympathize with your dilemma. However, my advice is to take the tough mathematics courses, to work with your teacher from the first day, and to get tutoring – peer and professional – as required, but EARLY. I recommend the foregoing approach because – critically-- very few of your competitors for the “elite” colleges and universities will not have this potential deficiency. If you do – and remembering that acceptance rates fall in the 5 to 15 percent range – you’re admissions probability will be significantly reduced.
Good luck.
“When meeting with my counselor, she said dropping this class would take me out of the runnings for top schools and things such as premed and business degrees.”
I think what your GC is telling you is that if you drop down a level in math, the evaluation that GCs send into colleges will not include the coveted ‘most rigorous schedule’ evaluation of your transcript that the most selective schools expect to see. That doesn’t mean that you can’t get admitted to many excellent schools with strong reputations - but if you apply to the highly selective schools (acceptance rates of lower than, say 15% to pick a random cut off), you will be compared to your peer with the ‘most rigorous’ rating, and you are at a disadvantage. As for the threat about pre-med and business degrees - that’s sheer nonsense. First of all, there is no such thing as a pre-med degree. If you want to be pre-med, you need to take certain classes, one of which is going to be calculus - and you will need top grades across the board. But you can be pre-med almost anywhere and medical schools don’t care where you go as long as your overall grades and MCAT score is high. Things a a bit different for business majors - but you don’t have to have calculus in high school to be a business major at a reputable school.
Assuming you aren’t hooked on the prestige of a ‘highly selective school’ (and you shouldn’t be), there is a good case to be made for taking the lower level math class. For one thing, math is something that requires a very solid foundation on which to build. Taking a bit longer to make sure you really have it nailed, is a good idea. Secondly, while you could muscle your way through the course with lots of tutoring and assistance, if this is going to be at the expense of your other classes, and your overall quality of life, it might not be a worthwhile trade. Only you can decide how much stress you want in your life. It does not indicate a lack of work ethic or character or commitment to say ‘no thanks’ to doing it the hard way. Third, there is no calculus on the SAT, so the lack isn’t going to show up on your test scores.
And by the way, it’s not an all or nothing decision either. You can stick it out for freshman year (when a lower grade or two tend to be forgiven), and see if you want to continue next year. As kids mature, they often find that some of the more abstract thinking that goes with higher level math actually starts to come more easily to them - be open to that possibility as well.
If you want to go to a good business school, you will need to take calc eventually for most of them. It is easier to take it in high school than wait until you are in college (take it from someone who didn’t think they needed calc and didn’t take it, and had to face it down at Michigan during freshman year with no calc background and some students who had already taken it and were taking again “just to make sure they were solid” in it").
The tip top colleges look to see if you took the most rigorous schedule available to you, so not going down the honors track would cut out the core of what they look for.
It won’t hurt your pre-med or business aspirations.
Except…I have noticed that people who take calculus for the first time in college don’t do as well as those who have seen it before and THAT could hurt your college GPA which would affect medical school admissions.
OP isn’t talking about ‘not going down the honors track’ - OP is talking about one subject - math. A 4.0 with honors in everything except Math is still very impressive. If that alone results in a reduction from ‘most rigorous coursework available’ per the GC, then it’s a trade-off that OP has to make. By the way, I’ve got an MBA from one of the top business schools in the country, and have never taken, or needed, calculus - not in biz school, not before and never since. (But AP Statistics and subsequent stat classes have stood me in good stead throughout my career.)
“By the way, I’ve got an MBA from one of the top business schools in the country, and have never taken, or needed, calculus - not in biz school, not before and never since. (But AP Statistics and subsequent stat classes have stood me in good stead throughout my career.)”
Only to ensure the OP has full information – and based on personal experience – other top MBA programs make considerable use of calculus, as well as statistics.
Not Harvard’s MBA program. Not Stanford’s either. I work with MBAs from many different schools and those I checked with noted that they never used calculus either in their programs. Which top MBA programs are you referring to? Maybe for some elective course in finance. It’s misleading to suggest to students that they need coursework that isn’t required by the schools (check their admissions requirements) or considered necessary for their classes.
@N’s Mom (re post #7):
I’m referring to Fuqua (recently ranked by Bloomberg/BusinessWeek as the #1 MBA program in the US). We used calculus extensively during the first year, in micro- and macro-economic, in Ops Research, in Finance, and even in Cost Accounting (but, I admit, Duke’s program, was quantitatively intense). Further, don’t tell me what experiences I should, or should not, relate to CC participants. You fairly represent your experiences and I’ll fairly delineate mine, noting that in post #6 I did NOT say “all,” I said “other” top programs.
The OP was asking about undergraduate admissions, not an MBA. Dropping out of the most rigorous track available will significantly weaken his admissions chances for “top schools”. Furthermore, what I’ve seen is that pre-med students who take things like Calculus and Physics for the first time in college, often meet with disaster.
For business, no one will care.
If the highest track of Math is not for you, then it is not for you. Those highest schools may not be for you either. But you know what? They aren’t for 95% of the other students either.
