@londondad , Although they are public universities, both UVa and W & M are known for holistic admissions, and do not seem overly numbers-based . But, of course, scores are considered. The reality is that a 29 is not that high for W & M (and many kids would not get accepted with that score since they have many more applicants than available seats, especially for OOS students).There is no way to know the other content of the application and how strong the other components of the application really were. The fact that she was denied and not even deferred may mean that , unfortunately ,she may just not have had what W & M is looking for. Good luck to her with her other applications!
Well, I believe William and Mary mishandled my Title IX complaint so… Right now I am up in arms against the school’s administration for weaseling their way out of addressing my allegations of sexual misconduct. Meanwhile, my perpetrator won’t be punished.
W&M is a transfer friendly school. If you look at common data set, their admit rate might be slightly higher for transfer than for regular admission.
I would recommend College of Charleston and Gettysburg in PA (but close to DC) for history loving students. We know of someone who was denied at W&M, went to Gettysburg with an offer that made it about the same price as instate. Gettysburg has a good alumni network here in DC.
University of Richmond is a possibility for this student, but prob no merit aid.
Good luck to her!
@sevmom Thanks again for all your great insight! A few things - Claudia is the one driving the VA schools, her APUSH teachers just coincidently is from VA and we just don’t have much info about them so she really wants his advice, esp as his mom taught at some of them. She LOVES VA and is very interested in learning more about the states history and what it has to offer. We qualify for very good FA at schools that offer it, esp private schools so while UR is a long shot, it would cost much less than the others and is a great school so we’re giving it a go!
@londondad and @sevmom Yes, a 29 on an ACT isn’t great to get into these schools but W&M kept telling us how holistic they are and I certainly thought that for a history major they would see how well she did on the ENg & writing part & let that offset the math. She got a 750 on the SAT Subject History exam, will have 8 AP courses, so far mainly scores of 5 and a 4. The others she will take this spring. Weighted GPA of 4.3 (might be higher) and in the 12th% out of a school of 4000 kids. When I spoke w/ W&M yesterday about her being denied they then said the look at that but what really matters is the overalls score, ugh. That wasn’t what denied her it was that and her essay, while creative and she liked them, Claudia did NOT take that passion for history and tie it into how she will use that at W&M, she just talked about her passion. I told her she needed to tie it in more but she was quite stubborn and it cost her dearly. The W&M rep felt these 2 things along w/ a very competitive applicant pool cost her but she asked if my daughter would be interested in transferring and said she was an exceptionally strong candidate so who knows.
For those who asked, she might apply to C of Charleston but really wants to get out of the area and see something new. We are downtown Charleston all the time, her best friends mom is a French proff there and she’s at the college a lot. If she can get into MW then she’d rather go there and hopefully she can get into MW as all her scores are above their middle 50%.
@VAOptimist We toured Gettysburg, she has a friend there but ti was small as was the town, in sort of the middle of no where. She did like it though. Our friend there says they FA office is terrible, not really interested in working w/ you very much and if she can get into MW she would prefer to be there. I hope your right about W&M being a transfer friendly school! No, she won’t get merit aid anywhere I’m afraid but we qualify for a lot of need based aid, fortunately or unfortunately, lol. I’m a single mom and finances have been tight but I am putting everything into her education, she’s my only kid and she LOVES school and learning and I want her to get a great education.
@londondad No, no other test optional schools we have found that fit what she wants. WF is a huge long shot but if we use a fee waiver than that’s ok. Davidson seems great but hard for her to get in. Elon seems pretty good, very pretty but might not be challenging enough - anyone know how it compares to MW? I have looke dup stats but personal stories mean a lot.
@wisteria100 I think she lucked out at getting a 23 on math so no, the subject test she’d bomb. Part of the problem is that her HS has algebra 3 so in a regular algebra 2 class, they learn only half of what regular schools teach, the other part is in algebra 3 so when she took the ACT/SAT she had not had all of the math she was tested on. She is taking algebra 3 now and pre-cal next sem. She wanted to take stats but her advisor said to try harder math courses. She manages a B in math every year but we are worried about the pre-cal coming up. She does better on ACT (I think) so will retake a few times after all her math.
Does anyone know - if she has a 29 ACT and 1230 SAT - which is better or are they the same? Both have low math and very high Eng/Writing.
Thank you!!! hope I didn’t miss anyone! I do appreciate you guys (ya’ll) hanging in there with me!
The conversion chart I just looked at says a 29 is comparable to a 1290-1320 SAT. So, in your daughter’s case, yes, it does look like she does better on the ACT than she does on the SAT’s. (with her 1230),
Have you run the NPC’s for the OOS publics you are looking at, like JMU and UMW? Glad she is considering applying to College of Charleston. Always good to have a possibly more affordable , instate option as backup. UR and Elon do sound like good options for applications to privates.
Agree with sevmom. Please make sure she applies to College of Charleston as academic and financial safety. Once she has the admission, you can use it in your FA discussion with private colleges.
