Help finding a Music Gradute Program for a Student with Weaker Qualifications

College Majors Music Major
1

<p>Hello all,</p>

<p>I am writing on behalf of my friend who is applying to music graduate school now. I have already gone through the process of successfully applying to medical school so I am good at organizing application processes and my friend has an incredibly packed summer so I decided to help her out. </p>

<p>I think it would be important to detail what exactly my friend is interested in and what her academic situation is. She has decided that she would rather pursue the academic side of music rather than the performance side. Thus she is interested in music theory, music education, or musicology rather than performance. She has a B.A. in music from University of Maryland. However, her grades are not her strongest point. She has about a 2.6 GPA although many of her poorer marks are in classes unrelated to music. She also had to retake Music Theory 1 twice, which will show up on the transcript. She does have a lot of experience playing the piano though and has both extra-curricular and academic recitals/playing opportunities, but she is not interested in studying performance music. I realize that academically speaking she is in the lower percentile of applicants applying to music graduate programs, but like any other discipline there are graduate schools at all levels, so I am sure there are some appropriate for her grades that would be a good match for her. The problem is I don't know how to tell which schools are in her range and which are not.</p>

<p>My initial plan was to research music graduate programs, find ones whose admission criteria match her grades, and then create an excel spreadsheet/ms word chart for my friend that contained information on each each graduate program regarding admission criteria, average grades of admitted applicants, statistics about in-state/out-of-state acceptance, admission application requirements such as number of essays required, and application due dates.While applying to medical school I accomplished this task for myself using books and websites that gave this information. Medical school application sites also had a useful tool where you could enter your GPA and MCAT score and it would list every school and give the % chance you had of getting in, which enabled you to make a list of reach schools, schools in your range (50-60% chance of getting in), and safety schools. </p>

<p>The problem I have run into now is there seems to be no resource for music graduate programs that allows one to see average grades of admitted applicants. Thus through Petersons.com I can see there are hundreds of music graduate programs but I have no idea which ones my friend actually has a chance of getting into. There is plenty of information on the Top Ranked ones such as Juliard, but I don't think that would be a good match for her given her academic scores. </p>

<p>Thus I turn to all of you for help. Does anyone know how I can find the information I seek so I can go on to make a list of safety, average schools, and reach schools for her?</p>

<p>I really appreciate the help. Thanks very much</p>

2

<p>Before thinking about admission requirements to graduate programs in music, I think it is important for your friend to first determine what kind of graduate study she wants to pursue and what her career goals are. Music education stands out as being different than musicology or music theory, since the outcome of the music education degree would most likely be teaching in elementary, middle school or high school, and perhaps eventually being a band, orchestra or choir director. I don’t know a lot about graduate study in musicology or music theory, but I would assume that many students who pursue such degrees plan/hope to have a career in academia as a music professor/researcher or writer. In the case of music education, is your friend highly interested/committed to a career teaching music to school aged children? With regard to musicology/music theory, I think it would be important for the potential graduate student not only have the required grades and standardized test scores, but also have a strong interest, hopefully a passion, for one of these subjects that would justify years of specialized study and the kind of career that would follow graduate school. Maybe she has that and it is just not evident because you are writing this instead of her. </p>

<p>One more thing, I think it is nice that you are trying to help your friend, but I think the person who is considering graduate study should be more personally involved in researching these programs and also making the list of of schools to which one will apply. I know that for medical school, it is so extremely competitive, that many people are grateful to get accepted to one, and may not have the luxury of considering things like the research interests of the professors at a particular medical school. For graduate study in academic areas of music, it is really important to choose a program in which there is at least one professor whose academic/research interests are compatible with those of the student. Even though it is generous of you to want to help your friend, I think she should be more involved in this whole process. But the first step would be for her to decide which of these fields you mentioned - music education, music theory or musicology - that she wants to pursue.</p>

3

<p>Rigaudon,</p>

<p>I understand where you are coming from, but rest assured she is going to do a ton of research herself. She just is incredibly busy right now with moving + doing summer work/research in music to help build her resume.</p>

