Help for kid with very good grades but low test scores and few EC's.

I think that your daughter will be fine also. Quite a few of the smaller schools (LACs in the US) are test-optional. I would expect that she can get into some pretty good ones without ECs. Where we live (Massachusetts) the state flagship (Amherst) requires the SAT or ACT, but the state #2 (Lowell) does not.

My younger daughter just got accepted to the four top-ranked small primarily undergraduate universities in Eastern Canada (the Canadian equivalent of LACs). All are test-optional except for one that doesn’t consider SAT/ACT at all, and none of them care about ECs. They are great schools, reasonably priced for an American (even better for students with dual citizenship), and accept kids based on grades and references – two areas where it sounds like your daughter is strong. However, I doubt she needs to go there (unless she wants to) since I think she will get into comparable schools in the US and nearer to home.

“Am I worrying over nothing?”

University is worrisome, and the admissions process in the US is stressful. However, probably yes.

“she’s in the top 2.8% of her class, will that compensate for low test scores and few EC’s?”

For many very good schools, yes. I would say that being near the top of her class really should be the main thing for admissions, and there will be many places where it will be all that she needs.

When she’s 16, she could get a job rather than volunteer hours at the nursing home or joining a club at school. That’s a good EC.

My daughter is also a very slow reader and doesn’t read for pleasure. She likes books on tape. They drive me crazy, but she like to read along with the tapes or CDs and she remembers everything even if it has taken her two weeks to read a novel. Also, short, non-fiction like magazines. Mine would also read the teen magazines about pop singers, People, anything about Kim Kardashian. I was happy she was reading. She also uses Khan academy or things like Cliff notes, online reviews, to help her understand material.

@LeastComplicated, your daughter sounds like my daughter’s twin.

She has high grades, a good class rank(but nothing near that of your daughter), and limited ECs.

She’s also a slow reader and has a tough time with standardized tests.

She’s just finishing her junior year now. When she was finishing her freshman year, I posted my first thread here, asking the exact same questions you’re asking.

We still don’t know how it will turn out, but I can tell you how my daughter has progressed.

ECs:
I could never get her to put any serious time into any ECs outside of her one sport, which she does year round, and which takes up a lot of time. I agree with the others about the baking. I would definitely encourage that. I don’t know yet how my daughter’s lack of ECs will affect her, but she’s not really shooting for any of the super selective privates, so I think she’ll be OK. Where we are, ECs don’t matter so much for the publics, but your state might be different.

SAT:
I wouldn’t worry at all. My daughter never took the 10th grade PSAT, but her 11th grade score was definitely low relative to her GPA. Her first SAT is still low compared to her GPA. For any competitive school that I check in Naviance, she has the lowest SAT of any of the kids with her GPA, but she’s been steadily improving. On her practice tests, she’s scoring around 70 - 80 points higher on each section than she did on the PSAT in 11th grade. And she hasn’t put much time in at all. I take her to a tutor, but she’s been doing the bare minimum in between sessions.

Her Reading score hasn’t moved a ton, but her Writing and Math have improved quite a bit. You might know this already, but the Writing section is very easy to improve upon. So even if she’s a slow reader and she can’t get her Reading score to budge, she can use the Writing section to bring that half of the score up. Even as a slow reader, my daughter has improved her Reading score a bit by learning strategies from the tutor.

Your daughter sounds like a serious worker. With a good tutor, I’m sure she can get her score up into the 1300’s or higher. That should be good enough to get into plenty of great schools with her grades and rank. And like others have said, she can target the test-optional schools as well. There’s a very wide range of schools that are test-optional. I was surprised by that.

I’m not sure if anyone mentioned this yet, and you may already know this, but I think at least some of the test-optional schools require scores if you’re looking for merit aid.

If you have any questions, feel free to PM me.

@compmom Thanks for that! :wink: Just trying not to wind up being mentioned in the “most annoying thread” thread :wink:
Yes, I have considered learning disabilities, but she is doing so well academically that I just haven’t bitten that bullet yet. Same with D1 - she had lead poisoning when we got her and was and is extremely hyperactive, but we’ve never treated her because she has been able to excel academically (she was a 95 percentiler on her tests) We don’t know anything about D2’s birth - we just know that she was with her birth family for possibly just a few hours, then at an orphanage, then with two foster families each for about a month, then with us - for 15 years now.

