Help Talking to Parents?

Parents Forum
1

<p>I finished my freshman year at Penn and am pretty set on being an Econ&Math double major. Due to pressure from parents I applied to Wharton as an internal transfer. It added 0 work for me because all I had to do was submit a 1 page form, no essay. I got an email with my decision yesterday and was rejected.</p>

<p>When I told my parents the news my dad seemed like it really didn't matter and said again that my majors were fine. My mom, however, was very dissapointed. She said that I was setting myself up to not get a job. I tried talking to her and explaining to her that economics majors do in fact get employed (especially from my school) and that I would be fine.</p>

<p>Some background information: When I entered college I pursued premed mostly at my mom's direction. After a semester of Math and Chemistry and talking to upper classmen and professors, I decided that I did not want to pursue premed. After I told my mom that I didn't want to become a doctor I was told that I had to try and transfer to Wharton. In the mean time she was dropping hints about me also switching to an engineering major which she feels would "give me proper training" and "help me get a good job out of college." I have no interest in pursuing engineering and the fields that I would think about going into aren't the big 3 (MechE, ChemE, EE) so the job prospects aren't a whole lot better than a Math major's. </p>

<p>What I really want to do is work for a few years out of college to pay back loans and get a taste for the real world and then go back to school to pursue a PhD in Economics or Business. I find economic and business research fascinating and am really interested in possibly becoming a professor. To do this it is easier to not pursue an undergraduate business degree because the most important part (after research ability, grades, GRE, and recs) is quantitiative ability, which requires the equivalent of a math major at my school. It is a lot easier to puruse this in SAS than Wharton because I'm not playing catch up and have fewer required classes. Also, I know PhD programs are very competitive and the track to becoming a professor is very tough, but I am much more interested in doing this than medicine. Also, this might work out better economically as I can start paying back my undergrad loans before grad school and then have the possibility to be funded for grad school instead of paying 50k+.</p>

<p>Back to the Wharton thing. I didn't get in because I missed the GPA cut off. I got very good grades, but I just couldn't pull the 3.81 necessary to get in. I understand that Wharton will have the best job opportunities for me out of undergrad, but I just don't see how they would be so much better that I am out of luck in Penn SAS. I sometimes get the feeling that my mom would only be happy if I was a ChemE major at Princeton. That way I would be an engineering major, have premed open, and be at a school that will give me the opportunity to get recruited by 99% of the top companies out there (vs 95%). I have tried showing my mom the exit surveys by Penn Econ and Math majors, showing that they get good jobs with good pay, but she doesn't acknowledge them. I've even asked her what she would say if I were at Dartmouth or Brown where there is no business school, engineering is very small, and recruting is about as strong as Penn's. She won't answer.</p>

<p>How do I talk to my mom and show her that she is not "wasting" her money by pursuing the majors I want?</p>

<p>Thanks for reading all this and for any replies.</p>

2

<p>
[quote]
I have no interest in pursuing engineering

[/quote]
then don't. It's hard even for those who have genuine interest!</p>

<p>You are doing fine. And you already have one parent on your side - ask him to talk to your mom.</p>

<p>Your majors are really quite "practical". You will find employment. You will be able to pay back your loans. It is much more fun to study/work in the fields that you enjoy!</p>

3

<p>I put in the engineering thing because at least once a week I'll hear about one of her friends' kids who recently graduated from college and she'll point out his major and job. Most of the people she talks about are either engineers with great jobs or liberal arts majors who had trouble finding a soso job. Then she'll give her pitch for engineering and the conversation will move on. It gets annoying after the 100th time.</p>

4

<p>Venkat, you are at a difficult transition period with your mom. (Or, at least you SHOULD be transitioning....). Seems to me your mom is holding onto your life a little too hard. At this point she should be serving as an advisor to you regarding the life choices you are making, but it sounds like she is trying to control you and to punish you emotionally when you don't make the decisions she wants you to make. That said, she is what she is. Your job is to keep sight of what YOU want to do while maintaining open dialog and a good relationship with your mom. Be patient with her, listen to her, but calmly continue to make the decisions that are best for you. This will not be easy. I think your plan is fine. Your major will give you plenty of career options and I think your plan of working for a little while before you go to grad school is a good to me. At that point you will have a better idea of exactly what you want to do and where you want to go. Good luck!</p>

5

<p>First of all, you should major in what interests you. </p>

<p>A very good friend of mine's husband is head of sales for a major investment bank. He hires a lot of undergrads for sales and trading. We just recently had a discussion about what kind of applicants he looks (my daughter just finished her freshman year). He said that he likes students with liberal arts background over business school because liberal arts focus more on critical thinking. He looks for students that have taken difficult courses (major), not necessary related to finance. Math, biology, physics are all hard majors, so a combination of math and econmics is definitely very impressive. He said it's sufficient for my daughter to take a few courses at her school's business school (AEM) to show interest and aptitude in finance. </p>

