Help Kids With College Papers?

Parents Forum
101

<p>"In the experimental sciences, brilliance is valued, but tenacity, conscientiousness, and diligence are also critical."</p>

<p>I think you continue to miss the point. Nobody is questioning whether tenacity is a valuable characteristic. But if that's the strongest thing you can say about an applicant in a letter of recommendation, it's a kiss of death. The same is true in most creative fields. A taste for work is very important to success, but originality and creativity are critical.</p>

102

<p>I agree with Marite that, in college, the grade should be based on the work. When I taught, a student would sometimes come to me with some terrible personal situation. I was always happy to advise the student to contact the counseling center, to consider taking some time off, to think about whether he or she needed to take an incomplete or to drop the course. If someone came in for extra help, that was great. But I never changed a grade on a paper or in a course because of these personal considerations. The work was the work. (In my writing classes, I did always allow and encourage revisions of work I'd commented on and turned back to them. Such revisions were voluntary -- except on the final project, in which they were required -- and I told them that I would consider the grade on the revision as the final grade. I did this because my goal was to get them to turn in a really outstanding piece of work, whether on the first try or the third, and because eventually most of them develop their internal editor to the point at which they recognize if they've done good work. This gets to the question of what the purpose of a grade is -- to teach and motivate, or to help some future admissions committee or employer evaluate the student.)</p>

<p>It's impossible to measure all the advantages vs disadvantages one student has over another. What about the student who seeks feedback from a roomate on a paper, but one student rooms with a future novelist, while another has been paired with an engineer whose first language is not English? What about the student who has been sent off to college with a computer and therefore can go online and find sources in the middle of the night, versus the one who has to trudge to the library or computer center? The student who has three papers due the same week versus the one who lucked out and has staggered assignments? The female student who the week the paper is due has just found a lump in her breast; the male student who has just heard his parents are divorcing...On and on and on...</p>

103

<p>Good work habits are also critical factors to strong grades and a strong CV but if that's the most significant thing a letter-writer can say about a student, every experienced letter-reader would read this as a weak letter of recommendation.</p>

<p>I would agree with this--which is why I think effort should typically be weighed when a student is truly on the borderline, midway between two grades, and the instructor is feeling genuinely uncertain about whether to give a student "the benefit of the doubt."</p>

<p>Instructors who tell their students that they will weigh effort in such borderline cases are using grades to create incentives for worthwhile effort.</p>

<p>And grades are not just important for the tiny percentage of student who aspire to admission to the elite Ph.D. programs. Employers and professional schools also care about grades--and they may have a different tradeoff between brilliance and conscientious effort.</p>

<p>Again, the problem is that grades are a single instrument with many different--and sometimes conflicting--purposes and uses.</p>

104

<p>You are right that many employers do look at grades. Some even request test score information. My son's first employer asked about his SAT, his LSAT, and his grades. They also asked for copies of his written work (a research paper). And they were interested in his range of qualifications including "academic" (grades, test scores, program of study), quantitative and statistical skills, computer skills (esp. spreadsheets, powerpoint), teamwork, leadership, and international experience. This was for a job in business consulting.</p>

<p>In many creative areas, such as art and design, just like admissions to undergraduate programs are often based a lot more on an audition or a portfolio than on GPA and test scores, so too is getting a good job highly dependent on demonstrated individual talent through an audition and portfolio. While the ability to audition well or to have an outstanding portfolio depends in part on training and background, talent and creativity are critical to success on the market and are not simply a result of classroom work or performance or of grades in classes.</p>

105

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<p>Sorry, no one will care. My H, by the way, was an experimental physicist, so I know about work ethics, etc... Frankly, having followed the career path of his labmates, I can say that being a wonderful human being, or even a hard- working one was of far less importance than being thought creative and imaginative. </p>

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<p>Homeschoolmom, I have been on grad admissions committees and on fellowship committees, where U was known to be a softie. And I can tell you, people want to judge the product, not the person. In one committee I sat on once, there was a huge dispute because someone introduced personal information about an applicant (or rather, the applicant's family). Committee members objected that they should not know that information and should not take it into account (which, I have to say, was mighty hard to do). Recommendations were treated very seriously. And so were transcripts.</p>

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<p>Indeed. If a company wants to hire a hard-working employee, that company should look at recs and the interview, not at grades. If that company wants an employee who is reasonably good and reasonably conscientious, the company will want to look at both recs, interview and grades. Grades, recs, interviews all serve different functions.</p>

106

<p>"Sorry, no one will care. My H, by the way, was an experimental physicist, so I know about work ethics, etc... Frankly, having followed the career path of his labmates, I can say that being a wonderful human being, or even a hard- working one was of far less importance than being thought creative and imaginative."</p>

<p>Hear hear. In academic settings, arguments that somebody is friendly, helpful to others, and a carries the committee-work load are the last refuge of someone who is about to be denied tenure. Research product, as judged by peer review of original work, is by far the most important (and in many contexts the only important) criterion for tenure and promotion.</p>

107

<p>Bringing this discussion back to the college application process for a moment, would the same standards hold? </p>

