Help me decide: Williams vs Yale (and maybe Dartmouth)

College Search & Selection
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Hi friends,

I feel silly having strangers on the internet playing even a small role in my college selection process but I’ve received/seen such insightful comments on this forum that I thought this would be worth a stab. I’ll attend the admitted student visit days and talk to people in-person so this isn’t going to make or break. That being said, here’s the situation…

I had a fantastically lucky college admissions cycle and got admitted to 5 schools: Kenyon, Williams, Dartmouth, Brown and Yale.

I’m pretty sure Brown and Kenyon are out but I’m having a hard time deciding between the other three (mostly Williams vs. Yale). I don’t know that much at all so please educate me. Thanks!

Williams Pros:

  • I got in here first and was completely content to go.
  • The size/environment appeals to me. I like the idea of being a big fish in a small pond, of being able to participate in a sport, lead one or two clubs and really feel like an integral part of the community (sorry if this sounds egocentric). I love the idea of recognizing everyone around campus.
  • Easier to try new things (my guess, correct me I'm wrong). I don't really want to feel excluded. I don't expect to star in a musical with no prior acting experience but I want to have the opportunity get into drama without feeling like there's no place for absolute beginners. Ditto for sports, clubs and classes.
  • Specific opportunities: Whether it's the oxbridge fellowships, the Georgia winter study program, williams-mystic, or tutorials there are just so many awesome opportunities that I'm interested in.
  • The education. The most valuable part of my high school education has been small group discussions and one-on-one conversations with teachers.
  • People seem to love Williams and the alumni loyalty is legendary -sense of community (major factor for me)

Williams Cons:

  • Not sure how diverse the social scene is
  • More limited in some ways (fewer niche clubs and classes)
  • That’s it

Yale Pros:

  • The prestige/network. It’s far from the only advantage, but I’d be lying to omit it. As someone who has no idea where I’ll end up career/major wise and is interested in certain things (journalism, politics, etc.) where connections matter, I feel like the Yale name is a non-negligible factor.
  • Directed Studies. This program seems absolutely amazing. Read a wide range of the most influential Western texts and build solid writing skills under the tutelage of world class professors. Count me in!
  • The traditions/culture. Yale has the harvard football game, naked parties, residential colleges, masters teas, freshman screw, etc. Yale seems to have a rich set of traditions. I also have heard that Yalies feel a kinship towards one another and that this applied to alumni as well. Also, Yalies seem universally nice.
  • the social scene. The idea of crazy parties with substances doesn't appeal to me but I am very extroverted. I like the idea of students who are passionate about academics/extracurricular but also hang out in different settings. My friend who is class of 2022 seems to be always doing fun things (" just came from game night," "watching a movie with my suitemates," etc.). For me, I want college to be four years of making memories. Yale seems to lend itself to that.
  • Certain clubs. I'm an amateur stand-up comedian so Yale's comedy scene is a huge plus (I'm not sure there's that much comedy at Williams, please tell me if I'm wrong). Also, I'm interesting in joining the YPU.
  • I'd definitely be a little uncomfortable being a small fish in a big pond, going from a rural private school to a gritty city (somewhat), and being surrounded by type-A people. This is all terrifies me but I know it's probably healthy for me to break outside my comfort zone.
  • Gothic architecture and the overall vibe it creates

yale Cons

These are all uneducated fears, based on my own speculations.

  • As I said, I don't want to feel excluded. I'm scared that I'll go and feel shut out from secret societies, club leadership, high-level classes, travel grants, fellowships, sports etc.
  • I'm scared Yale is a place for people who are hyper-skilled at specific things. As someone who wants to begin new things, this terrifies me. Is there a place for someone who wants to get into theatre or do I need to have acted from age 5? Can I be part of student. government., the yale record and a couple of other clubs or will a single extracurricular suck all of my time? Can I learn physics out of interest or is the department catering for geniuses?
  • The size. I'm coming from a pretty tight-knit 300 student school in New England; going to a 5500 student college intimidates me slightly. Will there be so much going on that I'll always feel like I'm missing out? Will everyone on campus be a stranger?
  • The quality of STEM classes (not Yale-specific, just research universities in general). I visited a multi-variable calc class at Brown and it was kind of questionable. The teacher was a foreign grad student who went through a lesson pretty formulaically and there was zero student engagement. The teacher never posed a question on the board and tried to cox the class through to understanding and there were no student questions. Is it like this at Yale as well? I really want to be able to -- as a non-STEM major -- take physics, biology and math classes out of genuine curiosity and get to understand the subjects better.
  • Will I be able to resist the lucrative exit-options (e.g consulting, wall street) and forge my own path so to speak? It's hard to imagine knowingly turning down 150k salary offers to work in a creative field or start something new.

