<p>I would guess that just about any school, while being a healthy and empowering environment for most students, ends up being toxic for some. This might be due to factors like intolerance, competitiveness of the student body, weather or many others. This is really the biggest thing we should be looking for when we are looking for "fit" but can you really tell in advance what kinds of features/issues will end up being problematic for a given student?</p>
<p>The question came up for me because a friend knows of 3 kids who had serious difficulties (2 depression, 1 substance abuse) at a school on my DS14's list. We don't personally know anyone who has attended this particular school, and have not yet visited (though we will). I do have several friends whose kids loved it when visiting but for one reason or another did not end up there.</p>
<p>Obviously there are kids who struggle with depression and substance abuse at every college and many not enrolled in college. But it seems that the atmosphere of a school CAN contribute to certain difficulties, so the question, when you hear about a cluster of kids with difficulties, is whether there are environmental factors that contribute to those difficulties, or whether you're just looking at random incidents that could (and do) happen anywhere. But I think it's irresponsible not to try to figure out whether there's some pattern where a certain environment may be toxic to a certain subset of students. The hard thing is, you may not know in advance what factors would end up being problematic for a particular student, particularly if he has not had exposure to similar factors in the past. </p>
<p>You can visit and get your snapshot and a "gut" feel but I doubt that's really enough to know that a school won't end up being toxic for your kid. Any advice on figuring this out?</p>
<p>DS14 is our second child and the one I worry about most with regard to these issues, for a number of reasons. But it's hard for me (and for him) to guess what kind of environment would be best (or worst) for him.</p>
<p>I am not sure whether or not you can totally generalize, but I did notice that at my alma mater, some of the kids who struggled with depression were those from warmer climates who had trouble dealing with the northeastern winters . . .I think it is hard for someone raised in California for example to truly understand how gray skies day after day and cold precipitation can begin to wear on you . . .especially when you aren’t used to it.</p>
<p>You couldn’t know this without doing some sort of long-term social science study; data collection would be difficult, to say the least! And the results would not come out in time to help your kid:) Be careful not to assume that a small sample (3 kids) represents a valid pool from which to draw a conclusion. Also, there are things you just don’t know. It’s possible, for example, that the kids who struggled with depression in college were already struggling with it prior to matriculation. There are no guarantees that a particular student will end up happy at any given institution. However, if you can combine a realistic knowledge of your own kid with an unvarnished view (after visiting) of the institution, you can probably make as good an assessment as you can of the place’s “fit” with your child’s temperament or vulnerabilities. Above all, do not let rankings or prestige blind you to what might be a really poor choice for your kid. My D has mentioned that the people she knows who are miserable at her school tend to be those who chose it because of rankings and reputation, not because of its inherent qualities.</p>
<p>Since my son developed mental illness as a college freshman, I have made it a point to talk to MANY parents. You would not believe the number of kids who become ill when they go to school. You could pick any school in the country, at random, and be SHOCKED at the number of students who struggle(d).</p>
<p>18 to 22 is the age at which most people develop mental illness. It’s the age that’s “toxic,” not the school.</p>
<p>I would say that at least 95% of the time, when I mention that my son is ill, the response is, “Oh, my [son] [niece] [neighbor’s brother], etc., etc. has [bipolar disorder] [anxiety] [depression] [schizophrenia]…”</p>
<p>I really don’t think there’s any way to tell other than a “gut” feeling. I have dealt with depression and anxiety since my early teens. I, luckily, have it as under control as it’s ever going to get. However, in my junior/senior year of high school that was most certainly not the case. Just walking on to the campus of another college that I was accepted to sent my anxiety through the roof. The students seemed cut-throat, super competitive, and it didn’t seem a supportive environment. I didn’t encounter that when I stepped on to the campus of my current college. I went with my gut and couldn’t be happier. It was an extremely supportive environment. </p>
<p>In cases that ML is talking about, it’s likely not going to matter one iota where you’re at. I don’t think there’s any real way to answer your question.</p>