I’d take the “advanced” track in math only, but I’d make sure I ‘offset’ this by accelerating or doubling up in another area. Since you’re all honors in other subjects, this should be doable and would solve your problem.
HOWEVER, if you are currently getting a B or more in your current class while maintaining A’s in the other classes and getting enough sleep, then try to stick with the “honors” math track too.
Well since you said you’re not focused on math as a career choice at the moment, that cuts out pre-med, pre-pharm etc. Even though you probably will not be classified as the most rigorous in your GC’s rating of you, I don’t think it will prevent you from being considered. Sure, there will be other kids with competitive stats but there’s only so much you can do through the school.
Is it possible for you to take Calc at a CC or online? If so, you should definitely pursue that route. You have four years to go through high school and gain a possibly stronger footing in math.
“Further, don’t tell me what experiences I should, or should not, relate to CC participants.”
At no point, TopTier, did I tell you want experience you should or should not relate. I said you were being misleading.
The point is that OP - a high school freshman with a demanding course load - should not be pressured into taking a high level math class that he or she isn’t comfortable with in order to attend some possible, future calculus-requiring MBA program. OP should be doing what makes sense for OP in high school. If the GC is suggesting that a lack of calculus in high school is going to keep OP out of business school - well, we both know that’s foolishness.
I think the key here is that OP is a freshman. There’s no need to go into a high-pressure math track that s/he feels unprepared for, considering there’s plenty of rigor in the rest of that top prep school curriculum. Students with a decent GPA from that school WILL get into good colleges. In addition, this may “allow” OP to look elsewhere than HYPSM/Williams, and check out the many excellent colleges out there instead of going straight for prestige. Suggesting OP will not be able to do premed or business is false…
(the GC may not be aware of it, but plenty of students start with precalculus in college, including premed students and business students… Premeds often do in order to prepare for calculus, because you’re right, jumping straight into calc in college is tough, as for business students it depends on the business school’s pool of applicants.)
OP: if you don’t have calculus, “offset” it by doubling up in science, or by pursuing two foreign languages at a high level, this will be satisfactory for basically all the colleges you may want to look into. Also, remember that you don’t have to major in business to work in a business - your job will depend on the skillset acquired in your major - philosophy or statistics or neuroscience or Arabic - as well as your internships, not on the exact title of the major.
@N’sMom: I did NOTHING that is – or was – misleading. I said, “other top MBA programs” (Sloan and Fuqua, certainly). That’s entirely factual. I know you highly conversant in English; do you not understand the meaning of “other?”
Ross at Michigan requires it for admission to their BBA program (they will accept AP credit for it, or you can take it when you get to Michigan… like I did). It is specifically states that you need calculus, and lists your options in the entrance requirements.
The MBA program at Ross words it more vaguely, but they say:
I don’t think they mean geometry and pre-calc.
I am not claiming that MBAs use that calculus background (I have the BBA from Ross and an MBA from another Big 10 school, and have never used calculus again after leaving the calc classroom). But there certainly are some top programs that require it.
I haven’t inspected the admissions information for Stanford and Harvard, but they may have similar language to Ross that doesn’t SAY calculus, but implies it.
Can we stick to the OP’s original question, please? This is a freshman being told his/her entire college future depends on staying in the highest level math course.
My opinion is that your ultimate goal should be to understand whatever math you end up taking. If the highest level math is completed with an okay grade, but you don’t “get it”, you will just be borrowing more trouble.
And, being a freshman, you might have other options during high school years to do some catch up work in math. But don’t feel you have to “double up” in other subjects. Do what you can academically, find some passions you can delve into, volunteer where you feel you can make a difference, and find some ways to back away from the stress of it all.
Best of luck to you, OP !!
If OP does well in precalculus in a rigorous private school, s/he should be able to handle calculus in college, and, if in doubt, would be allowed to take precalculus in college before taking calculus. Calculus does NOT need to be passed before freshman year in college, it can be taken in college.
In addition, imagine our freshman OP realizes s/he is really good at math and loves it: s/he can accelerate later on. And if his/her school won’t let him/her enroll in calculus even though s/he completed precalculus at the local college, then s/he could take calculus as dual enrollment too.
In short, there’s no need to create pressure in one subject for a freshman. OP has many years ahead. 
I think we are sticking to the original question. The OP asked about business and pre-med, and top universities.
One of my kids did not take Calc in high school or college. And was recently thinking about getting an MBA, and regretting that she had not taken care of this, as it would be a hassle to go do it now. Some med schools also require Calc (and won’t accept the AP credit). If my kid were thinking about med school, I’d suggest they take Calc in high school and then they would be more likely to get good grades in it in college (pre-med GPA is hard to maintain, this is something they could do to help themselves).
Now… some high schools have multiple math tracks that have a Calc class in them that is not AP Calc, and that could be a good compromise for this student. I actually think they are getting good advice from their GC given their possible goals. More students would benefit from asking questions freshman year and taking the prep classes they need for the degrees they might want in the future. And in general if the OP is thinking about paths where Calc will eventually be required, better to get to that level in high school as a good springboard to college level classes.