Dartmouth:

  • middle ground in terms of size?
  • People seem to absolutely love it
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The residential college will give you the close-knit feel you cherish at Yale.

3

Is cost a factor? If not, then it will really come down to LAC vs. University which is more about fit than anything else. It’s a wonderful predicament to be in! From your earlier posts it sounds like you really connect with the feel of an LAC (reading into it of course, but I was following your Kenyon post earlier.) On the other hand, Yale is hard to pass up without careful consideration. I think you should honestly just attend both admitted students day and follow your gut from there.

If you don’t mind me asking, what do you think the difference was in your application that got you admitted to 3 Ivy’s and the top LAC in the country? Did you have any hooks? Did you end up raising your SAT this year? You are clearly a very articulate writer and very good at expressing your thoughts— your personality must have really come through in your essays. Again congratulations! Your stats give a glimmer of hope that a “great kid with great stats” might have a shot (small as it may be) at these schools.

4

Congratulations!

I don’t know what it is about Williams and Yale, but there is a lot of overlap between the two in applications and admissions! A few people my son knows at Williams were deferred from Yale early action, then rejected, and now at Williams. Some students do pick Williams above Yale. Most people in your shoes will pick Yale, if only to avoid telling people where you go to college and having them ask, “Is that William and Mary? Roger Williams?” The Yale name is more well-known, for sure. Choosing Williams above Yale means really believing that a small college environment will be where you will thrive and grow the most. If you are confident of that, then Williams is a wonderful choice.

Here are some considerations:

Excellence of faculty and learning experience: This will not differentiate the two. Both are among the nation’s finest.

Ability of peers, plus intellectual conversations in class, dorms and dining halls: Again, both colleges will provide an immersive experience in “the life of the mind.”

After college: Most graduate schools and many employers (including Wall Street and Silicon Valley type employers) will be equally impressed by both colleges. But there will be employers, colleagues, and clients who will have heard of Yale but not of Williams.

Class size and courses: Students will experience more small classes at Williams right from freshman year. However, the course catalogs will be less extensive than at Yale.

Research and Professor Access: Yale will have more cutting-edge research, and students with a highly specific research interest may be more likely to find a professor who shares it. But at Williams, the professors will have undergrads as their research assistants, instead of graduate students. Professors at Williams are expected to be excellent teachers, not just excellent researchers/ writers. And they are very accessible- they know each student’s name and may join them for meals and events on campus. I bet you can develop similarly close relationships with the amazing professors at Yale— but you may have to take more initiative to make it happen.

Community size: If you like to meet a lot of new people and be able to reinvent yourself periodically, the larger Yale may give you more flexibility. If you want to know a reasonably high percentage of people in your class by the end of four years, and be part of a tight-knit, nurturing community, which leads to loyal alumni with a strong network, then Williams may appeal.

Clubs: I think you are correct in the pros and cons of each. Yes, Yale may have more options because it has more students. Yes, Williams is a terrific place to try out a lot of different things, and it is not hard to join almost any activity. And it is really easy to rise to a leadership position; for example, some freshmen have already become section editors of the main newspaper, and it is only the middle of their first year! It also is pretty easy to start a new club and get funding approved for it.

Traditions: You named some awesome ones at Yale. Williams has enjoyable traditions, too. Here are two favorites. On Mountain Day, the president cancels classes unexpectedly (sort of: everyone knows it will be on a Friday in October), the bells ring to indicate it is Mountain Day, and students spend the day hiking up a local mountain and, once at the top, listening to a cappella groups and enjoying donuts and cider. For All-Night Trivia, form your own team and compete in an all-night trivia contest; there also are alumni teams that compete in it from all across the United States and even outside the country (there was a Canadian team this January).

