Help! William and Mary or Babson?

Colleges and Universities A-Z College of William and Mary
1

<p>I got into both schools: College of William and Mary and Entrepreneurship program for Babson. I know both are great schools, but I have to choose only one of them. Also, since I am an international student (Korean), I need to think about the career after I graduate from the college. I look forward to working as management consultant, and I could not really say which one is better for me to get a job in US after my graduation. </p>

<p>I need some advice from college confidential!!!!! HELP ME!!!!!</p>

2

<p>W&M is a significantly stronger school, IMO, judging from a quick look at Babson on collegeboard.com</p>

3

<p>Babson and W&M are really different schools. If you’re really into business and know for sure that you will do Business then Babson might be a better choice. W&M has more choices for areas outside of business and is more of a traditional college but I can’t really comment on job prospects. Try to take the size and atmosphere of each college into consideration as well. You will be living there for four years after all. Good luck with making a decision.</p>

4

<p>William and Mary is a really special place, in addition to being a fine school. Babson is okay, but William and Mary is amazing.</p>

5

<p>W&M without a doubt.</p>

6

<p>W and M is a great public college in VA. But for an international
seeking a business career in the U.S., Babson is probably a better
choice.</p>

7

<p>I had never heard of Babson before you posted, but after doing some Googling, I’d say that if you are very dedicated to business and know without a doubt that is what you want to do and you don’t mind the small school feel, then go to Babson. If any of those things is not true I would choose W&M.</p>

8

<p>Indeed, Babson is one of the premier undergraduate bus programs in the US. Much like Olin is becoming in engineering. Much more urbane, diverse.</p>

<p>W&M is as neat as it gets among public universities. Sort of an liberal artsy-farts type of place that struggles w/ its identiy. It’d love to be reborn private, and despite the taxpayer pressures, often tries to act like one. A great many casual observers have no idea it’s public, and it pays a price for trying to be both fish and fowl. Still, the setting, history, and campus make it very special. Academically, it’s good, but the public thing requiring 2/3 admits of Virginians will always keep it intellectually accessible to the masses, altho many want to portray it as elitist. And it is if one is an OOS female. But only for admission.</p>

<p>Babson has its own quirks too, but if business is your gig, this one’s a no-brainer.</p>

9

<p>You know, Whistle Pig, you don’t seem to like W&M much. “Academically, it’s good” is undeservedly faint praise. And artsy-fartsy, really? Many campus visits here, and I don’t get that vibe. (And I like that vibe, so I’d be happy enough to see it at W & M.) Babson may certainly be the best choice for this student, considering his interests. But W & M’s 2/3 instate requirement hardly makes the school “intellectually accessible to the masses.” Can we accept that some public institutions of higher learning are indeed intellectually elite? Most folks would feel comfortable putting W & M in that company. </p>

<p>I’m not sure why you use the word “elitist” – do you mean intellectually rigorous? I know a number of students – past/present, male/female, OOS/otherwise – who wouldn’t agree with the implication that the most difficult thing about W & M is getting in (and that only if you happen to be an OOS female). Or maybe I’m reading you incorrectly?</p>

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<p>Not sure how you come to your conclusion, but I confess to liking Wm&Mary. It’s a most interesting college that has some unique eccentricities, quirks, and aspects. I’m pretty familiar with the place, and while you may not agree, viewing it in comparison to other institutions, yea, I’ll stick with artsy-fartsy (glad you like it even tho you don’t see it in WM). In fact, by law and political reality, it must be constrained from becoming overly intellectually elite. It’s owned, operated, funded by the commonwealth of VA and governed by trustees who are charged to represent the interests of that commonwealth and its institution. Thus, it’ll never be like let’s say a Georgetown, GWU, Babson, Harvard or other Ivy League institutions, MIT, etc. Cannot. It must remain accessible to the students of VA, and thus must take great care not to abandon or ignore its charge. It’s most definitely one of the more selective publics … but public. So no need to take offense. You merely have to understand its charge. And it is most different from many of the others you’d possibly prefer to compare it to. </p>

<p>What I meant, and Jefferson abandoned it essentially for this reason, it is a school for gentlemen (and now gentlewomen as well.) Not very “functional” or the type of place that TJ envisioned necessary for providing a useful education. Look it up in your history of higher ed. Thus he split and designed his own place up the road. And with the Chancellor appointee …wasn’t the Queen of England once the dean of students? …it’s really captivated by what some love, some view as total silliness. Depends on one’s POV. But it definitely seeks to portray social elitism, imo. Perhaps as much or more than any public institution in the land. As for intellectual elitism, it’s not. Princeton Review has it a very good place, but not so rigorous that decent kids can’t get thru. Definitely, especially for OOS females and to lesser degree males, is tougher to get in than to graduate. And there is a very definite schism betwee IS and OOS students, with the latter being far stronger. It’s due to requirement to have 2 playing fields.</p>