<p>For example, my D has a friend who is incredibly diligent and gets all A's, but is neither highly creative nor brilliant. She is very, very motivated and it is terribly important to her to do her best, to the point that she will work till 1:00 am then set her alarm for 4:00 am to get everything done. She is taking I think 5 AP classes this year (senior year.) I think she may have a mild dyslexia or something because she needs a lot of time to complete work. This also hurts her SAT scores (due to time.)</p>

<p>College isn't grad school... Is there room at any top schools for this sort of kid whose effort is so extraordinary? I have not been on any admission committee but my heart says people who care this much (and are able to keep afloat in a highly competitive environment in HS) are valuable in a college setting.</p>

108

<p>"Sorry, no one will care. My H, by the way, was an experimental physicist, so I know about work ethics, etc... Frankly, having followed the career path of his labmates, I can say that being a wonderful human being, or even a hard- working one was of far less importance than being thought creative and imaginative."</p>

<p>I've also worked in different parts of academia, including graduate admissions committees. There are places where people do care about personal qualities of the graduate students, especially if they will be relying on them for teaching and research assistance I've worked at a school that took pride in turning down occasional applicants with high GPAs and perfect GRE-quant scores because they were obnoxious and abrasive, or because they just seemed flakey--brilliant but erratic work habits.</p>

109

<p>SBmom:</p>

<p>There's certainly room. There are many different colleges who cater to rather different students. I once overheard two adcoms discussing an applicant whose GPA was so-so (by the standards of their school) but had perfect SATs. "Uh oh, an underachiever, we don't want those, do we?" I had to refrain from saying that, in my experience, many underachievers are underchallenged students who balk at doing busywork.</p>

<p>Then there is the MIT evaluation form that asks How has the student achieved good grades in class:
a/by consistent hard work; b/by grade consciousness; c/by virtue of memory;
d/by brilliance of mind.
It also asks to rate the applicant according to the following criteria:
a. interacts well with other students.
b interacts well with teachers.
c. works well independently
d. works well on a team
e. reacts well to adversity
f. warmth of personality
h.sense of humor
g. integrity.</p>

<p>There are other criteria for rating the student, but these are the most interesting. I cannot say how common the second set of criteria are for liberal arts colleges. MIT, after all, is an engineering school where teamwork is important. </p>

<p>I want to caution about striving for reach schools. Granted that we want all students to aim high, as high as they can. But it is also wise to look beyond admission to the actual college experience. Will the student be able to handle a rigorous work-load without running herself into the ground? Will she be able to cope with not always getting As no matter how hard she works? Some colleges are more high-pressure than others. Some, that do not look very selective in the rankings, actually have a very nurturing environment that brings out the best of all students. As others have pointed out, faculty members across many many schools were trained at the same schools. My take would be that a student should aim to be among the top half of the college which s/he wants to attend.</p>

110

<p>To put this in a slightly different frame, as a (former) dept. chair, while I would never knowingly hire a complete jerk, the characteristics I most looked for can be ranked as follows: (1) creativity, originality in research, (2) training, skills, (3) ambition, (4) willingness to work hard, (5) teaching ability. Other personality characteristics might be a distant 6th, but again we only screened against a**holes, not against people who were merely slightly misanthropic or uncollegial.</p>

111

<p>Marite: But it is also wise to look beyond admission to the actual college experience. Will the student be able to handle a rigorous work-load without running herself into the ground? Will she be able to cope with not always getting As no matter how hard she works.</p>

<p>I agree most strongly with what Marite said. If this young woman is getting 3 hours of sleep in order to do what she sees as a satisfactory job in high school, I have to worry whether she has enough energy in reserve to handle a highly demanding college. </p>

<p>If she has dyslexia or some other learning disability, I would suggest a college that provides good support to help her cope wit whatever those issues are and to succeed. (There are blind students who have graduated from top schools--obviously with great effort on their part and very inspirational to their classmates!--so it can be done by some.)</p>

<p>And I also suggest considering a "gap year" between high school and college, to catch up on her sleep, regather her strength and energies, and get a fresh perspective.</p>

<p>3 hours a night on a consistent basis seems very unhealthful to me.</p>

112

<p>Marite & Homeschoolmom: </p>

<p>I completely agree with you. I told my D that if <em>she</em> had to work those extreme hours to get A's, I'd rather she have all C's and go to community college. </p>

<p>I suspect that this kid is very internally driven; I don't think the parents are forcing it. Hopefully the GC knows what is happening, how much time is required for these grades, and thus is guiding this kid to apply to some other sorts of schools...</p>

113

<p>Bobby101:</p>

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Boy, you are very involved parents. I gleaned from reading through some threads that many of your kids are in college yet you are still here representing their interests. I am most impressed

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<p>....and you say that you are a college student, and apparently not a freshman. I am wondering what your purpose is in posting here on the parents forum. It is unusual to see a college student posting on the parents forum.</p>

114

<p>"It is unusual to see a college student posting on the parents forum."</p>

<p>Actually, students post very often, for a variety of reasons. Sometimes they say they've already posted on the kids' board and think they'll get better help here; other times they feel more "at home" in a more reasonable forum!</p>

115

<p>Voronwe: high school students and students applying to grad schools, absolutely. Can you tell me how many college students in the midst of college, not freshmen like our friend Xiggi who is reporting on adapting to college, post? Neo posted a lot last year as a freshman. No word from him this year. My point is a note of caution about posters' true identities.</p>

116

<p>Ok - you're probably right, patient!</p>