It sounds like you did your research and know a lot about each college. But here are some of the most distinguishing features of Williams:

  1. The tutorial system. Two students take a class with the professor. Each week, one student prepares a paper and the other reads the paper and prepares a critique. Very intense, but amazing.
  2. The freshman entry- You will live in an “entry” with about 39 other freshmen and 3-4 Junior Advisors (who are like big brothers/ sisters and do not have any disciplinary role; they are unpaid and chosen by their peers, not the college). Your entrymates are a built-in friend group when you first arrive. And each entry is designed as a diverse microcosm of the college community, so you will really experience the diversity of Williams. (But this is less of a differentiator from Yale than from other universities, because of Yale’s House system, which also creates a community.)
  3. The freshman orientation program- Start the year with two weeks before classes start just to make friends and get used to being away from home. Do a bunch of activities with your entry mates. Read a book and debrief it with a professor and a group of students. Sign up for an Ephventure of your choice with another group of students, and spend intensive time getting to know those people as you go on adventures together.
  4. Winter Study- a month every year in which to study one subject pass-fail, possibly going to another nation in a travel class or doing an internship in a potential career field. There will be lots of free time to socialize, enjoy winter sports, and be active in your clubs and activities.

The happiest students at Williams will enjoy being in the mountains, and being on a tight-knit campus where most of the action (student performances, guest speakers, club and sport activities, special events and activities, etc.) takes place on campus as opposed to off-campus. If you crave more off-campus action, you may prefer all the opportunities that New Haven may offer. In addition, New Haven is close enough to New York City for easy day trips on a weekend.

Good luck! It probably will come down to your feelings about fame, size, and location. Both colleges are amazing, so you really cannot make a “bad” decision. Either way, you can expect a fantastic four years. Enjoy!

5

I don’t think you can go wrong with either really.
My kid graduated from a high school of less than 100 kids total.
I always liked the idea of a LAC more. She seems very happy at Yale and says you can make it as big or as small as you want. The comment above about the residential college system is one I would agree with.
Academically the students at Williams and Yale are peers. You were admitted to both for a reason. I doubt you would be a big fish in a small pond at Williams. A big fish swimming with more big fish.
My understanding is that there are many Williams grads on Wall Street.
Visit then decide.

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I don’t know anything about Yale, but I have a couple of comments regarding your “pro” Wiiliams list to consider:
Williams is intense academically and it would be inaccurate in my opinion to consider that you would be a big fish in a small pond.

While Williams competes in D3 instead of D1 like Yale, many of Williams teams are at the top of D3 and many of the players could have played for a D1 team. I would speak with the coach to confirm that you would be able to participate on the athletic team.

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Are you a recruited athlete with a guaranteed roster spot at Williams? I assume no, as you probably would have needed to apply ED. If not, then I would decide without regard to a varsity sport (maybe you were referring to a club sport or trying to walk on to a varsity team, but they often have roster limits). I would visit both and pick between Yale and Williams. Dartmouth is great too and definitely has some of both Williams and Yale, but Yale would be very tough to pass up unless you really want that LAC experience, in which case Williams is outstanding. We visited Williams with my son it is was impressive on many levels, though not near any other schools or major cities. Personally, I’d chose Yale and then Brown or Williams, but I see you dropped Brown.

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@2manycollegequestions4me

Thanks for replying. You hit the nail on the head; the LAC vs. university debate is what I’m contending with. On the one hand, I feel like the environment of a small undergrad-only college suits me. On the other hand, Yale is hard to turn down as it has a super rich culture, specific programs I like and a “better” (or at least higher profile) reputation. I think I will end up attending visit days at both schools and deciding based on instinct more than anything else.

As for why I got in, I don’t know exactly. I think I just genuinely tried to make the most of high school. In many ways, I got extremely lucky. I didn’t really study for the SAT but I test well and somehow pulled off a 1590 on my second try. I also wasn’t a straight-A student but I took the most challenging classes I could, did well relative to most of my peers and had a few well-developed extracurricular interests. I’m ashamed to say I did my supplements the night before but they turned out okay and showcased my personality.

My impression (correct me if I’m wrong) is that you’re either a student or parent who is still in the midst of this “process” and is looking for advice. I’m really not much more than an exceptionally fortunate 17 year old but here’s what I’ll say.