<p>Lastly, a fair endowment, modest tuition prevent the College from investing in its facilities, endowed faculty, etc. to keep pace with the places that are going gang-busters in this one. It simply does not have the $$ to compete big time, and will not. And in the near term, the yo-yo president who really epitomized the quirkiness that many so love about WM, the one the politicians quickly fired when they realized what they had, did your favored school no favors. In fact a number of alums in the state government were advocating diminishing state support should the trustees fail to take quick action to remove him. Money from the state talks big time @ WM.</p>

<p>Just a few observations and opinions that are not rooted in warm, fuzzy muskrat love. Let me say again, I like Wm&M. It simply is what it is, and no need to take offense. We can disagree, and it seems we do. But it’s simply a silly argument to attempt to portray this public institution as some bastion of Harvardian intellectualism. What we do know is that many of the OOS students and some of the IS students might be competitive at those type of truly intellectually elite institutions. However, few of the faculty would be considered for tenure at them. It’s apples and oranges there.</p>

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<p>Paragraph One:

  1. Look up the laws regarding W&M and UVA in the state records. They have much more freedom than you suggest.
  2. You seem to imply that Virginia students are not very intelligent.</p>

<p>Paragraph Two:

  1. Are you sure you have your history correct? It was religious disagreement as far as I have been able to find.
  2. Queen of England what? English please!
  3. Come to campus and you’ll notice that success is mostly based on motivation - which comes from both in and out of state students.</p>

<p>Paragraph Three:

  1. The state supplies most of the resources for new buildings. These include the brand new Integrated Science Center, the current renovation of William Barton Rogers Hall, another brand new science building being drafted, a brand new Business School (mostly private funds, actually (iirc)), renovation of Tucker Hall next semester, renovation of Tyler Hall after that, then the renovation of Blow Hall, two recently constructed dorms and one more in the works to finish the triangle, a new 344 million dollar arts center which is just beginning to be worked on, a new addition to the physics building is currently being built, a brand new school of education, new dorm apartments being planned on Richmond Road.</p>

<p>**
Quite frankly Whistle Pig, I don’t think you know even nearly enough to be talking about anything concerning the school. You have your opinions which are based entirely on myth.**</p>

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<ol>
<li> I would have loved to have had the grade inflation that Harvard offers, that would have been awesome.<br></li>
<li> How do you really measure prestige anyway? Everyone uses a different standard. Is it endowment, the age the institution was established, the average SAT scores and GPA of those admitted, the number of out-of-state students as opposed to in-state, the U.S. News ranking, what the most intellectual people in America think or what the general public thinks, or a combination of some or all of these components? You see, the whole prestige factor is a sliding scale which is subject to an individual’s opinion. For that reason I personally do in fact feel that William and Mary is like some of the institutions Whistle Pig mentions (commitment to education/ intellectual environment/ smart students) but different in other ways (endowment). There are certain reasons that some of those other schools will never be what William and Mary is in ways that are not as easily quantifiable. In my opinioin, it simply is not easy to throw one college in one bracket and another in a certain bracket (besides endowment). Endowment surely matters, but you have to have an all-encompassing approach I think.</li>
</ol>

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<p>I have just always assumed that Whistle Pig has sour grapes 'cause she or his/her child did not get admitted and went to Deni$on instead.</p>

<p>I could be wrong.</p>

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<ol>
<li>Not really</li>
<li>Not so, just less stellar than the national pool from whence 1/3 of the student body comes. They are disparate in their abilities. Even the college acknowledges that and would gladly abandon Virginians if their mandate allowed. It does not.
3.Check your history re: TJ’s views of his alma mater. He deemed it generally a misfit for the new nation. </li>
<li>“Success is based on motivation.” Right …and just how might you measure that one? A persuasive, credible answer would make you a gazillionaire. I don’t think so. Remarks like that don’t reflect well upon the institution your attempting to suggest is so stellar and intellectual.</li>
<li>As I indicated, when an institution depends upon the state for resources, as you and I agree Wm&M does, it will not keep pace. btw, your logic of comparing WM facilities to …WM facilities is well, illogical.<br></li>
<li>Indeed, Linda “assumes” much. She may do better doing her homework on W&M vs. her little pile of stones, I suspect. She is right about one thing tho … being wrong. :p</li>
<li>…</li>
</ol>

<p>

</p>

<p>We agree. :D</p>

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<p>Haha I’m loving the TJ debate. WM was a much different place when he went there. There was the Wren building and that was all. Yes, it served the sons of gentlemen. But the biggest issue in those days is that there were younger kids there running around (it served as a Latin school to boys who were beneath college age). How would you like to study with rugrats running around making noise? Although this was the case, it also must be mentioned that William and Mary made a huge impact on who Thomas Jefferson eventually became. There, he met George Wythe who eventually taught him law. He was able to dine at the governor’s palace and participate in political discourse and speak on matters of philosophy. He learned a great deal from the sole non-anglican professor who taught there at the time, William Small, someone he described in his journal as a scholarly hermit who helped stimulate TJ’s thought process. Sure, UVA was to become the face of a new nation - an academic haven with architecture that paid respect to classical intuition but yet showed the ambition of a new country founded upon democratic ideals. BUT, to say that some of Jefferson’s main influences didn’t stem from his experience in learning areas of philosophy at WM would be a grave understatement. What you really have was WM as a catalyst, UVA as a major product, and then WM as a college that slowly expanded its campus offerings over time. Maybe one thing we can all agree on is that TJ rocks! (-:</p>