And as for the homework - she’s not in her room alone, she’s got a workstation in the kitchen area where she likes to work, and it’s pretty quiet because our other daughter is the one that cocoons in her room. And honestly, we allow her to keep her phone with her while she’s doing her homework so I’m sure she’s texting friends, etc now and then so that adds to the time it takes her to finish. I’ve tried taking it away from her to see if she could get done quicker, but we always have to give it back a few times each night so she can look up something on a phone app, or ask somebody something (and yeah, she has legit reasons, lol - I grilled her to make sure, and they always seems reasonable). So I’ve just given up and let her have it. And she really doesn’t complain at all about sitting there all night except during her sport season, that’s when she gets stressed. This fall, we actually had to get her schedule switched from AP World History to Honors World History (well into the second quarter) because that class was, without a doubt, taking way too much time for her to keep up with and still participate in her sport. She had to read about 30 pages/night of a textbook with a 6 point font, and then paraphrase everything she read into a notebook - it was ridiculous. She was doing well in the class (a B) but at the cost of not going to bed until 1:30am. She protested, whined and complained, but I insisted and after a week in her new class, she was very glad she made the switch and a lot of stress was relieved. She signed up to take two AP classes next year, but she questioned the teachers about the rigor of the course and they assured her that they felt she could handle them - they are in subjects that she is strong in that don’t require a lot of reading and writing. So we shall see how it goes. The rest of her classes besides Honors English are regular level classes, so hopefully there will be a good balance.

And finally, yes, I know she had to be doing a lot of reading, because she always knows what’s going on with current events. Although I think her sources are Buzzfeed and the like - she’s not reading the Washington Post, that’s for sure. We had a discussion just today about the bombing in England and I mentioned Brexit, and she asked “What that?”, so I started to explain, and she said, “Oh, I knew about them withdrawing from the EU, I just didn’t know it was called Brexit”.

Also thank you for the link. I will definitely check it out! And again for your kind and helpful words, Thank you!

Really everyone - I’m overwhelmed. Thanks so much for your encouragement and input. It is very much appreciated. And it’s good to know she isn’t the only one in the same situation.

I’ll leave for the night with one more anecdote that illustrates her need to bone up on her vocab. My D1 went to prom a couple of weeks ago and D2 told her to be careful and not mess up her dress because she might want it next year. D1 yelled at her, “You’re way skinnier than me, it wouldn’t fit you anyway!” So D2 indignantly proclaims: “Haven’t you heard of altercations?!”. I laughed and told her I was sure D1 was familiar with “altercations”. D2 caught on, and yelled “Yeah, I might have an altercation with you over alterations!” I laughed and laughed.

I honestly don’t think that a summer of enforced reading will affect the vocabulary, but might add pressure. I could be wrong. But generally she can write well enough to do well in school, and if she doesn’t like to read books, I think that’s okay. Maybe there is a particular type of book she would really LIKE to read, maybe not- helping her find something she enjoys might work, but for the summer I hope it can stay fun!

The fact that your daughters do well in school does not mean they don’t have learning challenges of some sort. For the daughter you are posting about, the cost of her doing well seems high. It seems (and this is an online forum so you are the one who knows) that too much time is being spent to earn those good grades. I would look into the reasons behind her reading issues, slow processing, that kind of thing, especially with her background. (For your other daughter, there is no real test for ADHD. It can be diagnosed in an MD office with a questionnaire, frankly, and that questionnaire is available online.)

The other thing about lots of homework is that it prevents her from doing other things. If you are concerned about college, those other things can have a big effect on her chances. If you are concerned, as I know you are, about her well-being, I think there is an effect-t not being able to volunteer, work, or participate in a variety of activities, maybe even socialize as much as she would like. Granted, she does a sport, but still, her life seems a little limited with all those hours of homework- that may or may not be reasonable for the actual workload given.

Many students have learning disabilities, ADHD, slow processing, whatever…and do well. It’s called “compensation.” Schools may deny accommodations or help, because they are “doing well.” But at the college level this may become more of an issue. I think the best preparation for college may be to just make sure there is nothing to address, or address whatever you can.

Why does she want to take the hardest classes? Is there a big gap between the AP kids and regular kids, one she is not comfortable with? Is she ambitious? Is she pleasing you? I think it’s admirable don’t get me wrong, and your support is wonderful. But it does sound like a recipe for stress at times :slight_smile:

Test optional/deemphasizing schools on that list include, for example, under B’s, Brandeis, Bates, Bryn Mawr, Bennington, Bowdoin…stellar schools. I like Goucher a lot for a kid like yours…Colleges that Change Lives website really is a good resource.