<p>There are schools which offer support in a non-judgmental “all successful people struggle from time to time” kind of way. And those that do not.</p>
<p>I don’t know if you can predict which kids are going to slip into something troubling. But I think you can predict which schools will be highly supportive. </p>
<p>I know kids at MIT, Yale, Wash U (so not super huge but not tiny by any means) who have found HIGHLY supportive deans, residential counselors, Masters, etc. who pretty much walked them over to health services and handed them the phone and said, “Call your mom to let her know you’re OK and that I’m with you.” And then we all hear the stories of kids who fall through the cracks and then the parents are left wondering why there was no adult to notice that the kid hadn’t left the room in four days. or was hiding out in a computer lab and not coming home to shower. etc.</p>
<p>So I think you can ask questions and observe. If it takes three days to get a non-emergency appointment with a psychiatrist on campus that would be a red-flag to me. If the RA’s role is to make sure the kids don’t burn down the dorm but doesn’t engage or know the kids names- that’s a red flag. If the Dean of Students has a voice mail message which warns “If my mailbox is full then send me an email” that’s a red flag.</p>
<p>I would not consider an environment where no one would notice such things to be toxic. </p>
<p>One of my kids went to the University of Maryland at College Park. A very large number of the kids there come from the Baltimore or DC metro areas and can easily go home whenever they feel like it. The first time my son came home overnight, I said, “Remember to tell your roommate where you’re going so that he won’t worry about you.” My son said, “That’s not how it works here. People go home all the time and nobody ever tells their roommates or anyone else. Nobody worries if you’re not here.”</p>
<p>This may seem a little disconcerting – and maybe it would be an argument against this particular university for some kids – but it’s not toxic.</p>
<p>^^^ That’s not toxic in itself, but definitely not a good place to be if you happen to be one of the kids whose mental illness first shows up when you hit 20yo. I’d surely like my kids to be in an environment where someone would notice if they started behaving oddly or withdrawing or displaying other warning signs.</p>
<p>Toxic would be an environment that would <em>cause</em> a kid to have issues (too much stress, for the wrong kid, or not enough sunlight, for a kids who ends up needing it, or too much of the social life revolving around drinking and getting stoned, or whatever in the environment might be “wrong” for a particular kid). </p>
<p>A school where no one would notice if something is wrong isn’t toxic, but it would be a very big red flag for me.</p>
<p>I went to HYP for grad school, and in my campus dorm 1st semester, one student committed suicide in his room, another frequently ran his hand over open-flame of our communal kitchen’s stove, another spent an inordinate amount of time peeping into Women’s Bathroom to peek at naked ladies, another locked herself into a toilet stall daily to weep loudly for at least an hour, several cross-dressers wore women’s clothing, and one fellow always “flew” with his arms wingspread across campus.</p>
<p>Assuming that the school is the problem and not the kids is part of the problem.</p>
<p>Substance abuse didn’t start because of a school, it started because for whatever reasons a kid decided to put substances in his/her body.</p>
<p>I don’t want to completely absolve the schools of responsibility for the campus they create, but knowing your kid is the best way to determine fit.</p>
<p>Is your kid easily swayed by the opinions of others or to peer pressure. If so than you may want a more Puritan college. Is your child prone to very low emotional lows, if not depression? If so, sending them far without any support will be tough. Same thing for the homebody.</p>
<p>Anyway, my advice still stands. The kid is trying to get to know the colleges. The parents really need to study their kids. Too many parents try to insert themselves in too much saying “when I was young…” or “I went to X school…” or “My parents never/always did…” We have to take us out of the equation and focus on them. Then we focus on our budget because that determines a lot too.</p>
<p>“DS14 is our second child and the one I worry about most with regard to these issues, for a number of reasons.”</p>
<p>Then think long and hard about what supports you want to have available for him at his college/university. An institution that did not have the supports someone else needed at some time in the past may have the ones your son will need when he gets there - or it may have had them all along because their issues weren’t/aren’t the same as his issues. His needs are what matters. If you can define them better, someone here may have suggestions for what you need to be looking for.</p>
<p>My husband, son, daughter, and I all went to universities where no one would have noticed unusual behavior under most circumstances. The only exception would have been if we were living in doubles in the dorms and the roommate complained to the RA, but some of us lived in singles or off-campus, and some types of unusual behavior would not be reported by a roommate because they don’t annoy the roommate.</p>