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<p>

Still not getting it. I haven’t seen anyone attempting to equate W & M with Harvard on this thread. You were first to mention the “H” word here, WP.</p>

<p>I don’t see why I can’t consider W & M intellectually elite and still recognize that Harvard is more so. Very smart people go to W & M. Really. My oldest d, her roommate, and her boyfriend each turned down an Ivy League school to be at W & M instead, and they weren’t the only ones. Three data points don’t prove much, but these bright people found themselves at home in Williamsburg and didn’t pine for greener ivy. </p>

<p>

You’ve really piqued my curiosity here. Would you mind telling us how you know? Really - are you a former W & M prof, student, or administrator? A prof elsewhere - perhaps at one of the institutions you mention above? I’m just wondering how you might “measure” this one.</p>

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<p>

Owned only in the sense that the buildings and grounds are part of the state holdings, although they are independently operated. Operated only in the sense that the Governor appoints committed members of the W&M community to run the Board of Visitors and that it provides less than 20% of the funds to do so. And funded in only the additional sense that it assists with new construction and renovation.</p>

<p>

Fair enough. Making that explicit would be helpful in the future.</p>

<p>

It seems, according to UVA, that it was because he wanted a University that was more accessible to the masses (where your Gentleman argument comes in) and one that was not religiously affiliated. As both UVA and W&M have been ranked as some of the “best deals” in higher education, I think the accessibility argument is null. Secondly, the religious affiliation has been taken care of as well.
[Jefferson</a> on Politics & Government: Publicly Supported Education](<a href=“Home - Thomas Jefferson - LibGuides at UVa Library”>Home - Thomas Jefferson - LibGuides at UVa Library)</p>

<p>

Seriously? Its pretty easy to tell that the students who get their work completed (and numerous other examples of dedication, including leading student organizations, and sports, etc…) seem to have better GPAs, land better jobs and better internships, and receive more awards and scholarships than those who don’t. I’m pretty sure this is self evident to most reasonable people.</p>

<p>

16% of the operating budget will come from the state next year; that I agree with. Much of the financing for new buildings also comes from the state; that I agree with. Half of the funds for endowed professorships used to come from the state; that I agree with. The endowments are held by various organizations associated with the College, not by the state; that I agree with. My list of facility expansions was simply to show that, while the state does not provide amazing resources for the operation of the College, it does provide resources to house the College in a manner that does not limit its ability to compete with other top institutions. Right now, a 6% cut in state funding for the operating budget seems a small price to pay for the reliability of the state over the wild open market where endowments have fallen by around 25%, iirc (and where Schools are disproportionately funded by their endowment that has an effect too). Monetary resources are not W&M’s greatest strength, but that has not seemed to limit its development so far. Classes were suspended ~150 years ago due to a lack of money, so I consider this a big improvement, and it seems to be only getting better (minus the global economic downturn, of course). There is little that will keep W&M from growing its endowment from here on out (which seems to be a major focus of President Reveley).
[William</a> & Mary - W&M Finances and Budgets](<a href=“http://www.wm.edu/about/administration/financialsataglance/index.php]William”>http://www.wm.edu/about/administration/financialsataglance/index.php)</p>

<p>

Ad Hominem, really?</p>

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<p>Whistle Pig tends to toss off throwaway lines with a Ted Baxteresque tone to imply insider knowledge, damning with faint praise and giving out backhanded compliments that he thinks the “muskrats” won’t be able to recognize. His professing of “like” for W&M is belied by his subtle-ish disses - “yo-yo president,” “artsy-fartsy,” “unique eccentricities, quirks,” “a school for gentlemen (and now gentlewomen as well.) Not very “functional” or the type of place that TJ envisioned necessary for providing a useful education,” “few of the faculty would be considered for tenure,” much of it code language in the same vein as “states’ rights” in the '60s and “sanctity of marriage” today.</p>

<p>In this instance, there is a lot about the history of the college, the current culture of the college, and even more about the dynamics within Virginia that he does not know or chooses to ignore because it is inconvenient to “the way he knows it to be.” His tactics are the same as those of a guy in a bar talking trash about the local team, trying to be a big man. And, once called on it, resorts to one-liners and put-downs, another classic tactic employed by the blowhards of the world to appear big by belittling others.</p>

<p>The William & Mary of Jefferson’s day may have been a gentleman’s finishing school, but graduates of today’s William & Mary are both employable and well-read and educated, prepared for making a living in business and prepared for the business of living. And wise enough to not give the Whistle Pigs of the world too much credibility.</p>

<p>Hark upon the gale . . .</p>

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<p>omg both are great schools, and i decided to go to william and mary. so would you guys stop arguing? lol</p>

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<p>Oh I think we established that they were both great schools in their own field. I was just clarifying his rude statements so the truth can be out there.</p>

<p>And congrats on your choice - welcome to the Tribe!</p>