  1. People (colleges, friends, teachers, etc.) are interested in interesting individuals. I didn't focus too much on college throughout high school. I came across the concept of constructed languages while taking a summer course before my junior year and did an independent project on Esperanto. There were two extracurriculars I poured myself into (debate and student government) and I casually tried out all the clubs I could. In addition, I was always passionate about writing; I participated in writing conferences, ran a personal blog and wrote for my school paper. Writing a satirical stand-up comedy set about "winning school" turned into a more serious interest in comedy that I mentioned on my application.

In my free time, I read books, hang out with friends and procrastinate by watching youtube videos (i.e totally normal high school stuff). I think trying out things that piqued my interest rather than getting sucked into the resume-warrior mentality worked out for me.

Developing hobbies, contributing to your school community and having fun will lead to four years well spent no matter how a college admissions committee views you. Incidentally, being legitimately curious and interesting is an attractive trait to universities as well.

  1. I had a pretty clear case as to why I would benefit a school. If someone asks "why should X college admit you" I think one should have a clear, concrete and concise answer. If you don't, then maybe there's really no compelling reason that a college should take you over any other applicant. For me, I happen to sincerely love my high school and I've invested a lot of time trying to enrich it as best I can. I'll purposely be vague about what I've done for anonymity's sake (sorry). My pitch was that I'm an extroverted student who will bridge social groups and impact student life by bolstering political discussion, contributing to the comedy scene, etc.
  2. Communication skills. I'm not exceptionally smart but I'm a sociable person who loves writing. Being able to write cogent essays, present well in interviews and make positive impressions on adults (e.g your teachers) is vital. STEM-focused introverts are kind of at a disadvantage, I guess.
  3. Did I mention luck? I go to a small private school with a lot of opportunities, have a really supportive family and, by no virtue of my own, have had fairly unique life experiences (e.g growing up visiting my grandparents in a rural European village but also being a religious Hindu).
  4. Don't stress out and all the best!
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@TheGreyKing

Wow, thanks for giving me such a comprehensive and thoughtful response. Your post reinforces my impression that Williams systematically (through tutorials, entry system, etc.) uses intimacy as it’s biggest asset – both in terms of the academic and social experiences. As someone who wants to be part of a big collegiate family, this is a huge pro.

That being said, you’re right that Yale is the “natural” option and I’m honestly leaning in that direction. I’ll go to previews, go to Bulldog days and see what I think.

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Every high school student or parent obsessing over “what to do” to get into top colleges should read your post #7! Hopefully, it will encourage people to let their kids be kids, who will grow and discover their interests and talents along the way, as you did.

Your whole post was delightfully humble and genuine. Your personality and accomplishments are both impressive.

Lots of luck!

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Do you have a major in mind?

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Both are great schools but Yale has a global advantage of Ivy brand. I would pick Yale. Your mileage may vary.

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@HYPaspirant: Regarding the statement in post #7 that “I did my supplements the night before but they turned out okay and showcased my personality.”

I love this. I do not like the practice of spending weeks or months on college application essays that get polished to the point of erasing the writer’s voice.

I tried to connect with another poster who claims a 36 ACT & a perfect GPA, yet was rejected or waitlisted at all elite privates. I suspect that this person’s application might have been too polished &, therefore, disingenuous.

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@HYPaspirant Loved your post and all of the excellent advice—thank you! It’s so easy to get caught up in this process, and your post was a great reminder that in the end, AO’s are looking for awesome people, not just numbers and EC’s and the real goal should be making sure that who you are comes through in your application.

Can’t wait to see where you end up—because anyone who was drawn to Kenyon in the beginning is a good egg in my eyes (D18 goes there and is very happy). Hope admitted students days at Williams and Yale will make it all clear for you!

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Update: In case anyone’s interested, I ended up choosing Yale. Boola boola! It was agonizing to decline Williams but I had a fantastic experience at Bulldog Days. In the end, Yale’s Directed Studies program, reputation and residential college program pushed me towards New Haven.

Thanks to everyone on this site for your advice! Some have mocked CC for being toxic but I’ve always found it to be one of the internet’s most helpful, civilized and articulate places.

1 Like
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Yale was easily the best choice. Congratulations!

17

Thank you for the update. It’s always nice to hear back from students with the updates. Congratulations!