<p>All I want to do is get her a list of schools she is capable of getting into and their admission information. She will then look into all of them in far more detail including specific professors, etc…</p>

4

<p>Your friend should consider instate public universities from her home state…but NOT the flagship university where grad school acceptance might be more challenging with those grades. Where we are, there are some smaller public universities. Perhaps she could take some courses (most schools allow a certain number of credits as a non-matriculated student) in music whatever at the potential grad school university to “prove herself”. </p>

<p>In any event…she should have a serious discussion with someone in music admissions at the college(s) to which she is considering applying. In our experience, they will be very honest about academic credentials/impact on admissions. In audition based programs, this can be less important…but not discounted altogether. Some schools also require the GRE for grad school…has she looked into whether this is needed and if so, has she taken the test?</p>

5

<p>Thumper1,</p>

<p>She is signed up to take the GRE in the fall. </p>

<p>I agree with that you said about the type of school she should apply to. Unfortunately there happen to not be that many schools in Maryland. What would be the next best place to apply after small in-state public schools? Small public schools from other states? </p>

<p>Do you know of a place where I could find a list of music programs that are not so selective? Right now I’m just trying to find schools that she would actually have a chance of getting into</p>

6

<p>Graduates schools do not accept applicants with GPA’s below a 3.0, no matter the talent, the scores, the desire, and it does not matter that the lower grades are in non-music courses…every degree student must take non-music courses in order to graduate. Regardless of the GPA, student who has to repeat Music Theory I twice is not going to be considered by any graduate program in Music Theory or Musicology, nor is any Graduate School of Education going to accept a student with a 2.6 undergraduate GPA. She needs to find a different goal and plan for her professional life.</p>

7

<p>I think that she really needs to figure out what she wants to do, because it sounds like her background in music is not that strong. What concerns me, more then her overall GPA, is the fact that she did poorly in music theory, which indicates either that when she took it it overwhelmed her or she didn’t take it seriously…and music theory is the heart of any academic music track, whether in music theory or musicology it is something you have to master, there is no way around it. I would be concerned, as an admissions director, looking at someone who had a hard time with music theory wanting to go into this as a profession. </p>

<p>I disagree with Lorelei in one thing, having a GPA less then 3.0 doesn’t keep you out of all graduate programs (and I am going to be careful, my experience is weighed heavily with grad degrees in business and technology and the like, not directly with music), there are a lot of grad schools out there. At competitive schools, I would say that is all but true (unless someone can prove there were extenuating factors to why they didn’t do so well, like an undiscovered handicap like dyslexia or some such), that would be a major hindrance, but based on experience with other grad programs, it depends on the school and the person. That said, I also would wonder about going into musicology knowing that the school she might get into is not a top program, and here is why. From what I know of the musicology world, where people with Phd’s from top academic programs like Yale and such (not to mention from places like Juilliard and its ilk) have trouble finding academic positions, I kind of wonder if getting a grad degree from a lower tier school is the way to go, simply because what would she do with it? She might get through the program, but she has to be realistic that when competing against people from the ’ big’, rigorous schools, she would be lost in the incredible competition there is for those kinds of positions. </p>

<p>I agree with Lorelei, though, thst based on your friend’s background that it isn’t going to be easy and she may want to think through going ahead with musicology or another academic track, she needs really to think why she wants to do that, because she frankly is starting with a major handicap given her background, and unless she had a 4.0 in music classes and did really badly in other things, I suspect her grades in music weren’t stellar, just by basic math. I hope this isn’t a case where she likes or even loves music and sees going the musicology/academic track as a way to stay in music that is ‘easier’ then performance, because frankly that is a mistake IME, a big one, that isn’t easy either, and if anything given how academia is these days, might even be rougher then what musicians face after school.</p>

<p>I think you would be doing her a favor to be realistic about the situation, to really ask herself why she wants to do this. And my heart is with her, for a lot of reasons I was not a great college student, didn’t have super grades, but later on went to a good grad school and have had a successful career even though I wasn’t an academic superstar…but trying to get into such a rough profession, where even the stellar students from the top grad schools have problems is difficult, that is the reality. I think she needs to look into what it means to study music, and I think she also should be trying to take some classes in the field to see if she really wants to do it, those courses are not easy (I know a lot of gifted musicians who crashed and burned in music theory or musicology courses).</p>

