Help Kids With College Papers?

Parents Forum
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<p>Sac: * Kid number one called at the end of her first quarter in college, in need of help with a paper. She'd stuck with a topic the writing prof told her was unworkable. The paper meant the difference between a B and an A. She had, in fact, found the approach was unworkable and the paper was due that afternoon. I'm a writer, and I've taught writing. Was I supposed to say: "no, self actualize" and hang up? *</p>

<p>My inclination would have been to say, "Hmm...this sounds really frustrating." Why don't you turn this draft of your paper in, but tell your prof that you know it would really benefit from another draft, and ask your professor if he'll give you some help with revisions and reworking it. </p>

<p>English professors are generally pretty understanding about first-quarter freshman needing help. If she had actually turned in a reasonably decent draft showing she'd made a genuine effort (a B paper would reflect that), I'm guessing he might well have given her the help and an extension that could have allowed to her to write a better paper.</p>

<p>And, if not, well, a B in a freshman first term course is not the end of the world. (I'm speaking as someone who struggled mightily to get a C in first semester freshman English and worked very hard to bring it up to an A in second semester. Of course, all this was decades ago before grade inflation.)</p>

<p>If the prof had been unhelpful in this situation, she might have ended up with a B, and then you might have gone over her paper with her afterwards. Even though it would have been too late to change her grade, it wouldn't have been too later to help her learn from the experience.</p>

<p>But I suppose all of this is easier for me to say just because I have the sort of cussedly independent kids who would never ask me for help writing their papers in the first place! </p>

<p>(Even before they started to take college courses, they just naturally preferred to write without my input. If they wanted somebody else's feedback, they had creative writing groups and friends to whom they could turn.)</p>

<p>And actually, I think my kids are naturally better writers than I am. </p>

<p>So I've never actually been faced with Sac's situation. </p>

<p>I do have to say that it does sound as though the discussion sac and her daughter had might have been one of those magical "teachable moments."</p>

<p>It does seem like some form of acknowledgement footnote in the paper would have been appropriate. (Along the lines of a footnote saying "I would like to thank sac for a helpful discussion that improved my exposition in this paper.")</p>

<p>But I think it is only quite recently that professors have begun to be explicit about requiring that students acknowledge informal discussions and as well as cite published sources in their papers.</p>

<p>Certainly, when I was a struggling freshman, if I had chosen to exchange papers with a roommate, I don't think I would have known I was supposed to cite that help. I have definitely seen recent websites that make clear that students that students should acknowledge that sort of thing.</p>

<p>Similarly, in the old days profs would encourage students to work together on problem sets and there was no requirement to acknowledge the people with whom you had worked. Increasingly now I'm seeing websites in which profs say: "Collaborate but write up your own work AND acknowledge the people with whom you discussed the problems."</p>

<p>All pretty sensible...but pretty new, I think.</p>

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<p>I went to a college in which almost all exams were take-home exams, and many of those were even "closed book" take-home exams. That was no doubt a special case even then, however; it was a college in which the "honor principle" really worked. Perhaps because of that experience, I tend to be very trusting and to accept almost any explanation a student may offer of the "the dog ate my homework" variety. Reading this thread, however, has opened my eyes to a reality that I hadn't imagined before.</p>

<p>Nobody should wonder why adcoms don't trust admissions essays as representing the applicant's own writing. Some professors I know have given up on the standard research paper assignment because plagiarism is so widespread and difficult to detect or control. Many others should apparently start wondering whether the work is the student's own even in the absence of plagiarism.</p>

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<p>How in the world did this jump to "plagiarism?"</p>

<p>Mackinaw, maybe you are just referring to what Bobby said, and even that, which <strong>appeared</strong> to be the actual re-writing of paragraphs, could have just been heavy-handed editing. Unless we saw the content, we can't call it "plagiarism."</p>

<p>But everyone else was referring to a) looking over a paper for errors that the writer missed, which believe me, EVERYONE in the business world and academic worlds does.</p>

<p>or b) Even what Sac described - brainstorming to get to a good thesis statement, then discussing how to develop a logical structure - is PRECISELY what I was TOLD to do at three DIFFERENT writing labs I have volunteered at, one at an Ivy. The writing lab in my CURRENT volunteer school (I don't work in it but I work with students who have been there) does the same thing, at least for some students.</p>

<p>If this is "plagiarism" - stealing someone else's ideas and passing them off as your own - we have to shut down a lot of writing labs at schools all over the country!</p>

<p>Of course, I am assuming that Sac did I as I was trained to do at writing labs - help draw out the student's ideas, not give my own.</p>

<p>I agree that Sac's level of help is beyond the typical "second proofreading" I was talking about in all my other posts, but it still doesn't rise to the level of plagiarism if it is what is done at a certain HYP school! They wouldn't allow it!</p>

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<p>Gee, I wish my S did share a paper or 2, whether for proofing or after the fact. When he was in HS, I recall teachers commenting to me about something he wrote, and I had no idea. I think it would be concrete way to stay in touch. Its obvious Garland reviews with an eye to grammar or minor suggestions, so her children don't feel she's redoing, just improving.</p>