<p>I have posted in a few threads that I am a huge fan of liberal arts education. It teaches you how to think, not just how to execute. It also gives you a very good base to go into different careers later. There is no question that Wharton is a great business school, but a liberal arts degree in math and economics is just as good, if not better, for fututure employment.</p>

6

<p>Everyone has given great responses so far. Perhaps given that your mom likes sharing stories of graduates/students with you, you can share one with her. The government chair at my son's graduate dorm was pressured by his parents (or at least his father) to major in physics. He did well in school and was very well liked by fellow graduate students and faculty alike, but killed himself while in graduate school as he wasn't happy - he wanted to be in some "more altruistic" (words I was told by someone who heard the father at the guy's memorial service) field and his parents (or at least father) would not "allow" this (in quotes as the guy was in his 20's and so had the right to tell his father, "Sorry, Dad, but I'm doing this instead") and the father noted at the memorial service that he was to blame for his son's death due to forcing the son into physics (that the parents also didn't approve of the guy's girlfriend not being Indian probably didn't help matters either). Ask your mother if she would rather you be happy and not an engineer or in business or depressed and on some path SHE chose for you. As a parent myself, I have always felt I would rather my child pick his own path whenever possible (i.e. reasonably safe...I won't let him pick a path through a dangerous neighborhood in the middle of the night just because it is more "convenient" if I can help it, which I can't always, but I try) and be happy for his own choices or sad for his own choices and not unhappy thanks to choices someone else made for him.</p>

<p>You know what you want to do. Your parents should both be plenty pleased that you have direction and it's a good one. It's not like you want to open a sweatshop or run a drug ring or anything. You are moral, well-educated, confident, and well-spoken (and I bet a whole bunch of other positive things!) and your parents should, for their own benefit as well as yours, try to concentrate on all the great things you are rather than try to force you into something you have no desire to be.</p>

7

<p>Too bad your mom doesn't have access (an online search would locate it, however) to a recent issue of the UW-Madison alumni magazine- they featured some alumni with economics degrees and some of the impressive jobs they currently held. With the additional math courses you throw in some business courses and you have great job prospects. I'm glad you ditched the premed since it doesn't interest you. You may also want to look into grad school possibilities for a masters in whichever business related field appeals to you at various schools and report to your mother the possibilities with an economics/math major. And, in addition to whatever courses you take for your majors, remember to also take some fun ones for your own enjoyment/enrichment, you will never again have the opportunity to do so. Things like art history, symphony, ballroom dance, others totally irrelevant to you future job, but relevant to being well rounded.</p>

8

<p>Neither Econ nor Math are liberal arts, if that's any consolation.
Having an Econ degree from a great school like Penn will position you very well, in my opinion. Take advantage of any networking opportunities that come your way, don't forget to have fun experiences, and (maybe) reassure your mother that you are taking your post-college debt serioulsy (in case this is motivating your mother- she wants you to pay back loans comfortably; if not, ignore).</p>

9

<p>"A very good friend of mine's husband is head of sales for a major investment bank. He hires a lot of undergrads for sales and trading. We just recently had a discussion about what kind of applicants he looks (my daughter just finished her freshman year). He said that he likes students with liberal arts background over business school because liberal arts focus more on critical thinking. He looks for students that have taken difficult courses (major), not necessary related to finance. Math, biology, physics are all hard majors, so a combination of math and econmics is definitely very impressive. He said it's sufficient for my daughter to take a few courses at her school's business school (AEM) to show interest and aptitude in finance."</p>

<p>Does your husband just happen to like liberal arts students more or does he consciously look to hire liberal arts students? I hope it's not the latter; I'm going to be an econ/finance major at Stern in the fall.</p>

10

<p>Venkat, ask your dad to talk to your mom about it. She doesn't sound like she'll listen if it's coming from you, no matter how sound your reasoning is.</p>

11

<ol>
<li><p>Put up with it a little. She's your mother. It doesn't seem like she's making a serious attempt to get you to change. She's wrong, but it's not that awful. She'll come around in time. </p></li>
<li><p>Don't argue, don't engage. You can treat it lightly. "Wow. That's a great job. It almost makes me wish I liked engineering." "Gee. That sounds awful. I'm glad I'm not an English major."</p></li>
<li><p>Use the same technique back -- but not as part of the same conversation. YOU initiate it: "My friend Doofus from the econ department is really excited. He just got a great job with World Domination Bank." "Whoa! You should hear what some of the math majors are getting offered . . ." You need to educate her, but not all at once. You have plenty of time.</p></li>
<li><p>Your mother's natural instinct will always be to be proud of you. Give her the material to work with -- both your own accomplishments, and context about what your peers are able to achieve -- and she will be.</p></li>
</ol>

12

<p>Your mother might be reassured by learning of the job prospects of Math and Econ majors, from sources other than you. WSJ had a great article on that a while back. Not sure I can find it now; but I'm sure there are many.</p>

<p>You might email her such.</p>

<p>Not that I disagree with advice by the others, esp. the summary just above me by JHS. My contribution is just a sidebar to his #3.</p>

13

<p>
[quote]
Neither Econ nor Math are liberal arts, if that's any consolation.