<p>If she does decide she wants to go that route, even after all that, then she is going to need to demonstrate that her UG career was a fluke to be able to ‘move up the ladder’. One possibility would be to get into a program that would accept her, and get a master’s degree showing strong academics and dedication to music, then trying to get into a better one for a phd. Can’t say that is going to be easy, or even doable, just a thought off the top of my head.</p>

8

<p>[GPA</a> and Graduate School Admission - Grade Point Average](<a href=“http://gradschool.about.com/od/admissionsadvice/a/gpa.htm]GPA”>Grade Point Average (GPA) and Graduate School Admission)</p>

9

<p>You’ve gotten some objective advice from those who have posted before me, and I’m not going to disagree with any of it. I’ve been mulling my response since I first read your post this morning. While I agree that a 2.6 is not the most competitive of GPA’s, it might not be a door closer as lorelei suggests. I tend to be more of the mind of muscprnt and thumper, where there may well be a place for her.</p>

<p>The rhetorical question of “what school?” mirrors you own reason for coming here; a corollary to finding one begs the question what will do for her? </p>

<p>A couple of thoughts and rambles:</p>

<p>Theory I has been repeated countless times; many find the concepts difficult. It seems an “AHAH” moment crystalizes concepts, and students will progress (and many excel) in the subsequent advanced theory and analysis undergrad coursework. That in and of itself is not a badge of shame. </p>

<p>No need to respond with answers here, but I pose the following for both of you to reflect on and answer honestly. Is the grade deficiency due to cognitive issues, a learning disability (undiagnosed or otherwise), a life changing experience (death, health issues, financial), or immature/addictive behaviors? Any one or combination of these have historically been causes of less than stellar academic performance.</p>

<p>You mentioned her degree as being a BA. The typical BA in music has a range of 25-35% of credit concentration in music specific coursework, the balance in general and liberal arts/humanities requirements. For your reference, in a BM program, the percentages are reversed. Most programs require a minimum of 3.0 in the major to confer the degree. </p>

<p>Assume:
a 3.0 gpa in 36 music core credits, yielding 108 “points”
a 2.4 gpa in 84 credits other requirements yielding 202 “points”</p>

<p>for a gpa of 2.58, “close” to the 2.6 cited. Not a stellar record. Even at a 4.0 in the<br>
major coursework, the other load gpa would drop to a 2.0. </p>

<p>Hypothetical? Yes, but also illustrative. The first indicates a minimal mastery of the material, with an “average” overall graded performance. The second scenario shows a mastery of the major, but a “marginal” overall academic performance. Coming from a background of highly competitive med school admissions, how would you receive this as an admissions officer with a stack of “more qualified” applicants?</p>

<p>There may be a program out there for her. Perhaps some real world experience, in a music field, if she can secure employment, or an internship and put a couple of years of experience and some quality references on an app. She should have been able to develop at least one or two mentors during undergrad, who may help suggest programs. Perhaps she was asked tough questions, or advised to change majors and could not come to grips with it. Investigate the music ed option, but only if she WANTS to teach, and can handle the academics of the methodology, psychology and cognitive ed theory coursework. </p>

<p>I understand your concern, and your desire to help. Make sure that both of you are approaching this realistically. Good luck to both of you.</p>

10

<p>Let me start off by saying thank you for all of the insightful advice. Your responses are all fair, reasonable, and helpful. I will now address some of your major concerns before shifting the focus back to my original question:</p>

<p>I will first address the grade issue. Music was actually her second major, added late in her college career after almost fully completing an economics degree (She is graduating with a B.A. in Economics and Music and 2 minors- French and Classics). She was also juggling around 4 minors through her college career and ended up dropping 2 of them. She was always taking music classes, but only took it on as an official major after she realized she did not want to pursue economics. She has nearly double or triple the amount of necessary credits that a normal graduating student does because of this, and many of her lowest grades are from Economics or from the 2 minors she dropped. With the exception of music theory she does relatively well in her music classes. </p>