Agree with @twoinanddone about a job being a good EC. Maybe something related to her sport? Two of my D’s tennis-playing friends had jobs monitoring and sweeping the courts. My S played baseball and umpired for the Local Little League. Not a heavy lift, maybe a game one night a week and 3 or 4 on the weekends. Some of his soccer friends referee. In our area, these jobs are available to ages 14 and up (of course the older kids do the higher level teams and so get paid more).

I may have missed this, but is she or has she taken enough foreign language? Most schools require 2 minimum, and prefer 3 or 4. This may be a bigger issue for you that the test scores.

Seven hours of homework EVERY day? That is a LOT of homework time, in my opinion.

If she doesn’t have a study hall during her school day, you might want to consider this.

If shenhas a sport practice after school…she probably doesn’t get home before 4. Are you saying she is up until 11 every night doing homework? Whew! Does she eat dinner while doing homework?

Regardless…I think there are a LOT of colleges that will be suitable for this young person.

Unless your D did extensive prep for the 10th grade PSAT, it seems very odd to me that so many people are pushing you towards test-optional schools.

Have your D look carefully at her detailed PSAT results, find out what her weakness was, and work on that. I have an S19 who rarely reads for pleasure (maybe two books per year). His lower PSAT section score was definitely the reading/writing with most questions missed in one particular reading section. He just needs to learn what the test is looking for when two answers are very similar - it’s not as if he doesn’t understand the English language at all and is doomed. It’s not going to be difficult to figure out if he just looks at some sample passages.

Be glad your kid has the motivation to work hard for straight As! (I have one of those kids who doesn’t study, puts minimal effort into HW (but always does it), and seems to always have an 88 to 93 grade in everything when he could have straight As with just a little effort). He only does music-related ECs, but I don’t waste my energy worrying it. Not all teens are going to be overflowing with passion for a million and one things. I’m glad he at least found one thing that he really likes at 15.

“Unless your D did extensive prep for the 10th grade PSAT, it seems very odd to me that so many people are pushing you towards test-optional schools.”

^^This! My two Ds are both in college now. First one was a straight A student since 7th grade. High PSAT scores (missed NMF by one point) led to high SAT and ACT scores. Second D was more of a B student 7-9th grade. Her grades began to improve in 10th grade and she became a straight A student 10-12th grade. Her 10th grade PSAT was about the same as your daughter’s (no prep) and increased some but not much in 11th grade. She took ACT in march of junior year and scored a 27. As she began to be motivated about college choices and what she might like to do in the future she was also motivated to do some test prep and she brought that ACT up to a 32 and scored even higher on the SAT. This same kid was never much of a reader but became one, starting in junior year of high school. She found what interested her in AP english of all places!

The point—kids develop differently through high school just like they did as toddlers when all the parents were comparing who walked or talked at what age.

Your daughter sounds like a normal teenager who also has a strong work ethic! A couple of things that popped into my head as far as volunteering/EC-you said she loves to cook. How about baking cookies/muffins and taking them to a shelter or senior center? As far as the celebrity interest, could she start a fan club/web page? While not technically an EC, it would require both organizational and communication skills.

OK, from the bottom up. @thumper1 Yes, 5-7 hours of homework every day, but like I said she has her phone with her at all times, so who knows how much she is texting while doing work. She doesn’t complain about how much she has so I think she enjoys doing work and interacting with her friends on an off through the evening - but yes, she is sitting at her work station pretty much all night. At her age, the only thing she would rather be doing is texting her friends, so, if since she’s not complaining (and she would be if she wasn’t happy believe me) then I generally don’t worry. Last year was stressful for her, but this year is much better. No study halls at her school. I asked about that when she was having a rough time in AP World history this year. Was told no. She moved to an Honors class and that solved the problem. She comes home from school and cooks herself something to eat as soon as she walks in the door - she’s 95 lbs and needs constant fuel. Then she’ll graze throughout the evening. Don’t judge, but we don’t have a lot of sit down dinners. She gets home at 2:30 and needs to eat right away. My other daughter goes to another school and gets home at 4:00 and she wants something to eat right away too. So, they are on different schedules, especially during sports seasons, and pretty much prepare dinner for themselves - and they like it that way because they get to eat what they like. But yes, she has 3 hours less time in the pm during her sports season.

@mjrube94 Yes, she has taken three years of Spanish thank goodness! (one year counted from MS).

