Help! Should I bother paying application fees for high reach schools?

Parent Cafe
1

<p>My S wants to apply to Stanford, Johns Hopkins, Northwestern, Columbia, UCLA and USC. I think only USC is a reasonable match/reach. Some say, well, you never get another chance to roll the dice, but I wonder if I'm wasting my money. Opinions?</p>

<p>GPA: 4/1 W, 3.9 U/w. Top 5% of class.
ACT super-scored 30
Sat II: 720 math, 730 chemistry
AP 3 both history and chemistry
All APs/Honors he could take except English</p>

<p>EC: Eagle Scout, varsity lacrosse, JV Cross-country, active in Youth Group at church.
Nice essay on building a huge haunted house in our front yard for 4 years.</p>

<p>He has safeties, too, but should I spend the money on the most elite of this group?</p>

<p>Your thoughts?</p>

2

<p>It’s not just about getting in. Some of his test scores seem on the low side for those schools, especially the APs. Do you think he could do well at the top schools? Would he be stay happily in the bottom half of the class, be miserable there, or would he rise to the occasion and outperform his peers?
If you haven’t got a crystal ball, how about a compromise of applying to 3 reach schools and the others must be matches and safeties?</p>

3

<p>Just a note about the ACT super-scoring- many schools only superscore the SAT. I know because we were thinking about this with our d until she did get an ACT score of 30 without super scoring. </p>

<p>I am not sure about acceptance rates at these individual schools. What I would do is one very low acceptance reach school, maybe two higher acceptance reach schools, and the rest matches and safeties. Has he done any applications yet? Choose an early acceptance school or a rolling for a safety and get that done. Then have him work on matches and any reaches. But most of his work should be finding matches. My d’s stats are similar with the exception of non superscored ACT. So far, she has five acceptances. I think it will blunt a possible denial of her reach school_ which is really only a reach because of low acceptance rates, otherwise it is a match.</p>

4

<p>Has he interviewed at any of those schools? Imo, I wouldn’t bother unless he has. </p>

<p>My son’s ACT is slightly higher and his GPA slightly lower, all honors plus college Physics and French. His extra-currs are XC, Track, Jazz & Symphonic Band (1st chairs) Masterminds, Mock Trial, and he has a internship clerking for two Judges at a county court. Imo, he couldn’t get accepted at JH, NW, Stanford or Columbia unless we offered to build them a building.</p>

<p>I don’t know enough about UCLA or USC to comment.</p>

5

<p>My S was in a similar situation 3 years ago–great EC’s. good GPA and good SAT. S only applied to 4 universities. No safeties (all require moving away as we live in a small town), 1 match (we were pretty confident he would get in but no guarantee) two reaches and one high reach. He got into both his reaches and his match (but not his high reach). The decision was pretty easy to make. I think it is important for kids to face reality about their grades and scores and how much money should be spent on applications. There is no reason they can’t whittle down their choices before they apply. I seriously don’t understand those parents that make it “the sky’s the limit” on the # of applications–it’s time for junior to grow up and make some tough decisions.</p>

6

<p>Not paying the fees seems like a vote of no confidence. Yes they are reaches, but so what. It is a small price to pay for chasing a dream. He probably worked hard for the grades, and the test scores are not abysmal. If he is willing to write the essays, etc., why not support him.</p>

7

<p>Is there any that you would absolutely say “no” too? Is there any that you feel you won’t be able to afford knowing how they are with financial aid? These are all across the country are you comfortable sending him to any one of these colleges given the transportation/location logistics? Unless you have a strong reason not to let him go to any of these colleges the costs of apps are a drop in the bucket compared to the costs of college. If he’s got a safety he’s willing to attend then I don’t think it’s a totally unreasonable number of colleges. 7 is a few more than mine applied to, but it’s certainly not out of the realm these days.</p>

8

<p>Are you California residents? I think your son has a reasonable chance of admission at UCLA – so if he is applying to other campuses, its worth tossing in the extra money for the one he really wants – and the app fee is negligible compared to the money you may save if your son opts to attend an in-state public over a less selective but more expensive private college. On the other hand, if you are not Cal residents, then I think its dumb to pay out-of-state tuition for a public U in a state with huge financial problems, so I would nix that. </p>