<p>Let me next address if she has truly considered the challenge that lies ahead of her if she wants to do music professionally. She has been told by several people that she is at a major disadvantage because of her grades and her performance in music theory. Her advisers at school have sat down with her upon her failure of music theory and given her serious talks about the subject. After these events and several times throughout college she sat down and did some real soul searching. Given all this, in the end, she still decided that music is really what she wants to do. She is fully aware of the handicapped position she has put herself in, but she is ready to work hard to make up for it. If you fail a class as important to your major as music theory at UMD, you must convince a counsel of professors to allow you to stay in the major and re-take and she managed to do that twice. I really believe that at this point she is fully aware of the difficulties that lie ahead of her and that she really does want to pursue music knowing how hard it is going to be. Even though like many of you I myself question whether music is the right path for her given her past record, she has made it clear to me that she has given it sufficient thought and it is what she wants to do, and thus I would like to help her in anyway that I can. </p>

<p>I hope that is sufficient enough to answer all of the concerns about whether or not she has seriously thought about whether she wants to do music and we can lay that topic of discussion to rest. She has convinced me that music is truly what she wants to pursue, despite the difficulties that await her, and as her friend I would like to help. Therefore I would like to return to the original question I posed:</p>

<p>Keeping in mind her low GPA, can anyone recommended or give me advice on where to find information on graduate programs that she actually has a chance of getting into? I am basically looking for the least selective music graduate programs around. For some reason I am having a lot of trouble locating lower-tier music graduate programs, as most of the information available seems to only concern the higher quality/more selective programs. </p>

<p>If anyone just knows the name of some schools/programs that are in her range of the top of their head that would be great, but direction to a source of information where I can look up such places myself would be the best. Even in you are of the same mind of lorelei2702, who has a completely reasonable viewpoint given her academic history, I would be happy to take advice on what schools you think someone with a 3.0 GPA (The minimum) should be applying to. As her friend all I want to do is help her out by finding schools she may actually have a chance at. </p>

<p>Thank you very much for the replies so far and I hope all of you who have posted previously and have been a great help, will now post again in response to this re-focused reply.</p>

11

<p>The background is useful, but the focus now hinges on the discipline. Music is a broad spectrum, and the fields of music education, music theory, music history require different skill sets and talents. They are not always found in the same institution. Keep in mind that there is an audition based component, and/or a portfolio submission that will be a requirement to virtually any program.</p>

<p>I’ll put financial issues on the table as well. Since she has already amassed credits beyond the norm, one can assume additional undergrad time was involved. That equals costs. Dependent on current debt level, I would counsel against taking on substantial additional debt to fund grad school. Do not discount this, particularly in a music field. Take the time to read this, and direct her to it. <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/460187-how-many-music-voice-performance-majors-find-jobs.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/460187-how-many-music-voice-performance-majors-find-jobs.html&lt;/a&gt;
It’s a highly competitive field. Quite simply, her grades do put her in the best position to receive any financial institutional backing at the graduate level. </p>

<p>I don’t think “the list” or source you’re looking for exists, and if it did, I would question the validity and accuracy. It’s too discipline specific for generalities, and in performance and composition pursuits, the instructor/student relationship is the prime factor rather than the prestige factor or the institutional name carved on the stone edifice. Some of that appears less important in the academic disciplines of history, theory, musicology. </p>

<p>Some names are mentioned here (and some may or may not work), as well as some career type directions as food for thought.
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/463946-any-grad-schools-older-students.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/463946-any-grad-schools-older-students.html&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/586081-need-music-related-grad-school-career-suggestions.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/586081-need-music-related-grad-school-career-suggestions.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Solid music grades may gain her entry into a number of mid/lower tier state/public/private programs for masters work at the MM or MA; the grade distribution across the balance of her ug coursework may be the stumbling block, and GRE results may make or break her chances. She will have to sell herself. I’m hesitant to name schools unless a discipline is specified, as it’s too broad a spectrum to try a shotgun approach.</p>