@LuckyCharms913 Yes, actually she and her sister are qualified soccer referees (she doesn’t play soccer but is a sports fan and knows all the stats and rules for all major sports) , but have never put that to use. Like I have mentioned, for the past four years, they’ve been doing sports pretty much full time even during the summer, so jobs have been difficult. But she chose not to do AAU sports in the summer this year, so that might be a possibility. I’ll have her check with her coach to see if he has any ideas for doing sports oriented volunteering.

@compmom Yes, we actually have three adopted children, one much older, and it is very common for a large percentage of those who came from difficult background to have learning problems (and spending 9 months in an orphanage is definitely a difficult background - you’d be surprised how many of their teachers don’t understand the implications of their early lives). At the beginning of each year, I write a note to all their new teachers and explain their circumstances and their issues. That helps somewhat especially with D2 - her teachers have been very understanding when I explain how long it takes for her to get her work done - they all have offered to give her extra time if she needs it - and she’s only needed to do that less than a handful of times. With D1, who goes to a private school, they haven’t been so understanding and she’s the one I’m certain has ADHD, a neurologist confirmed it, but I knew the first week we had her that she was hyperactive. We tried treating D2 last spring during her stressful junior year (the first time I really thought she needed it ) and she ended up in the ER at 2am after a horrible reaction to the very first dose of the med. So she will go untreated. Her college is very understanding about these types of issues so I have told her to be proactive if she starts experiencing any problems after she starts in the fall. I feel they will do their best to help her succeed. I will look into getting D1 tested this summer - because I have definitely had that thought in the back of my mind. She wants to take the hardest classes because she is competitive and her grades are a big source of her self esteem. I definitely do not push her - in fact, I’ve tried to get her to scale back, but she wants to be academically successful. And next year, she WILL have three regular level courses so hopefully that will give her a break - but yes, generally, there is a huge gap in the abilities in the regular classes vs the Honors/AP courses - and re the types of students in those classes so that’s another reason she wants to be in the higher level classes. She is shy and feels most comfortable with her close peers. Now about those schools you mentioned - Bates, Bowdoin, etc. I know she’s a good student, but I just really don’t think there’s a chance in he#$ that she would get admitted to any of those types of schools (Except a Goucher type school possibly). My older daughter with much better stats, EC’s etc, with a private school education (at a highly ranked school) was rejected by all the very selective colleges she applied to, so I’m not going to have D2 waste her time with anything less than a 40% or so admit rate. I don’t think those rigorous colleges would be a good fit for her anyway with her reading deficiencies. It would be way too stressful. But thank you for thinking that she was of that caliber! And I have the feeling that she is going to follow one or more of her friends to college, which will most likely be an in-state public. And finally, she seems pretty content and happy with her life. She has a lot of good friends - she and her sister don’t go hang out with their friends constantly like I did when I was young, which I think is kind of strange, but she is perfectly happy lounging on the couch in her free time (on the weekends) texting and snatchatting them all the while. She also gets together with them every two or three weeks or so, goes to football games and her bestie spends the night fairly often. So I don’t know what a normal teenaged life is like these days, but from what I see, it isn’t constantly hanging out with their peers. I think part of the explanation might be that we live in a area with very heavy and dangerous traffic and our older daughter didn’t get her driver’s license until she was 18 (and most of her friends still don’t have licenses and they are graduating next week!) D2 is a young one for her class and won’t turn 16 until July, but can’t get her license for a few months after that (you have to wait for 9 months after you get your permit here). So having to count on Mom and Dad to drive you around kind of restricted their social lives. Thank you so much for your thoughtful comments and assistance.

@Parentof2014grad I think you have a point. My daughter has always learned things at her own pace and I forgot about that until last night. She met milestones later than her sister, but she always met them eventually. Her first grade teacher was concerned because she wasn’t reading at grade level, and then in third grade, she caught up. It was in 7th grade that she really started to shine and has been making straight A’s since then. I held her sister back in Kindergarten (the hyper one who also had amblyopia) because her birthday was one day short of the cut off day anyway - very young. So she went thru school as the oldest in her class and did well. I often wish I would’ve done the same with D2 since she is still young for her class with a July Birthday. But she was calm and able to focus - and I’m a bad mother - she was also a terror, so I needed to get her into full day school for my sanity, so she has gone through school as one of the youngest in her class. Again, hindsight is 20/20, you do your best. I really feel that she will, like you said, mature at her own pace. And compared to my education and accomplishments - with her skills and knowledge, she now is so far ahead of where I was at her age and probably even when I was half-way through college (except for reading - I read 4 or 5 books a week, but that was back in the days before cable TV and Iphones). So yeah, I shouldn’t be worried at all about this child.