<p>I really can’t say what your son’s chances are – I will tell you that my daughter was accepted to multiple reach colleges, but I refused to pay her application fee to Brown, which was the ONLY college that ended up outright rejecting her. (2 kids, 21 colleges, 17 acceptances, 3 waitlists, 1 rejection … I think I was pretty good at the “chances” thing, at least when it came to my own kids).</p>

<p>FWIW, my daughter had weaker test scores than your son, roughly equivalent GPA, and was accepted to Berkeley as a spring admit… which was very much what I expected. She turned them down – I think she was rather appalled at the spring admit – but I was well aware of the spring admit policy, so all along thought that her chances were weak for the fall, but pretty good for the spring. I don’t know if UCLA does the same thing, but its worth checking out. </p>

<p>My d. got a fee waiver from her g.c. so she was able to apply to Brown and be rejected without sending a check to their admissions dept. I did end up paying for transmission of test scores, though … one thing to consider with applications is all the collateral costs (test scores, CSS Profile, etc.). </p>

<p>I think it really is up to every family to decide what their college app budget is, and what restrictions, if any, to put on their kid. I don’t think your son’s stats are all that horrible – in other words, I wouldn’t assume that he can’t get into the schools on the list, but a lot depends on intangibles that aren’t really reflected in stats.</p>

9

<p>I let my son apply where he wished, though 1) I gave him a budget that he could not exceed unless he wanted to pay the application fees out of his own savings, and 2) I insisted that he include at least one true safety that was affordable, that had a solid program in his probable major, and where he would be happy. Not to my surprise, he was rejected by his most ambitious choices (his test scores were within range; his GPA and class rank, though good in absolute terms, were on the low side for those super-selective places). But it was easier on our relationship for the words of rejection to come from the university, not from me. He quickly reconciled himself to the slightly less selective, but still excellent, university that he is now attending, and is having a great freshman year there. I think that if I hadn’t let him apply to High Reach U, he would have forever fantasized that he would have gotten in if only his mother had had more faith in his talents.</p>

10

<p>Maybe you can split the difference–ask him to choose 3 out of the 6 to apply to.</p>

11

<p>If it’s not a major hardship I’d pay to potentially avoid years of therapy during wish he might insist that his life would be different if his parents had just believed in him. I am truly amazed by how many adults still carry wounds about this kind of thing.</p>

<p>It’s also a good lesson in reality that is useful at this stage. Somewhere in there many kids believe the colleges will ignore their grades/scores/lack of ECs/suspension…and see how special they are. Debunking this before grad school and employment is worth a lot of money.</p>

12

<p>I think that’s carrying it a little too far (re post #11). I do think it makes sense for the parent to place some limits and ask the kid to winnow the list down some-- or to pay for some of his own apps. I also think it will actually IMPROVE the applicant’s chances at the high reaches if he gives more thought as to why he wants particular schools, and which schools are the best prospects for him – he’s likely to narrow things down to schools that are a better fit or match for what he wants, and write a somewhat better “why Northwestern” essay if he’s been through a process of figuring out why he prefers Northwestern to Columbia and Stanford. </p>

<p>I do think that it’s also a good time for the family to discuss finances – if they are concerned about the cost of a few application fees, they obviously don’t have money to burn. Will they qualify for need based aid at the top private schools? If so, what is the best case scenario for them? For example, it may make more sense to apply to Stanford than to Johns Hopkins if it turns out that Stanford’s aid policies are more beneficial to the family.</p>

13

<p>*My S wants to apply to Stanford, Johns Hopkins, Northwestern, Columbia, UCLA and USC. I think only USC is a reasonable match/reach. Some say, well, you never get another chance to roll the dice, but I wonder if I’m wasting my money. Opinions?</p>

<p>GPA: 4/1 W, 3.9 U/w. Top 5% of class.
ACT super-scored 30
Sat II: 720 math, 730 chemistry
AP 3 both history and chemistry
All APs/Honors he could take except English*</p>

<p>Many things to consider…</p>

<p>1) Can you easily afford all these app costs? (or wll it pinch your budget?)</p>

<p>2) If he gets into these schools, can you afford to send him? (Some may give great aid, but if they’ll expect you to pay more than you can afford, that will be a problem.) Some say JHU isn’t the best with aid…don’t know from personal experience.</p>