[/quote]
On the contrary, they both are, but so what. The liberal arts refers to any education that's not primarily vocational, technical or professional in orientation.</p>

14

<p>Venkat, your SIB parents are looking out for your future as defined within the context of the community they (and you?) are part of. You know that the way you earn respect in this community-and demonstrate maturity-has everything to do with (1) conceding your personal priorities and (2) acquiring marketable academic credentials. Personal happiness is nice, but in their eyes, best achieved by playing within the rules of the community. The kids in the community who do this make their parents proud, and often achieve happiness-but sometimes at a very great cost. </p>

<p>Your struggle is more than just the 'separation' from the apron strings that every American kid goes through. Your parents are concerned that you are rejecting much more than their educational suggestions. You know this implicitly, I suspect, and its probably not an easy decision for you. It never is. You have to decide for yourself what set of values you are going to live by and which community is your 'reference point' for making this choice. For those of us born in the US of American parents, the answer seems so obvious. But that isn't the only value system out there, and you have to figure this one out for yourself.</p>

15

<p>Thanks for all the responses. I'll use a lot of this advice you guys gave me to try and talk to my mom to assuage her fears that I'll be unemployed 3 years from now. I think her fear was less unemployment but rather underemployment because I will not have the strongest degree that my school offers. I understand her fears, but I personally feel the path I am charting for myself is best for me.</p>

<p>I'm going to present her with a list of where past econ and math majors from my school were employed (like X at top investment banks, Y at top consulting firms) to show her that they are highly sought after (Credit Suisse seems to love econ majors from my school). I'm also going to tell her some positives that can arise (ability to go abroad, possibility to graduate a semester early and save 25k). It's just tough when today on the ride home from work she mentioned our family friend's son who recently graduated from Maryland with a double major in math and economics and he still has yet to find a job. She acknowledged that the kid isn't the most motivated person in the world and that the exit opportunities from Penn are a lot brighter than the exit opportunities from someone who graduates from Maryland after 5 years.</p>

<p>O, and one more question, what's an SIB? South Indian Brahman?</p>

16

<p>Oh my goodness, mothers like yours make my head spin. If I had to deal with her, I'd probably be a stressed out nervous wreck. </p>

<p>Keep your head up. You're achieving so much more than 99.999% of the college population I'm sure.</p>

<p>Your life is YOUR LIFE. Not your mom's. While it's important to live up to your parent's expectations, don't let them run yours!</p>

17

<p>SIB-South Indian Brahmin. If your folks aren't SIB, they should apply for honorary membership.</p>

18

<p>VenKat, you appear to be a very bright individual! You have thought things through and are making sound decisions. To piggyback off of kristin, some parents do try to live vicariously through their children by pushing them into careers they had hoped to enter. Then I have a coworker whose neice was pushed into medicine by her mom, so that she could find a husband that makes enough money to give her a good life. Ah, what's wrong with picture?! Anyway, keep up the good work and I am sure you will do well in whatever career you embark upon!</p>

19

<p>Venkat,
Remember me from back in the day when we were both dying to get into Penn. Well, If you remember right I was rejected, after I was deferred. I am going through a near similar situation at the moment with both my mom and dad, who have not given up the dream of me perusing nursing and law. I am currently attending a small liberal arts college in Missouri where I have established myself this past year. I learned quickly that nursing is not the correct subject for me to study, at least at William Jewell. I ended up adding finance courses, they really seemed of interest to me. When I go back next fall, I am switching my majors to Finance and biomedical engineering with a premedical track. I don’t know if BME is of any interest to you or if SEAS even has it but maybe, you should consider it. I am told that I won’t succeed at what "I" want to do, and I have learned to not care. It’s your life!</p>

20

<p>Engineering will definately result in great job security. Medicine is even much more. However, if you hate both of them, it will be a torture for you and will not be successful. Engineering is probably the toughest major in college even for people who wants to be in a field. Without making good grades, it will be rough to get a job. Midicine is a whole different game. You need very high GPA + reasonable MCAT to get to Med. school and on top they are looking for an evidence that you really care about medicine (volunteering in a hospital, med. research experience, etc.). You really need to care about it to pursue either engineering or medicine. Otherwise, it is not going to work.</p>