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<p>This is not anything like plagiarism, and I don't know why citing would ever come up. No college I have been connected to expects you to cite your roommate, parent, tutor, or anyone else you discuss yuour ideas with. Citing is for when you actually use someone else's ideas or words. What SAc did is similar to what I do with my students at the college I work at--help them to clarify and find structure for their ideas. Brainstorming with someone, which I've done with my kids (again, this is what I do for a living), is perfectly acceptable. And to cite Nedad, we don't need to throw around value judgments of whose kid is more independent than whose, according to who they ask for help from.</p>

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<p>"Citing" is perhaps not technically the right word for what is appropriate when a student's work has substantially benefited from informal discussions with others (peers or whoever). In this day and age, however, professors are increasingly calling for "acknowledgement" in such cases.</p>

<p>Here's what Harvard's Expository Writing website has to say:</p>

<p>* Any time you write a paper of more than a few pages, you draw on many influences: both sources you cite and less immediate or formal sources such as the lessons of former teachers, conversations with friends, class discussions, books you read in the summer or for other classes. When you have benefitted substantially from information or ideas in sources like these that don't appear in your list of references, you should acknowledge their help in a footnote or endnote of acknowledgment. Doing so shows you to be both generous and intellectually self-aware. *</p>

<p>The website goes on to give a number of models of acknowledgement footnotes.
<a href="http://www.fas.harvard.edu/%7Eexpos/sources/chap2.html#2.1%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~expos/sources/chap2.html#2.1&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>(See section 2.4 "Acknowledging uncited courses.")</p>

<p>Of course, it is always a judgment call as to what constitutes feedback that "substantially benefits" a student's work. </p>

<p>But, again, I have to say that when I went to college decades ago, I was never taught that I should acknowledge informal discussions that benefitted my papers or problem sets.</p>

<p>Increasingly, however, I am seeing that professors are posting guidelines for assignments which require that they explicitly acknowledge the names of students with whom they have worked on/brainstormed/discussed problem sets or papers.</p>

<p>It seems like a good idea to me.</p>

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<p>"EVERYONE in the business world and academic worlds does>'</p>

<p>Voronwe, if you read my earlier posts on this thread you will see that I don't dispute this. But that point is beside the point. Much of the work in the business world and the academic world is "collaborative" in the sense either that more than one person puts their name or stamp on a product or that the product is a collective one created by a team.</p>

<p>But when a student is asked to prepare a paper or essay, the expectation is that while that student may consult others for advice, including having others read and react to drafts, it's that student's product that is turned in. The issue of plagiarism is a separable issue but not entirely so. The question is whether the student is fairly representing her (his) product as her own. The professor is judging not just the aesthetics and substance of the product but the performance of the student -- an individual, not a group. And so it's important that the professor know that the work is fundamentally that of the student and not of someone else.</p>

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<p>"Sac: Kid number one called at the end of her first quarter in college, in need of help with a paper. She'd stuck with a topic the writing prof told her was unworkable. The paper meant the difference between a B and an A. She had, in fact, found the approach was unworkable and the paper was due that afternoon. I'm a writer, and I've taught writing. Was I supposed to say: "no, self actualize" and hang up?</p>

<p>My inclination would have been to say, "Hmm...this sounds really frustrating." Why don't you turn this draft of your paper in, but tell your prof that you know it would really benefit from another draft, and ask your professor if he'll give you some help with revisions and reworking it."</p>

<p>I admit I haven't had the situation. I saw few papers after middle school, even essays that she won scholarships for ( I had to wait till they were published), my daughter was unlikely to ask me for help as she is a much better writer both in style and content.
It really depends on student, if I had a child that was doing fairly well in class and simply was having a really rough time with one assignment, I would encourage them to go to professor/peers as they were in college to utilize those resources not to have me bail them out. But while it is unlikely my younger daughter will ask me for help either, she would much more probably be in need of it. BUt then again I hope I would facilitate finding help on campus and advocate for doing that early on, not wait till the paper is due.
Only if giving help at last minute did not seem to be a habit would I hope that I would consider that.</p>

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<p>The issue of acknowledgment, as distinct from citing, is itself an acknowledgment of how learning has evolved from being a two-way affair with the teacher teaching and the student showing what s/he has learned back to the teacher to a more collaborative endeavor. In elementary and high school, students are not only asked to do group projects but also peer-editing. Reflecting on the experience of my S who has always been a good writer, the students who edited his writing may have benefitted from the exercise more than he did; but though their comments on his work were rather superficial, he probably learned quite a bit from peer-editing other students' work.
In college, study groups are quite common in math/sciences. In the social sciences and humanities, one can think of recitation/section/precept as a form of study group, though there are often study groups in addition to these meetings. Discussions will help students reformulate their ideas. Often, papers on a topic are due after such discussions have been held and students are expected to incorporate what they have learned. In seminars, students are often asked to present a prospectus of their papers, and other participants are asked to comment on the presentation, suggest other sources, other possible frameworks of analysis, etc...
What comes out of these study groups, seminars, etc... is not entirely the work of the writer since s/he has incorporated feedback, but it is definitely not plagiarism.</p>