<p>3) Do these schools superscore? I know the UCs don’t. If his real composite is an ACT 29, his chances aren’t strong for those top schools unless he has some hook. Is he a URM?</p>

<p>4) Are you instate for the UCs? If not, you’ll pay all costs. If you’re instate and have a good income, don’t expect much aid from UCs. UCs’ aid tends to go to families earning under $70k per year. </p>

<p>5) Can your son pay for some of these apps? </p>

<p>There’s nothing wrong with applying to a couple super reach schools - just to see. I would probably have my kid keep Stanford (because of great FA policies), USC, and UCLA, and maybe drop JHU and Northwestern.</p>

14

<p>Just to give you an idea of his chances at Columbia…</p>

<pre><code>Middle 50% of First-Year Students Percent Who
</code></pre>

<p>Submitted Scores
SAT Critical Reading: 680 - 770<br>
SAT Math: 690 - 780<br>
SAT Writing: 680 - 770
ACT Composite: 31 - 34 </p>

<p>Even with a superscored ACT, an ACT 30 is in the bottom 25%. That’s not a good place to be without some hook…athlete, URM, from an unusual state, etc.</p>

<p>If you’re from Calif (a state with MANY Columbia applicants), the chances wouldn’t be good. Others can correct me if I’m wrong, but I think initially, ivy applicants “compete” with other applicants from their regions.</p>

15

<p>I would ask your son to pay a portion of the application fees if he wants to apply to a large number of schools. My husband and I did that with our son. He wanted to apply to 11 schools (two applications were free, because we graduated from those schools). The price tag still soared to over $500. My son paid one half of the application fees.</p>

16

<p>I am facing the same problem but from the POV of a student. My parents really want me to apply to Harvard and I think I have very slim chances of getting in. I am a good student in all ways (2260 SAT, 42 IB for example) but my ECs are not exceptional and I don’t have any great hooks (full pay Indian from HK - so not bringing much diversity to the school) so I think it’s kind of pointless to apply. What do you suggest I do? Do I go ahead with the application to please my parents or put my foot down and say that I see no point applying to such selective schools? The arguement that it’s a waste of the application fee won’t work here because since we’re full-pay, my parents will say it’s just a drop in the bucket and insignificant.</p>

17

<p>A small note: My son, now a freshman at USC (and loving it!), also applied to Northwestern and was rejected. However I noticed in the USC results thread that some who were rejected by USC were accepted at Northwestern. You never know!</p>

<p>Putturani, I think you should go ahead and apply to Harvard. It will please your parents and none of you will be left wondering.</p>

18

<p>Thanks everyone! I really appreciate midwesterners comment-- would he flourish or be underwhelmed even if he did get accepted. That is why Princeton/Yale are off the list even though we have multiple legacies. It may well apply to the others, where he is at the 25% percentile of admits.</p>

<p>He is committed to applied physics, so this is driving his selection. And in that regard, I think he would do well. The concern about paying the fees is less about the $$ and more about waste, whether it’s his money or mine.</p>

<p>I will take everyone’s advice. Thanks so much!</p>

19

<p>Putturani, IF you got in, would you go? Or would this be yet another argument? If you would attend, then go ahead and apply… it’s only your time and energy to complete the app (laugh here… I know it is all stressful)</p>

<p>Good luck, whatever your choice!</p>

20

<p>bburson, being at the 25th percentile does NOT mean that the school is an impossible reach. My daughter was at that level or lower at several reach colleges that accepted her – including the one she just graduated from. So that’s just one factor – it gets overemphasized on CC simply because it is the one that is easiest to quantify. </p>

<p>However, targeting is important. Admissions is not all numbers driven – it is a holistic process so you have to do some inquiry into “fit” from the college’s point of view - that is, not merely whether your kid thinks the college would fit his needs, but if your kid fits the college’s needs and priorities. </p>

<p>Your son has some strong EC’s and may have some particular academic strengths that will be attractive to schools that on paper look like big reaches. However, those may not be the schools that have the “best” offerings in the areas where your son is strong. A quality about an applicant becomes an asset when it helps build something that is important to the school, but also stands out among the applicants.</p>