@cloudysmom
Think it is worth retaking ACT or a math subject test now that she has had more math, to see if she can get the score up. Even, for a history major, the math score needs to be competitive at schools like UVA, UR, W&M, Davidson. But she is probably fine at JMU, Elon, MW. Also think that not having Calc could be an issue - many kids applying to UR and UVA are going to have that on the transcript and it signals rigor. So a 23 ACT math score combined with a less rigorous math curriculum makes it a tough admit at these schools. And while a 750 subject test on History is very good, it is the 84%, so that may not wow anybody.
UR has about 3,000 undergrads - of she is worried about a small school - is that going to be big enough?
@cloudysmom at JMU students can sign a two year housing contract when they sign up for housing as a freshman. This will guarantee them a place in campus housing for their first 2 years. The juniors I know who have lived in campus have mostly been RAs, but I asked my students and on campus housing is available to juniors and seniors. It is just that most choose to live off campus in apartments.
The off campus housing is close to campus. Some walking distance. There are students who live in houses together, and there are tons of all student apartment complexes that are basically like outsourced student apartments.
My DD was waitlisted by W& M and accepted to UVA. So it isn’t a given that your daughter has no shot at UVA. If your kid loved the history of W & M I would give a UVA application a shot. My daughter isn’t into sports, Greek life, or Thomas Jefferson and she loves, loves, loves, loves, UVA even though she basically headed there kicking and screaming. She is so glad things worked out the way.
Did anyone mention that UVA is considered a public Ivy?? So…
“Did anyone mention that UVa is considered a public Ivy?” No, and not sure what that has to do with this discussion.
@mom23travelers Glad your daughter loves UVa. If she was waitlisted at W & M, she must have been a competitive candidate for them as well. If you are instate, that can help. UVa is larger than W & M as well. The OP’s daughter is OOS and competing with high stats kids for more limited OOS seats. She is at the lower end of the ACT range, so UVa would be a reach. She also has said she does not like UVa so perhaps her time is better spent looking for affordable matches and safeties. W & M was a reach, UR is her other reach that she may be applying to. But, of course , you never know with UVa since they use holistic admissions. If she changes her mind about UVa, and does apply, at least they meet need for OOS and cap the amount of loans. That is my concern about JMU and UMW. I don’t believe they limit loan amounts and an OOS student may end up having to take out significant loans if money is an issue. In that case, an instate school would usually be more affordable. But, I could be wrong on that-which is why I asked the OP if she had run the NPC’s for JMU and UMW.
@sevmom. I haven’t run it yet, my computer has been acting up and I have the flu. I ran it for another school a few wks ago & we qualify for max aid, trouble is as you said, JMU & UMW limit loan amts, W&M did too. The grandparents have enough to cover gaps for 1st 2 yrs, then they will help but can’t as much so I am trying to increase my income, she is applying for private scholarships (all those small ones), Pell Grants & I don’t want a lot of loans but will have to at least do a GSL. I state is more affordable if she doesn’t get into a private school, but she would be so miserable, I’d have to force her, after this huge disappointment I don’t think I can do that.
@wisteria100 & @sevmom I didn’t realize W& M was as much of a reach as it was. Everywhere I looked it said middle 50% had ACT 29-32, she had a 29 & if they looked, would see her Eng & writing were 35s. So I figured that was ok. Her AP 5 scores were better than many, she took college courses at W & M last summer by getting into the history NIAHD program, she had to submit scores and an essay and be accepted. They always say they want students to take their education as far as they can, well that was a good way to do it. But it all wasn’t good enough so she’ll try & transfer but she assumes me she will give wherever she goes a fair chance. She will retake the ACT after she finishes learning all the math so June I guess. UR is smaller than she wants but it’s better than JMU or UMW academically & that’s more important. She’s probably still want to transfer but if it didn’t work, a degree from UR would be great, it’s very beautiful and we think she’d like it. Great SA and FA just hard to get in!
@mom23travelers Thankmyou, she may try it but seems too remote a chance. I guess it will a,so depend if she can get her essays together by 1/1, she is trying, but a lot of schools to apply to. I do think she’d love the history at UVA as well, I think we just got a bad guide, we were tired from traveling, 4th school in just a few days, etc.
@KatMT thanks, good to know she can at least do 2 yrs!
@cloudysmom My D2 felt comfortable right away at UR even though she doesn’t usually transition easily and is very hard to please. She liked that we were invited into the Black Box (theater classroom) by a professor during our tour and at the end of the tour, the women who was checking everyone in remembered her name. She is also a bio/environ. science major and they have a state of the art lab. The size of the school was also a plus. She worked extremely hard to get a Richmond Scholarship so that she could attend. Scores are important but gpa is also important. I think that the essays are also very important. She wrote an amazing Spider essay. I think that they value creativity as well. She also liked the fact that very few from her H.S. were applying. UR is fairly diverse for a small school and they have a fairly large international contingency. My D1 is a jr. at WM double majoring in English/sociology. It is the perfect place for her. There is a very studious vibe at WM at least in my D’s circle. It is not for the faint of heart. She is very involved in a few activities and spends a lot of time with her studies which is fine because that is her passion.