<p>It never even occurred to me to expect that a college environment would provide this kind of hovering over my kids. Nobody hovered over me, either.</p>
<p>Some parents rely too much on the concept of the attentive RA as a failsafe. Realize that RAs are students themselves, with lives and classes, and they are not chaperones or trained therapists. College students at any institution are generally expected to be able to function as self-regulating, self-responsible adults. If you think that there is a high likelihood that your child cannot do this, for whatever reason, then going away to residential college is probably not a good idea.</p>
<p>I think it would be wise to approach arrival at any college with a plan. Talk with your child ahead of time about the stresses of adapting to college. Explain what are typical reactions to stress and what are red flags that extra help is needed.</p>
<p>If it seems more than likely that a particular student might need professional help at some point, line that up ahead of time. Make sure you student knows where the pharmacy is if he needs refills on meds. Check in with him every few months about how he is feeling.</p>
<p>The quiet plague. My son shut down Fall senior year in high school and though it sounds strange but I am thilled it happened while at home. Six months later, he is doing great and better because of it. </p>
<p>Through the episode i also learned how common it is for kids to spin out. In general The colleges expect 30%-40% to have issues of some sort.</p>
<p>We are in the midst of picking colleges and this question looms large. </p>
<p>I suggest visiting colleges at other times than during admitted day events. Get a sense of the real place … Not just while on good bevavior. </p>
<p>What are the graduation rates? Scour the web for student reviews (take with a grain of salt).</p>
<p>Whereve DS goes, I will literally walk him through the process of getting help, asking for help, knowing the signs etc etc … Open the can of worms.</p>
<p>How can we get our kids to advocate for themselves and others</p>
<p>You don’t believe there are any factors related to a school that can be contributory to the student developing or not receiving adequate/timely treatment for problems that arise?</p>
<p>I know that some kids will develop mental illness and substance abuse at that age no matter where they are. But there are definitely sometimes environmental influences that contribute. My question, and maybe it’s unanswerable, is how to figure out in advance if there are factors that are likely to be unhealthy for a particular student before they enroll.</p>
<p>Daniel Pink wrote a book called Drive. He says motivation comes from three things- autonomy, mastery, purpose. </p>
<p>I woud take the complete ecosystem at a school put in through these filters. Is one particular school going to help or hurt my childs motivation? Can my child understand himself/herself enough to know that you might hit rough spots and what to do?</p>
<p>For my son, he voted against UCBerkeley because no one greated each other as they passed on the walkway. It was that simple. Are people happy? Does it have a happy feeling? I know it sounds dense but at sone point you must trust your instincts. If it is a happy place than many rough spots can be weathered.</p>
<p>The best you can probably do is judge by the overall nature of the school whether you think it would be a poor fit for your student’s particular vulnerabilities. For example, a child prone to anxiety might not want to be at a high-pressure school with a heavy workload and high expectations. These schools may be very supportive in some ways but not in others. If substance abuse issues are the problem, an isolated school where drinking plays a heavy role in social life is probably not as good a choice as, say, an urban school with plenty of social opportunities that don’t revolve around alcohol.</p>
<p>As an example, RPI told us they have an “early warning system” where if you miss class for a week, your prof is supposed to inform someone who will check in with you. I guess that means they are supposed to take attendance even in huge lecture classes – maybe they do it electronically using those clicker devices? Or maybe this just includes smaller classes and your smaller recitation sections for larger classes; I don’t know the details.</p>
<p>I would guess that a school with fewer kids per RA would be more likely to have an RA notice odd or dangerous behavior. And schools with smaller classes would be more likely to have an instructor who would notice and be concerned about a major change in a student’s attendance, participation or grades. </p>
<p>You call it “hovering” and for some who are just experimenting with the freedom of being away from home, it may be unwelcome. But for someone truly falling into a deep depression or having other serious problems, it can be life-saving. So I guess it comes down to finding the right balance for each kid.</p>