@skyii558 I really like those ideas! Thank you!

There’s not much your daughter is doing wrong. Sounds like a normal teenager to me. It is normal to not have interest in ECs schools offer. There might be a chance her school has grade inflation due to her low test scores. She still has time to raise them though.

@Bobbybob444555 Well it’s a typical public school in a state known for pretty good schools. One of her teammates got into Princeton (with no hook) last year (but she was in participating in a special program with a very rigorous curriculum of mostly AP courses beginning freshman year - but the courses are the same AP courses available to all students). So I’m not thinking it’s a matter of grade inflation, just that she works very hard for her grades. Also, if her abilities were really mediocre and there was a lot of grade inflation going on - she wouldn’t be ranked in the top 2.8% of a class of 420 - she’d be more in the middle of the pack, wouldn’t she?

My kid who is/was a reluctant reader never had the time or probably patience, for the kind of sustained test prep that might have made a difference in his scores. By spring of junior year, it became apparent it was not going to improve enough to expand his school options. We focused on finding good fits for him – someone who takes pride in doing well, loves ideas and debate, but has to work harder, and smarter, to achieve the same success as his high achieving high school peers. We found a great group of mostly midwest but also east coast LACs that fit beautifully, and where we knew he could get strong education. Those ranged from Bates, St. Lawrence, Conn Coll and Dickinson on the east coast to Denison, Kalamazoo, Knox, Earlham, Lawrence and Beloit in the midwest. St Lawrence and Dickinson required test scores for merit aid, none of the rest did (though Bates does not give merit aid, and Conn apparently has started to only this year).

I’m not suggesting that the OP’s daughter – who has shown the ability to work much harder than my son – would not succeed in bringing up test scores over the next 18 months. I am simply sharing that there are wonderful options out there for the “lopsided” kid who does very well in a rigorous course setting, including AP/IB testing, but for one reason or another, cannot “bring it” in the high stakes multiple choice testing environment.

You’ve gotten lots of great responses here…I’ll just echo that your D sounds normal and perfectly fine to me, and probably, with the amount of homework she has and how hard she works for her good grades, she needs the fandom stuff as a fun outlet. I say let her have it (but maybe set a rule of no phone at homework time).

I’ll also add that DS17 took the PSAT cold as a sophomore and did significantly worse than your D. He did a self study during the summer and greatly improved his junior year, and ended up with a SAT score that was in the top 25% percentile for his LAC of choice. He was never going to be NMSF level, but didn’t need to be: his ‘good but not great’ test scores combined with top grades and decent ECs were enough.

@wrldpossibility Thank you for that info. I think she would be OK with studying a bit this summer hopefully with the same results as your son… And I would never even consider the thought of taking away her fandom stuff, lol! That’s who she is, and we make fun of her for it, but we also love her for being such a nerd about it! She was really a very quiet and reserved little girl (except when she was throwing a tantrum) and we love to see her being enthusiastic and giddy about something. My husband even takes her to the guy’s concerts and sings with her in the car when they play his songs!

Oh goodness, I thought of this when I left home today and then you responded…I did NOT mean I thought she should apply to those super rigorous schools. It’s just that sometimes people reject that list as if it is second class or something, and continue with the pursuit of scores. It IS true that sometimes merit aid at test-optional schools depends on scores but otherwise, so many great schools, a wide range, that don’t require or emphasize standardized tests.

Hope you understand those few B’s I listed were just to show the caliber of school on the list, and weren’t direct suggestions. I think it’s great that your daughter is having such a normal teenage life without too much pressure. Congratulations on a great job.

For ADHD, some kids need to start at a much lower dose, and there are many options out there. My kid could not take meds for years due to another health condition but this past year she found a gentler one she could take and it makes a world of difference. But you need a good psychiatrist who is up on all the options I think.

Before college, an evaluation might be good for your second daughter. You might be able to get insurance to cover it considering the background. It is nice to have understanding people around you but you cannot rely on kindness and understanding unfortunately, and in college it would not be appropriate to benefit from favors or kindness either. It needs to be a matter of civil rights, at the foundation, even if no one acts like that is what is going on :slight_smile:

So evaluation and disabilities office might be helpful.

In the meantime, enjoy her high school years and good luck to your older daughter too.