JMU and UMW may actually not limit loans, they may expect an OOS student to take out more loans than you may want to get into . These schools are about $40,000 for an OOS student. Please run the NPC’s for W & M, JMU and UMW for an OOS student and go from there. It does not take long to get an initial idea of what to expect. UMW may have some merit but probably would still be more expensive than an instate public option. Many kids say they want to go OOS but if it is not affordable, don’t feel guilty. Most kids go where their parents can afford for them to go, either with the parent’s own funds, need based aid , merit aid or a combination. Most kids remain instate unless they can get a better deal elsewhere. You said earlier I believe that most of her friends are going to go to instate schools. There is a reason for that- unless a family is wealthy or the kid can get great need based or merit aid elsewhere, lots of them will go to community college or attend an instate option. And please don’t rely on the grandparents unless they have already advanced you the money for her education. And you have said you would use the equity in your house if need be- that could be useful in your retirement so please be careful with that. Your daughter’s education is important but so is your future financial health . If it comes to an instate option being the best choice, she will have options as an adult to live wherever she wants to or pursue graduate school at lots of schools. She may be “miserable” if she has to start at less than her dream school but lots of kids do that and do just fine. You can do this. You sound like a great, supportive mom. Just don’t shortchange yourself to give your daughter an experience that you really might not be able to afford. She may thank you later .
@LMHLAW3 Thank you, my D doesn’t do change or transition well either. Congrats on her Richmond Scholarship, she is in a much better position than my D if her scores/grades are that good. She’s working on her spider essay & it needs to be very good for her to have any prayer. Your D at W& M sounds like my D. She isn’t that interested in being social, just a few friends & is very into studying, not parties, I think she would fit in so well at W& M, just so heartbreaking she didn’t get in. I hope she can transfer, if she still wants to at the time.
@sevmom Thanks for the kind words. I do feel guilty about sending her in state, mainly because she has all but given up a social life just to study & go to a school out of state, in VA, to get away. It’s bad enough she can’t go to her dream school of W& M but to have to stay in state is salt in the wound. I also have the single mom guilt, lol. I didn’t want to get a divorce but he traded me in for a younger model, and hasn’t seen Claudia in over 4 yrs. No child support as he is a chef & gets paid under the table. To prove it I have to fly up to MA & retain an attny, multiple trips, I can’t afford it. He won’t pay anything towards college or anything else, never has. UR has a non custodial parent financial profile, I can’t fill it out, not even sure where he lives, so he could screw the aid up for her as I think he makes a good bit as I hear thru the grapevine. So that’s worrying me as there is a waiver but I need court docs/ police reports & have none of that.
College of Charleston is something she’s thinking about, however, for the reasons you mentioned. Tons of girls from her HS go there & the girls she doesn’t like. Its very preppy, cliques, sports & sorority focused. I would worry about her getting a roommate like that. She is quiet, a real history nerd, loves to study. And here in the south, most kids seem to stay in state because of friggin football. I know a lot if people who have gone to a college for generations just because of football. These kids are smart, could even get into Ivy League schools but they go to a lesser school, even crap schools, all because of football. It’s the dumbest reason to pick a school. She doesn’t want to be w/ these people, very football & sorority focused here. Trying to find a real studious school of like minded kids but not sure she can get into any. Looking at Elon in NC, Villanova maybe as she’d like to be near the history of Phily.
I know many kids start at a school unhappy & learn to love it I just didn’t want that to be her, not after how hard she’s worked. Sigh. Abut unless I can get her excited about a school she can get into that has good aid, it may happen Praying she gets into UR, gotta be an amazing spider essay though & hard to know what they’re looking for.
Her grandparents gave $ in an education IRA so I know it’s earmarked for her college which is the only reason I know I can count on it.
Great that her grandparents can help. Good luck with the UR app!
Given what you said about your ex, that is another reason to maybe not bother with the UVA application since you were on the fence already. UVA requires the CSS profile which will consider non custodial parent income even if they don’t pay child support which is probably a headache you just don’t need.
Good luck to you and your daughter. It’s a stressful time but works out well for most in the end.
@cloudysmom , would your daughter consider a school like GW - its in DC, close to W & M, GREAT for history, is generous with aid and test optional now?
Might as well chime in here. My d is a jr at jmu, in the honors college and loves it! Honors kids are guaranteed housing all four years and they have both an honors dorm and apartments as choices. There are many opportunities for study abroad and research (my d’s roommate received a grant to do research in Africa this summer). There is truly something for everyone. My d does not party or do Greek life and finds plenty to do. The Shenandoah valley area is beautiful and the town of Harrisonburg quaint with a variety of restaurants and coffee shops.
But JMU or GMU or CNU do not have the same vibe as W&M. I would think W&L would come closest but it’s fairly conservative and Greek-y! UR is gorgeous but definitely preppy/wealthy feeling - many UR kids are also from the northeast. UVA is bigger than W&M and obviously less colonial but very focused on history & tradition. The grounds just ooze history. I think UVA would be a serious reach tho with a low math act and oos.
I wish your d the best of luck. I will say that jmu was not my d’s first choice for college but she cannot imagine being happier anywhere else. I am sure your d will love wherever she goes!