12

<p>I suggest that she look at smaller state universities. Many have music programs with lower requirements. For example this school offers both education and technology among others (bold is mine):</p>

<p>Georgia Southern:
[Georgia</a> Southern University Department of Music](<a href=“http://class.georgiasouthern.edu/music/graduatestudies/index.php]Georgia”>http://class.georgiasouthern.edu/music/graduatestudies/index.php)</p>

<p>

</p>

13

<p>

</p>

<p>should read “Quite simply, her grades do NOT put her in the best position to receive any financial institutional backing at the graduate level.”</p>

14

<p>I agree with Binx and I think I posted that earlier. Look at the smaller public university programs in your state…NOT the larger programs or ones with the high profile music programs. Those will be more competitive. Look at some smaller state universities. </p>

<p>

</p>

15

<p>One thought I will add to the other thoughtful responses. Your friend may want to apply to a number of programs, some at the less competitive level and maybe some of the bigger, more competitive ones as well. From everything I know about admissions, it is not science, it is a dark art, and there can be surprises. For the higher level programs (and I am talking maybe the lower end of the mid tier schools) your friend might be able to make an attempt to get in by finding ways on essays and interviews to convey why her GPA is less then stellar, especially if her music grades were decent (I don’t know what decent means, but let’s assume B’s and A’s). She might take the approach with them that the reason she didn’t do well was because she was studying things that didn’t interest her, that she studied economics because, as a possible example of what routinely happens, a parent influenced her to go that route (purely hypothetical example), and that as shown by her decent grades in music she found what she wanted to do. I am pretty sure that in the top tier/competitive schools like the Eastmans, NEC’s, Juilliard’s, Yales, etc that probably wouldn’t work well (on the other hand, I know of a direct example where someone who didn’t have a college degree talked himself into Yale Law School, head of a company I worked for), but it may work in less competitive but still decent programs who might be looking at other factors other then grades (even at ivies, they have been known to turn away the uber achiever with a 4.0, with all the right ‘extras’, for someone with an interesting story to tell, been written up a number of times). It isn’t going to be easy, but I suppose my point is that if you reach higher as well as at the lower tier, the lower tier will probably bear some fruit but that she may in fact find she can get into a better program.</p>

16

<p>

Yup, you shore did! Sorry, didn’t read all posts thoroughly. (Or rather, I did a couple days ago but geesh - I’m old - you don’t expect me to remember, do you?)</p>

17

<p>There actually are a few smaller public schools in the Maryland/MidAtlantic area that might work. It really depends on her instrument/focus. One way to get into one of these programs might be to contact the teacher of the discipline. I would agree that musicology would likely not be the best fit as it is a very academic field, and it might be harder to find a professor to encourage admission in a program.</p>

18

<p>For example, I googled:
maryland public colleges, graduate music programs</p>

<p>this is one site I found:
[Public</a> College Grad Schools with Music Programs](<a href=“http://www.graduateprogramsinmusic.com/Public-College-Grad-Schools.cfm]Public”>http://www.graduateprogramsinmusic.com/Public-College-Grad-Schools.cfm)</p>

<p>I would look first at the schools I’d not heard of…start there…</p>

19

<p>How about Plymouth State University in New Hampshire? I have no idea about their admittance requirements but they do have a lovely performing arts center and the town is charming. Worth checking.</p>

20

<p>[M.Ed</a>. in Music Education](<a href=“http://www.plymouth.edu/graduate/music/index.html]M.Ed”>http://www.plymouth.edu/graduate/music/index.html)</p>

<p>[Admissions</a> Requirements](<a href=“http://www.plymouth.edu/graduate/admissions/index.html]Admissions”>http://www.plymouth.edu/graduate/admissions/index.html)</p>

<p>I do not know if it pertains to M.Ed candidate admissions, but the undergraduate majors must have a 2.5 GPA in order to student teach. If Music Education is the route your frend would like to pursue it is worth contacting the program coordinator. </p>

<p>I used to teach at Plymouth State in the Theatre area in the Department of Music, Theatre & Dance, and grew up in Plymouth. Let me know if you have general questions about Plymouth State, or the town.</p>