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<p>I think Bobby100 is at "Harvard." When my S was there, there was a scandal with plagiarism...It was in reference to Chemistry Labs.....a student "borrowed" someone else's labs and submitted them as his own to save time. It is very doubtful that any student at Harvard would have difficulty with an entry-level science class. It was a very big deal. The whole Freshman class knew. My S was scared to death! The student was asked to leave...perhaps take a leave of absence I suppose. My S was careful to make sure his work was his own. The important thing about Harvard I found was that not only do they respect hard work and self-discipline, but there is an assumption that with that comes a sense of moral responsibility and ethics whether it be in the business world or the scientific one. Very important lessons to be learned in life at an early age. In my respect for the Harvard philosophy, they are educating the "whole" child.</p>

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<p>Mackinaw, the way you have worded your last post, I agree with you 100%.</p>

<p>I will add, though, that most of the business papers, articles, etc. my husband does are signed individually for inclusion in various journals or whatever. But yes, I see your point on collaborative papers.</p>

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<p>I have been gone for a few days--computer problems. What an interesting thread. I would have thought it was unusual for college age kids to ask a parent for input on papers, but apparently it is not so unusual. It never occurred to me to do that when I was a student, and my three oldest kids (the oldest two are in college) never let me see anything they write (though sometimes I do see it after a paper has been written and graded). What a thought, kids asking parents for their input! Just goes to show how very different our experiences as parents can be . . .</p>

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<p>I really don't see what helping a kid brainstorm her way to a thesis statement has to do with plagiarism. Of course, it would have been better if my daughter had sought help more than a few hours before the paper was due. On the other hand, I have no idea whether her large university had a writing center or not. The fact is that she did not develop a habit of calling me for help. I certainly would have been concerned if she had. She did learn something about writing a paper, something I've also taught many people who are not my children. Are parents no longer allowed to teach their children once they're in college? Gee, my mom was still trying to "teach" me how to dress when I was in my forties.</p>

<p>I don't remember writing centers when I was in college. I don't remember professors being willing to talk about papers and topics before papers were turned in, to look at early drafts, or to accept revisions. I think the emphasis on the revision process came in an effort to improve academic writing (and boy, could some of my professors have used revision in their own work.) All these things are improvements, though not universally available to every college or every student or in every class. I suspect that colleges with writing centers don't ask students to cite the fact they went to the center for help with a particular paper. They want to encourage students to seek feedback and improve their writing, not discourage them. While it is always gracious to acknowledge help, I don't think this rises to the level of citation. If it did, should students cite the fact that they got grammar and spelling help from a computer program?</p>

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<p>You are correct, Sac, that you do not have to acknowledge help from a school's writing center. I said above I worked at three and work alongside a fourth; also, my kids' high school has one. No teachers at these 4 colleges and one high school require that you "cite" a writing center.</p>

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<p>mstee: anecdotally, it seems from the letters here to be not a matter of parenting style, but of amount of experience in writing and the teaching of writing. Sac's a writer, I teach writing, Voronwe does tutoring--naturally it'd be more likely for our kids to see us as useful resources. Now if my kid had math trouble, that's another subject....:)</p>

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<p>I am a writer and so is my husband. As expressed above so well, we always edit eachother's work, for typos and also substantive edits. He is a screenwriter; if you had to cite everyone who weighed in on a screenplay the credits at the end of a movie would double! In fact, it is a whole different ballgame in creative writing where who gets credit on a film can be determined quite arbitrarily. </p>

<p>I am inclined to try to help my D (within reason) because I remember in HS my dad got me Strunk & White and pretty much was my personal writing tutor (not on any papers, but in general.) His help made me a writer more than anything else.</p>

<p>My math skills are good through about Jr High-- then its dubious... and they're learning stuff in Chemistry that I have never even heard of (I got an A in Chem!) </p>

<p>It's hard to be a kid these days!</p>

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<p>That's a good point. It would be like having a parent who is a doctor or some other type of professional. Of course you would call a doctor parent if you wanted medical advice (after all, the rest of your relatives do). If your parent is a writing teacher, the same thing seems like it would apply.</p>

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<p>Garland--Oh, okay. That makes sense! </p>

<p>Sac sounds like an excellent writing instructor. It's kind of amazing, really, to be able to guide someone through the process like that over the phone.</p>

<p>I do remember one class in college (back in the day) where we had writing tutorials. I think there were four of us in a group and had to meet and critique each other's papers. The professor read them too, and guided the discussion, adding a few comments of his own. That was an unnerving but very productive experience. I think that professors expect, and hope that kids will be talking about ideas for papers with others--that is part of being in college after all. Just hadn't really thought about parents being part of that--but if they are knowledgeable, and have good input, why not, as long as no one is actually writing a paper for someone else!</p>

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<p>Now that we've established it's perhaps matter of expertise -- how many people call their kids for advice? I really miss not having my son around for instant computer help. As for my daughter the college graduate, I ask her advice on how often I should call my son.</p>

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<p>Sac:
I need my S at home to tell me how to turn on the TV/video/DVD! There are something like 6-7 remotes on the TV table, and I don't know which one does what.</p>